Ten easy things Doran could have done for Quentyn

[Bran Vras]

What do you think about Doran: incompetence, indifference or sabotage? Go to 10) if you do not want to read everything.

1) Give Quentyn a decent escort

Quentyn, Cletus, Willam Wells, Archibald, and Drink are young men, who have known little besides the mountains of Dorne. Maester Kedry was an unknown proposition, but probably not a close advisor of Doran (Arianne does not know him). Who exactly in the expedition was the wise, well informed voice of the interest of Dorne, so valuable for negociations in a critical mission?

2) Advise Quentyn

We spent four chapters in the mind of Quentyn. We read him lamenting the death of Kedry. We read him as he fears to disappoint his father. But he recalls only one advice given by Doran: "Listen to Maester Kedry".

3) Ask Arianne how to leave Dorne secretly

Quentyn is spotted in Planky Town the day before departure and reported to Arianne, who says she knows how to proceed to leave Dorne secretly. The departure is the only point when Doran is in total control of the mission.

4) Make sure the mission reaches Volantis safely

Doran has friends in Lys, has routinely contacts with Tyrosh, and is even friend with the Archon. So crossing the Narrow Sea shouldn't be a big deal. Why did have Quentyn's ship to stop off the coast of the Disputed Lands to be attacked by corsairs? At least that early part of the journey should have been safely accomplished. After all both Drey and Garin are sent across the Narrow Sea without problems.

5) Prepare Quentyn for Volantis or Volantis for Quentyn

Doran has been to Volantis in his youth. Nym is the daughter of a highborn Volantene. So Quentyn should not have had to rely on the tips of the captain of the Meadowlark to find lodging in Volantis. Doran has certainly friends, or friends of friends there who could have helped Quentyn to find a ship. Why not send Nym with them up to Volantis? Quentyn does not have a single thought for his half-Volantene cousin.

6) Prepare Quentyn to meet Queen Daenerys

Doran impressed Mellario with the bright colors he wore when he first met her in Norvos. Aegon is aware that to meet Dany he has to look impressive and bring gifts. Has Quentyn been told not to offer a parchment taken from his boot when he meets the Queen?

7) Instruct Quentyn about the politics of Dorne

Quentyn promises Dany fity thousand spears, that, as Doran acknowledges to Arianne, Dorne does not possess. It's a mistake to mislead your allies and promise them forces you do not have. We see Arianne well versed in history. The only knowledge displayed by Quentyn seems to come from his brief association with Maester Kedry. The boy seems eager to learn but hasn't been taught much.

8) Write a letter to Dany, preferably much before the mission

Barristan says that, when in Qarth, Dany would have been willing to ally with Dorne. Why not have taken some early contact, and sent an emissary, who would have announced the coming of Quentyn and negociated the alliance? Even if the letter only reached Dany with the mission, it wouldn't have hurt to have something written from the hand of the Prince of Sunspear. Dany would have had an idea of the situation of Westeros. Quentyn wouldn't be ridiculed at Meereen's court while he proposed Dany. In that letter, Doran could repeat the discourse of the Water Gardens. Dany would love it. Quentyn's bland mention of the Gardens was only met with polite interest.

9) Carefully assess Dany's situation

Over the cyvasse board, Tyrion and Aegon debate the wisdom to reach Dany versus going to Westeros. According to Tyrion's analysis, Daenerys wouldn't accept Aegon. The analysis applies almost word for word for Quentyn.

10) Give Quentyn the book about dragons Arianne peruses

When Arianne is locked in the tower, a large, seemingly encyclopedic book about dragons is put at her disposal. I am sure Quentyn wouldn't need it, since he has seen with his own eyes the taming of Dornish snakes, which is a lesson good enough to deal with dragons. (It's easy: feed the beast so that it becomes somnolent and obedient and carry it away.)

