Ten easy things Doran could have done for Quentyn

[brashcandy]

1) The horn is something that Crow's Eye found on his extensive travels, most likely in the ruins of Valaria. Now, no one else ever goes near Valaria and no one else seems to have heard anything about dragon taming horns, let alone that one exists and is in the hands of the Ironborne.

2) Doran wants (or seems to want) a return of a Targaryean to the throne with a Dornish husband/wife and vengeance for his sister and her children. To this end he requires Dany and her dragons. Conversely Crow's Eye wants (or seems to want) to conquer the Seven Kingdoms himself and rule over them. To this end he requires the dragons, and he thinks that Dany would make a very good bride. Doran's plan cannot succeed without Dany (he has no other way to claim the Throne) but Euron's certainly can.

Wanderer,

Doran's plans could have succeeded without Dany. The question concerns what is most important to Doran? Avenging his family or having an heir to the Iron throne? IMO, the former is and should be more important to him as it involves not only familial honour, but the pride of a nation that is calling for vengeance for all the slights against Dorne. As it is, Doran's real agenda in sending Quentyn to Dany was for fire and blood. Given Quentyn's looks, and the rumours floating around about Dany, it's unlikely Doran would have hoped for more than for her to deliver her dragons to Dorne, and agree to a "let's help each other" arrangement. If Quentyn had been successful in stealing the dragons, do you really think Doran would have been lamenting the loss of Daenerys?

[TheWanderer]

Doran's plans could have succeeded without Dany. The question concerns what is most important to Doran? Avenging his family or having an heir to the Iron throne? IMO, the former is and should be more important to him as it involves not only familial honour, but the pride of a nation that is calling for vengeance for all the slights against Dorne.

You're entitled to your opinion, though I disagree. It seems to me that Doran has acknowledged that killing the Lannisters is hollow and that only by undoing everything they worked for can he claim real vengeance. After all, it is probably within Dorne's power (certainly with Tywin dead and Cersei alienating all their allies) to exterminate the Lannisters, dragons are nice but not really necessary for this. On the other hand, with Dany and the dragons he can not only destroy the Lannisters as a family but also everything they've worked towards in the last decade, smash their legacy and return Dorne (and his family) to their rightful place as rulers of the seven kingdoms. This is not possible without Dany in my opinion.

[Bran Vras]

That wasn't intended to be sarcastic, it was supposed to be an analogy with a bit of wit. Apparently that failed, so I apologize.

Ok.

You (and others) have expected Quentyn to quote liberally from the book while thinking about stealing dragons and use the fact that he has not done so to indicate that he did not read it. I think this argument is poor.

Paraphrasing other people is acceptable. But it's more fair if you quote before paraphrasing.

And as to the wikipedia thing. Again this was meant as an analogy and at some point all analogies break down. Wolves are after all real and easily study-able, dragons disappeared hundreds of years ago and as such are not. I suppose I could have used dodo birds, but they're not exactly dangerous which I felt was more important.

I am not sure you are aware that when the useful books about dragons were written, dragons were alive. (See Septon Barth etc.)

[Bran Vras]

Anyways, do we have any evidence that Doran could have known about Aegon? My thoughts are that he learnt of Viserys's slide into madness and that's why the marriage pact was left unpursued. But what were his plans for Arianne in terms of marriage options?

It's true that Doran has more reason to support Aegon, his nephew, than to support Dany and Viserys. On the other hand, if Aegon is a Blackfyre, recall that the Martells were always Targ loyalists during the Blackfyre rebellions.

There is a remote possibility that Arianne's betrothed was not Viserys (hint: the molten pot of gold).

try this.

In ADWD he says that he has friends in Kings Landing passing him information, (potentially Varys feeding him bits and pieces directly or indirectly for his own ends) that could easily be his source of the Dany, dragons and Meereen information.

Thanks. There is a link to a nice pdf file with a complete timeline at the end of the thread. I got a copy of the file, which is quite heavy. Apparently, Quentyn left Dorne very early, just before Oberyn went to King's Landing to meet his fate. So Doran couldn't be informed by the sailors. I repeat my suggestion that Doran has a special channel of information.

I doubt it is Varys, since Doran fears Varys' spies when Quentyn leaves. I doubt it is Doran's informer in King's Landing (who, I suspect, is Lady Taena Merryweather). Then Alleras in Oldtown is a possibility through the magic candles. Otherwise, there is the Free Cities connection.