Not in the top ten:

- use a Tyroshi or Bravoosi ship to reach Meereen (both the Archon and the Sealord are friends apparently),

- adopt Aegon's strategy: wait for Dany in Westeros,

- have sent regularly Oberyn to Yronwood to educate Quentyn, Arianne seemed to enjoy his wisdom,

- send the Sand Snakes instead of Arch, Gerris and co, - try to contact Oberyn's sellsword company,

- make an alliance with the Redwyne (or other reputed Targaryen loyalists, who could have sent a fleet),

- send another ship with troops to escort the mission and pretend the ship went to Lys,

- wait a few years before giving Quentyn responsabilities, like it has been done with Arianne.

[Silent_Hero]

Dorans' plan was Great all Quentyn had to do was reach Dany and propose to her or offer her Dornish support. Only Danys foolishness prevented both as she was dead set on staying in Mereen. The offer was too good to be true except Dany screwed it up and made a huge blunder that will come back to haunt her in the future.

[Milk Steak]

The need for secrecy created a lot of the problems. Doran had to rely on Quentyn's inner circle not his own and could not talk to Arriane. If a hint got back to the Iron throne he was lost, this includes Dorne acting as if they were happy with Doran. There was no way to coordinate with even friendly courts in Essos without word getting out.

Doran chose secrecy over safety for Quentyn and it just didn't work out.

[Free Northman]

I prefer sending a small fleet of 10 warships straight from Sunspear to Meereen, with Quentyn on board. Small enough to avoid serious attention, big enough to resist anything short of the Iron Fleet attacking them.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Oh are we still on this?

[jmastar]

I was very dissapointed with how this played out... Doran is a very clever man and sending his boy out there how he did was poorly played.. Quint has almost no charisma and got completly shitted on like he should have..... Also with the ending for feast and the blood and fire quote i was expecting more.... Seems like Martin could'nt come up with any good ways to resolve this part of the plot so he made him a complete asshat and melted him to the ground :/

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

Seems like Martin could'nt come up with any good ways to resolve this part of the plot so he made him a complete asshat and melted him to the ground :/

That is unless you believe in the sun rises in the west and sets in the east theory which said Quintyn was destined to get burnt back in GoT.

I can't remember which book I read it in but its stated the Dorne leadership are in constant fear of Varys spies and so everything Doran does has to be very secret, he doesn't trust anyone. That's why the mission is a yronwood one. Martel and Yronwood have made a point of displaying animosity to one another so a group of Yronwood's travelling to Essos wouldn't raise the eyebrows on those spying on the Martels. I doubt Doran even met Quintyn before they set off, I think he trusted it all to Yronwood & he showed to be completely incompetant.

[Lummel]

I was very dissapointed with how this played out... Doran is a very clever man and sending his boy out there how he did was poorly played.. Quint has almost no charisma and got completly shitted on like he should have..... Also with the ending for feast and the blood and fire quote i was expecting more.... Seems like Martin could'nt come up with any good ways to resolve this part of the plot so he made him a complete asshat and melted him to the ground :/

The problem was that Doran assumed that his son would be like him, while his son wanted to be worthy of his father and do great deeds like a Romantic hero. An alliance with Dany and a seat on her small council would have been enough to get the Blood and Fire that Dorne wants but Quentyn felt that he needed to prove himself too much. Tragic, but we also saw in AFFC that Arienne and the Sand Snakes are all pretty rubbish at thinking things through (oberyn too come to think of ASOS) so Doran probably should have built into his plan that he was having to rely on broken straws to achieve his plans.

Its a re-run of the Robb and Edmure situation. Too many assumptions make an ass of u and me.

[alienarea]

Two words: Fireproof underwear.

[Eejit]

3) Ask Arianne how to leave Dorne secretly

Quentyn is spotted in Planky Town the day before departure and reported to Arianne, who says she knows how to proceed to leave Dorne secretly. The departure is the only point when Doran is in total control of the mission.

It's been shown that Arianne isn't quite as good at making plans secret as she thought.

[Ladywhiskers]

What do you think about Doran: incompetence, indifference or sabotage? Go to 10) if you do not want to read everything.

10) Give Quentyn the book about dragons Arianne peruses

When Arianne is locked in the tower, a large, seemingly encyclopedic book about dragons is put at her disposal. I am sure Quentyn wouldn't need it, since he has seen with his own eyes the taming of Dornish snakes, which is a lesson good enough to deal with dragons. (It's easy: feed the beast so that it becomes somnolent and obedient and carry it away.)

This bit with the book is very disturbing. One gets the distinct impression Doran set Quentyn up to fail. If Arianne weren't already in line ahead of him, I'd say he deliberately killed him off to pave the way for her, but the way was already clear--she was already legally the heir.

[The GRRumbler]

I think Doran expected Dany to be a little more resonable and understand that such pact would give her a good foothold in Westeros for her to stard the conquering, too bad she disagrees at this point.

About quentyn getting barbecued, thats all on him, i don't remember Doran sending him to do that.

I believe the plot was very well organized, too bad they lost their Maester in the fighting against the pirates, i believe it would turn out very differently if the Maester had the chance to talk with Dany.

This whole part of the story is another example of grrm's purpose to show that, no matter how much you plan, there will always be things happening that you didn't, and just couldn't, plan for, there's always the unexpectable.

[Bran Vras]

This bit with the book is very disturbing. One gets the distinct impression Doran set Quentyn up to fail. If Arianne weren't already in line ahead of him, I'd say he deliberately killed him off to pave the way for her, but the way was already clear--she was already legally the heir.

Yes Ladywhiskers. We know from Tyrion's chapters in ADwD that books about dragons are rare and important. Quentyn leaves for Meereen with the knowledge that Dany has dragons. It's incomprehensible that Doran has not given him the book.

I have advocated that Doran was not interested in Quentyn's success for some time. But I found that few people are willing to consider this idea seriously (slayer420 has been a notable exception). The idea has implications that are hard to accept, but I'd like to come across more boarders prepared to discuss that in detail.

[vogorroswhore]

I have advocated that Doran was not interested in Quentyn's success for some time. But I found that few people are willing to consider this idea seriously (slayer420 has been a notable exception). The idea has implications that are hard to accept, but I'd like to come across more boarders prepared to discuss that in detail.

I consider this idea seriously. Between the piss-poor help Doran gives Quentyn, his plan to reinstate Arianne as his heir after her secret betrothed got crowned to death (in spite of the whole Myrcella debacle), and the fact that he hardly ever mentions Quentyn at all, he couldn't seem less invested in the Quentyn thing. Plus, it's a pretty big gamble to assume that reptilian-faced Quentyn would be able to successfully woo Daenerys who has dragons and is apparently super smoking hot. It's possible Doran shrugged and was like, "If this works, sweet. If not, oh well," then went back to watching kids skinny dip and bitching about his gout.

[Stark@heart]

Or why couldn't Doren have snuck Viserys & Dany into Dorne and given them a home. They'd be just two more naked kids in the pools, right?

[Bran Vras]

It's been shown that Arianne isn't quite as good at making plans secret as she thought.

I was sarcastic. Doran should know and, I believe, knows how to leave Dorne secretly. I guess that undermines the notion that the secrecy of the mission was primordial for Doran.

Or why couldn't Doren have snuck Viserys & Dany into Dorne and given them a home. They'd be just two more naked kids in the pools, right?

I have thought about this. I have hesitated to say it, because it can be objected that bringing Viserys and Dany to Dorne would have been dangerous. It would have been a casus belli with Robert. But providing Dany and Viserys means of living in Essos was easily within Doran means. I have articulated my ideas in this thread: http://asoiaf.wester...ct-apocryphal/.

House Martell's non existent help for Dany and Viserys fits well with the apparent lack of investment of Doran in the success of Quentyn's expedition. But I have learned that those questions are better discussed separately.

[Max Stark]

I think the problem wasn't Doran's lack of help for the expedition, after all he had to be very careful to keep it secret. But Quentyn didn't live up to the high expectations of his father. Quentyn couldn't handle Daenerys unexpexted resistance.