Edit: thanks are due to Errand Bard for the timeline and Unbloodraven for the pdf file.

[brashcandy]

It's true that Doran has more reason to support Aegon, his nephew, than to support Dany and Viserys. On the other hand, if Aegon is a Blackfyre, recall that the Martells were always Targ loyalists during the Blackfyre rebellions.

There is a remote possibility that Arianne's betrothed was not Viserys (hint: the molten pot of gold).

And the Yronwoods supported the Blackfryes? It seems likely that we're going to see some of the old divisions in Dornish allegiance once again now that Aegon has returned.

Thanks. There is a link to a nice pdf file with a complete timeline at the end of the thread. I got a copy of the file, which is quite heavy. Apparently, Quentyn left Dorne very early, just before Oberyn went to King's Landing to meet his fate. So Doran couldn't be informed by the sailors. I repeat my suggestion that Doran has a special channel of information.

This is interesting. It does mean that Doran knew Dany's whereabouts pretty early in the game...

[The GRRumbler]

In AFFC Euron talks about the dragons, Aurane Waters mentions them to the council, the whole purpose of Quentyn going to Dany was because of the dragons. People know about them, it just hasn't been widespread, and a lot of people still believe that they're only sailors' tales.

And i thought the point was to confirm the agreement and seal Dorne's support to Dany's cause.

[brashcandy]

And i thought the point was to confirm the agreement and seal Dorne's support to Dany's cause.

Dorne's support of Dany was contingent on her agreeing to the marriage pact and thereby letting Dorne secure the use of her dragons. It is anyone's guess if Doran would have still supported her conquest with no marriage arrangement and no dragons. That's why Quentyn got desperate and decided to steal them, because with the marriage pact in tatters, and Dany missing, the next best thing was to get the dragons.

[Bran Vras]

And the Yronwoods supported the Blackfryes? It seems likely that we're going to see some of the old divisions in Dornish allegiance once again now that Aegon has returned.

Yes, what will happen at House Yronwood will be interesting: the heir Cletus is now dead, the eldest daughter (and heir apparent, and former love interest of Quentyn) is married to the Allyrion heir, the Dornish army is under Yronwood command at the Boneway, and controls all movement between Dorne and the Stormlands, and there is now possibly a Blackfyre resurgence. Another character to watch there is the younger daughter, Gwyneth, dark haired and in a family of blond people with blue eyes. Quentyn had intriguing reminiscences of her.

I wonder whether the first Arianne chapter in the TWoW happens at Yronwood which is on the way to

where the second chapter happens.

We might be given hints there of the Blackfyre nature of Aegon, as it is possible that old allegiances will be revived (if they have not been maintained all along by Varys).

[Bran Vras]

And why do you think that are books that give even the slight notion of how the Targs controlled their Dragons? If the were such books someone would surely give one to Dany as a gift!

A good point considered (upthread already and) by Illyrio himself, who has given Aegon's party books in preparation to meet Daenerys.

Tyrion had read much and more of dragons through the years. The greater part of those accounts were idle tales and could not be relied on, and the books that Illyrio had provided them were not the ones he might have wished for.

It undermines further the notion that it was reasonable from Doran not to provide Quentyn the book. (And Doran's book seems to be of greater interest. One among several details that show how Illyrio's preparation to meet Daenerys compares favourably to Doran's).

[TheWanderer]

It undermines further the notion that it was reasonable from Doran not to provide Quentyn the book.

It's worth noting that Quentyn is traveling undercover and by sea. Carrying a large and impressive looking book on dragons whilst pretending to be a wine-merchant or a sell-sword would certainly call your cover into question. Not to mention the simple risk of it being damaged during a storm at sea (quite common in the fall). Seems to me that a book like Doran's is best kept safe in Dorne, though perhaps copies could be made (and be some of the other files that Quentyn has).

[Bran Vras]

It's worth noting that Quentyn is traveling undercover and by sea. Carrying a large and impressive looking book on dragons whilst pretending to be a wine-merchant or a sell-sword would certainly call your cover into question. Not to mention the simple risk of it being damaged during a storm at sea (quite common in the fall). Seems to me that a book like Doran's is best kept safe in Dorne, though perhaps copies could be made (and be some of the other files that Quentyn has).

Fair objection. But note that Quentyn is travelling with the pact, which is even more compromising, if less cumbersome (and he carries as well other documents bearing the seal of Sunspear). Seen from Sunspear, transporting the book would have been only a minor complication, since the original plan was to go to Meereen as wine merchants.

[Bran Vras]

While I am at it, Tyrion recalls what he has read in a fragment of Septon Barth's book (this book seems to be a naturalistic account of dragons, and appears to be a prime candidate to be the book in the tower).

Every other man seemed to be clutching [a crossbow], with a quiverfull of bolts hanging from his hip.

If anyone had thought to ask him, Tyrion could have told them not to bother. Unless one of those long iron scorpion bolts chanced to find an eye, the queen’s pet monster was not like to be brought down by such toys. Dragons are not so easy to kill as that. Tickle him with these and you’ll only make him angry.

The eyes were where a dragon was most vulnerable. The eyes, and the brain behind them. Not the underbelly, as certain old tales would have it. The scales there were just as tough as those along a dragon’s back and flanks. And not down the gullet either. That was madness. These would-be

dragonslayers might as well try to quench a fire with a spear thrust. “Death comes out of the dragon’s mouth,” Septon Barth had written in his Unnatural History, “but death does not go in that way.”

It is a misfired crossbow bolt that first angered Viserion. So we can infer that Quentyn did not read Barth's Unnatural History, and that books about dragons can contain information useful to kidnap them (once again, I am not saying that Quentyn should have known how to kidnap the dragons, but he should could have had the same recollection than Tyrion when he saw that the Windblown had brought crossbows.)

One more thing: Quentyn is a serious reader with a good memory: he recalls everything he has read about Volantis, and even a minor fact about dragons.

[brashcandy]

Yes, what will happen at House Yronwood will be interesting: the heir Cletus is now dead, the eldest daughter (and heir apparent, and former love interest of Quentyn) is married to the Allyrion heir, the Dornish army is under Yronwood command at the Boneway, and controls all movement between Dorne and the Stormlands, and there is now possibly a Blackfyre resurgence. Another character to watch there is the younger daughter, Gwyneth, dark haired and in a family of blond people with blue eyes. Quentyn had intriguing reminiscences of her.

I wonder whether the first Arianne chapter in the TWoW happens at Yronwood which is on the way to

where the second chapter happens.

We might be given hints there of the Blackfyre nature of Aegon, as it is possible that old allegiances will be revived (if they have not been maintained all along by Varys).

Yeah, it was an interesting contrasting detail that made me go hmmm. Almost as if GRRM was hinting about mistaken identities or something. Not to mention that Quentyn seemed to be on the way of developing a relationship with this girl.

[brashcandy]

While I am at it, Tyrion recalls what he has read in a fragment of Septon Barth's book (this book seems to be a naturalistic account of dragons, and appears to be a prime candidate to be the book in the tower).

It is a misfired crossbow bolt that first angered Viserion. So we can infer that Quentyn did not read Barth's Unnatural History, and that books about dragons can contain information useful to kidnap them (once again, I am not saying that Quentyn should have known how to kidnap the dragons, but he should have had the same recollection than Tyrion when he saw that the Windblown had brought crossbows.)

One more thing: Quentyn is a serious reader with a good memory: he recalls everything he has read about Volantis, and even a minor fact about dragons.

Yes, so once again more proof that one can learn valuable info about dragons from books, and if that was only a fragment from the book, imagine what over valuable insider knowledge it could have contained. Of course, we have no solid evidence that this is indeed the book in Dorne, but it's intriguing :)

[Bran Vras]

Yes, so once again more proof that one can learn valuable info about dragons from books, and if that was only a fragment from the book, imagine what over valuable insider knowledge it could have contained. Of course, we have no solid evidence that this is indeed the book in Dorne, but it's intriguing :)

With what he have, we can't be sure that the book in the tower is Barth's Unnatural History.

Let's try to see what we can say. We have to take into account Arianne's reaction to "a huge tome about dragons that somehow made them about as interesting as newts". Tyrion seems to consider that there are few books about dragons that are not made of "idle tales". Here is Tyrion in ADwD:

the dwarf was writing down what he recalled concerning the mating habits of dragons, on which subject Barth, Munkun, and Thomax held markedly divergent views.