[Net-Viper X]

What if the Quentyn that went to Essos was a doppleganger of some sort, sent to check things out and guage the reaction of Dany to the possibility of forming an alliance with Dorne. The guy seemed to be rather clueless about a lot more things than one would expect from a person of his standing, so perhaps it was someone who looked remarkably similar, or even made to look similar by some means. Educating a double like this would be tricky and surely end up with some pretty big gaps in the knowledge the real Quentyn would have had.

This isn't really a true theory of mine, more of a what if scenario but who knows.

[the average Other]

I have thought about this. I have hesitated to say it, because it can be objected that bringing Viserys and Dany to Dorne would have been dangerous. It would have been a casus belli with Robert. But providing Dany and Viserys means of living in Essos was easily within Doran means. I have articulated my ideas in this thread: http://asoiaf.wester...ct-apocryphal/.

House Martell's non existent help for Dany and Viserys fits well with the apparent lack of investment of Doran in the success of Quentyn's expedition. But I have learned that those questions are better discussed separately.

I've said it before and I say it again: Somebody did help Dany and Viserys during their childhood in exile, and for all we know it was Doran. Dany and Viserys didn't live on the streets and starve! They had clothes, food, protection, and always new rich hosts who invited them to stay for a while and made sure they had everything they needed. Someone must have been pulling strings behind the scenes.

But I do agree that on the whole Doran is seriously lacking as a player of the game of thrones. He makes very detailed and careful plans, but he doesn't seem to plan for contingencies and as a result he doesn't adapt that well when something unexpected happens. I don't think he intentionally sabotaged Quentyn's mission. Doran just suddenly found himself in a situation where he had to do something, quickly, and he's badly equipped to act efficiently under pressure like that.

What I find a whole lot more incomprehensible, though, is that he hasn't been able to keep a better hold on his own household. How is it possible that the Prince of Dorne hasn't been able to weed out foreign spies in his own palace? If he'd done that, or if he at least knew who they are, he'd have had easier time planning and executing Quentyn's mission.

[Bran Vras]

I've said it before and I say it again: Somebody did help Dany and Viserys during their childhood in exile, and for all we know it was Doran. Dany and Viserys didn't live on the streets and starve! They had clothes, food, protection, and always new rich hosts who invited them to stay for a while and made sure they had everything they needed. Someone must have been pulling strings behind the scenes.

Since I see Doran Martell as a phony Targaryen loyalist, I'd very much interested in hearing your arguments for this (recall that Viserys sold his mother's crown and was called the Beggar King). Perhaps you can even continue the discussion in the thread about the Braavos pact I mentioned (we are talking here about Quentyn, after all).

But I do agree that on the whole Doran is seriously lacking as a player of the game of thrones. He makes very detailed and careful plans, but he doesn't seem to plan for contingencies and as a result he doesn't adapt that well when something unexpected happens. I don't think he intentionally sabotaged Quentyn's mission. Doran just suddenly found himself in a situation where he had to do something, quickly, and he's badly equipped to act efficiently under pressure like that.

When someone suggested that having to hurry was the cause of not giving the book about dragons to Quentyn, I replied this:

A maester was summoned to participate in the mission, a maester apparently skilled in the languages of the Free Cities and Slaver's bay. So some thinking has been devoted to what kind of knowledge would be useful for the mission. Moreover maester Kedry had given books to Quentyn, that Quentyn dutifully read on the Meadowlark. (Some of those all important books were about the Volantene political system.) Since the dragon book was deliberately given to Arianne, it was not a tome accumulating dust in some disaffected library, but something very much in Doran Martell's mind. Moreover, it was known from the start that the mission was about dragons. So, no, it can't be explained as an oversight in an underprepared journey.

Finally, my belief, for what it is worth, is that Doran knew exactly what he was doing in all of this. We are given amply enough indication of that with the discourse over the cyvasse board.