Let's agree that any serious book about a beast would say something about its mating habits. It's not unreasonable to infer that the list of authoritative books about dragons (at least those known to Tyrion) of a naturalistic nature is not much longer than the works of Barth, Munkun and Thomax.

Grand Maester Munkun's tome is called The Dance of the Dragons, A True Telling. It is mentioned when Tyrion meets Haldon. It really tells the history of the Dance of the Dragons. As it happens, it's a subject of interest to Arianne. We know that because she has mentioned Christon Cole the Kingmaker, a pivotal character of the story, to Arys Oakheart. Hence, the book in the tower is not Munkun's.

Maester Thomax’s Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons is at the library at the Wall, and is mentioned in AFfC. Judging from the title, it's rather a history book with a side interest in Dragons. Arianne likes ancient history, when it's not too ponderous. Hence, it does not seem to be the book in the tower either.

Other books known to Tyrion include Galendro's The Fires of the Freehold (a history of Valyria) and The Death of Dragons/Blood and Fire (which is anonymous), but they seem to be of a different nature.

So, if we limit ourselves to Tyrion's considerable knowledge, we are left with Barth's Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History.

Note : In AFfC, Maester Aemon asks Sam to read from Barth's book during his last days. Both Tyrion and Aemon express respect, if not admiration, for Septon Barth's work.

I guess Septon Barth would deserve a thread of his own (and I would have a few more things to say).

[TheWanderer]

It is a misfired crossbow bolt that first angered Viserion. So we can infer that Quentyn did not read Barth's Unnatural History, and that books about dragons can contain information useful to kidnap them (once again, I am not saying that Quentyn should have known how to kidnap the dragons, but he should could have had the same recollection than Tyrion when he saw that the Windblown had brought crossbows.)

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Quentyn note how useless the crossbow will be (something about only making it worse) when he first notices it, which happens to be moments before his fiery death? Just because he doesn't inform the Windblown in the first place (or maybe he did and they ignored him) and doesn't go into quite the same depth about how to injure dragons as Tyrion (info that would be repetitive for us and useless for him) doesn't mean that he didn't read the same thing.

[brashcandy]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Quentyn note how useless the crossbow will be (something about only making it worse) when he first notices it, which happens to be moments before his fiery death? Just because he doesn't inform the Windblown in the first place (or maybe he did and they ignored him) and doesn't go into quite the same depth about how to injure dragons as Tyrion (info that would be repetitive for us and useless for him) doesn't mean that he didn't read the same thing.

Here's the exact quote:

Viserion lost interest. The dragon turned back toward the Windblown and lurched toward the door. Perhaps he could smell the blood of the dead guards or the meat in the butcher's wagon. Or perhaps he had only seen that the way was open.

Quentyn heard the sellswords shouting. Caggo was calling for the chains, and Pretty Meris was screaming at someone to step aside. The dragon moved awkwardly on the ground, like a man scrabbling on his knees and elbows, but quicker than the Dornish prince would have believed. When the Windblown were too late to get out its way, Viserion let loose with another roar. Quentyn heard the rattle of chains, the deep thrum of a crossbow.

"No," he screamed, "no, don't don't," but it was too late. The fool was all that he had time to think as the quarrel caromed off Viserion's neck to vanish in the gloom. A line of fire gleamed in its wake - dragon's blood, glowing red and gold.

Now from the way it is written, there's no indication that Quentyn necessarily had any preknowledge of the way to not go about taming a dragon. All of his information in this chapter is based on what he has seen Daenerys do, and the reason he appears so upset with the crossbow is because he had realised that the dragon was merely trying to get food or perhaps to get out of the pit, not to harm the sellswords. So he realises the danger of making the dragon angry, and he's right.

[brashcandy]

Some other interesting quotes from that chapter for analysis:

Quentyn did not want to die at all. I want to go back to Yronwood and kiss both your sisters, marry Gwyneth Yronwood, watch her flower into beauty, have a child by her. I want to ride in tourneys, hawk and hunt, visit with my mother in Norvos, read some of those books my father sends me. I want Cletus and Will and Maester Kedry to be alive again.

Later, Quentyn shows some knowledge of dragons:

"The pit has slowed their growth." Quentyn's readings had suggested the same thing had occurred in the Seven Kingdoms. None of the dragons bred and raied in the Dragonpit of King's Landing had ever approached the size of Vhagar or Meraxes, much less of the Black Dread, King Aegon's monster.

Obviously however, this is commonplace knowledge about dragons that would have been available to most highborn children. Nothing speaking of in-depth study on dragon habits and the like.

The earlier quotation is interesting as it shows Quent is in the habit of receiving books from his father - why didn't Doran send the one in the tower in preparation for Quentyn's journey?

And to pre-empt the objection that will surely be made that Quentyn didn't come for the dragons but for Dany. Here's a few of his thoughts on the matter:

They do not see. His friends had lost sight of his true purpose here. The road leads through her, not to her. Daenerys is the means to the prize, not the prize itself.

The dragons, Prince Quentyn thought. Yes. We came for the dragons. He felt as though he might be sick. What am I doing here? Father, why? Four men dead in as many heartbeats, and for what? "Fire and blood," he whispered, "blood and fire."

[Bran Vras]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Quentyn note how useless the crossbow will be (something about only making it worse) when he first notices it, which happens to be moments before his fiery death?

Brashcandy has quoted the relevant passage. You offer another argument.

Just because he doesn't inform the Windblown in the first place (or maybe he did and they ignored him) and doesn't go into quite the same depth about how to injure dragons as Tyrion (info that would be repetitive for us and useless for him) doesn't mean that he didn't read the same thing.

That doesn't seem to work either. Quentyn recalls one single thing he has read about dragons:

None of the dragons bred and raised in the Dragonpit of King’s Landing had ever approached the size of Vhagar or Meraxes, much less that of the Black Dread, King Aegon’s monster.

and that's something we already knew from Barristan (in ASoS)

Yet even so, it was noted that none of the pit dragons ever reached the size of their ancestors. The maesters say it was because of the walls around them, and the great dome above their heads

By the way, Quentyn saying that he recalls having read a book about dragons that his father showed him would be informative to us.

In all fairness, given all that, is it reasonable to believe that Quentyn has read a valuable book about dragons and not mentioned it?

[TheWanderer]

Now from the way it is written, there's no indication that Quentyn necessarily had any preknowledge of the way to not go about taming a dragon. All of his information in this chapter is based on what he has seen Daenerys do, and the reason he appears so upset with the crossbow is because he had realised that the dragon was merely trying to get food or perhaps to get out of the pit, not to harm the sellswords. So he realises the danger of making the dragon angry, and he's right.

We don't know why exactly Quentyn objects to the crossbow shot. However it is pretty clear that he knows the crossbow will not kill or severely injure the dragon, something which is clearly not common knowledge. We know from Tyrion that there are books that relate this knowledge so I don't see why its unreasonable to think that this is where Quentyn got the info from.

Also, I already pointed out why using things he has seen work is better than using info he has read about. There is really nothing to vouch for the accuracy of the books (and Tyrion points out that some are quite useless) whereas Dany's actions were clearly successful and thus repeatable.

Obviously however, this is commonplace knowledge about dragons that would have been available to most highborn children.

Not really sure how you can assume that. It might seem self-evident that walls slow their growth but that didn't stop the Targ doing it for generations, despite the fact that this was the source of their power. Barristan knows about it but he's also Commander of the Kingsguard and served two Targaryeans, who might have figured it out.

The earlier quotation is interesting as it shows Quent is in the habit of receiving books from his father - why didn't Doran send the one in the tower in preparation for Quentyn's journey?

Maybe he did. We know that Quentyn sees his father before his departure, maybe he returns the book because he doesn't need it (his excellent memory has been noted) and doesn't want to risk it (for reasons mentioned above) and thinks that it might be useful for Arianne to read (since if the dragons come to Dorne it'd be good to have the whole royal family knowledgeable about them).

and that's something we already knew from Barristan (in ASoS)

Barristan mentioned it in passing two books (and several years) earlier, Tyrion's points were discussed in detail only a few chapters earlier. I don't really see the comparison.

By the way, Quentyn saying that he recalls having read a book about dragons that his father showed him would be informative to us.

And Quentyn does say this, as Brashcandy's quotes show. "Quentyn's readings had suggested the same". Note also that readings is plural, meaning he's read at least two sources on dragons.