240 replies to this topic

[Bran Vras]

brashcandy, on 27 February 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

I agree, so the question remains. It's especially glaring in light of how careful Doran was in making sure he was presentable when he went to meet his bride in Norvos.

Yes, Brashcandy, it's striking to juxtapose the recollection by Doran of his first encounter with Mellario:

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“The bears danced and the bells rang, and the prince wore red and gold and orange. My lady asked me who it was who shone so bright.”

with the reaction of Dany when she saw Quentyn:

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Frog, the squire, was the youngest of the three, and the least impressive, a solemn, stocky lad, brown of hair and eye. His face was squarish, with a high forehead, heavy jaw, and broad nose. The stubble on his cheeks and chin made him look like a boy trying to grow his first beard.

Apparently, Quentyn was not privy to Doran's favourite recollections.

[Ser Lepus]

Bran Vras, on 27 February 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

We don't know how much Doran knew about Dany's situation when Quentyn left. I realized today that the news of Dragons in Qarth (via sailors) reached Arianne at the same time than the news of the death of Tywin. When Quentyn left for Meereen, Tywin was alive (see quote upthread). So Doran was better informed than he could be by whatever was reported by ships coming from Slaver's Bay. (It's not the first time I mention this point. But I still don't have any explanation for it and it shows that we shall not underestimate Doran's knowledge.)

GRRM is going to hate you for discovering another flaw in his timeline...

[Bran Vras]

I think there is amply enough evidence of it in the thread already. I just found another obvious indication that Doran Martell did not plan well for Quentyn. Quentyn thinks before meeting Dany.

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It runs in the blood. King Aerys II had been mad, all of Westeros knew that. He had exiled two of his Hands and burned a third. If Daenerys is as murdeous as her father, must I still marry her? Prince Doran had never spoken of that possibility.

Doran knew Aerys well, since his sister married a Targaeryen. He knows that Viserys was mad. Given Daenerys reputation (bathes in blood, beds monsters, eats children etc), how could he not have considered that Dany was not suitable for marriage?

(Of course, there is still the looming question of determining how could Doran have known about Daenerys' presence in Meereen with dragons before anybody else in Westeros.)

Edited by Bran Vras, 04 March 2012 - 04:32 PM.

[brashcandy]

I've also pondered this point before Bran. If the reason that Doran reneged on the plan to marry Arianne to Viserys is because the latter was revealed to have troubling psychological issues, why isn't he a lot more cautious when sending Quentyn to Dany? And the need for Quentyn to know more about the dragons would be increased IMO if one had doubts about Dany's mental stability.

[Bran Vras]

Forgive me Brashcandy. You were the first to catch that one. The amount of evidence overwhelms me, and I have difficulty to keep track of everything. I could write a quite different top ten list from the one that started the thread.

[brashcandy]

Bran Vras, on 05 March 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

Forgive me Brashcandy. You were the first to catch that one. The amount of evidence overwhelms me, and I have difficulty to keep track of everything. I could write a quite different top ten list from the one that started the thread.

Oh I completely understand So much was discovered it's difficult sorting through who said what and when.

[Bran Vras]

Here is an opinion on Doran Martell found in ASoS

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Prince Oberyn’s presence here is unfortunate. His brother is a cautious man, a reasoned man, subtle, deliberate, even indolent to a degree. He is a man who weighs the consequences of every word and every action.

from no less than Tywin Lannister. A wake-up call for all those who think that Quentyn's lack of preparation and final failure is due to bad circumstances, (and just consider Brashcandy's argument repeated in post 223 above).

Edited by Bran Vras, 14 March 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[brashcandy]

Yes, Tywin's words do help to support the theory that the haphazard nature of Quentyn's journey is at odds with the kind of careful planner Doran is.

Another thing I just wanted to note. Quentyn is a romantic and extremely sentimental. I know we've touched on these points before, but in rereading his final chapter when he's about to go tame the dragons, it's really glaring just how unsuitable he was to a task like this. He wants to be kissing girls and visiting his mother, not trying to source dragons for Dorne.

Quote

I should have kissed the Drinkwater twins, or maybe both of them. I should have kissed them whilst I could. I should have gone to Norvos to see my mother and the place that gave her birth, so she would know that I had not forgotten her.

[brashcandy]

I was also thinking about how the Tattered Prince fits into all this, and wondering if he could have decided to double cross Quentyn and somehow sabotage the mission. I know it's out there, and without much evidence to back it up, but in the discussion where Quentyn is trying to source his help, the Tattered Prince is particularly mocking towards Quentyn:

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.."Oh I recall. Your bride flew off on a dragon. Well, when she returns, do be sure to invite us to your nuptials. The men of the company would love to drink to your happiness, and I do love a Westerosi wedding. The bedding part especially, only... oh, wait..." He turned to Denzo D'han. "Denzo, I thought you told me that the dragon queen had married some Ghiscari."

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The Tattered Prince finished his wine, turned the cup over, and set it down between them. "So. Let me see If I understand. A proven liar and oathbreaker wishes to contract with us and pay in promises. And for what services? I wonder. Are my Windblown to smash the Yunkai'i and sack the Yellow City? Defeat a Dothraki khalasar in the field? Escort you home to your father? Or will you be content if we deliver Queen Daenerys to your bed wet and willing? Tell me true, Prince Frog. What would you have of me and mine?"

Here's what is said about Pentos (the city where the Tattered Prince is from and wants to recapture)

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Pentos is ruled by a prince and magisters. The prince is chosen from the forty families and has a mostly ceremonial function, presiding over balls and feasts. Three heralds travel with him, the golden scales of trade, the iron sword of war and the silver scourge of justice. On the first day of every new year, the Prince must deflower the maid of the fields and the maid of the seas. When the Pentoshi believe the gods are angry at them, such as a loss in a war or a crop failure, they sacrifice the prince by cutting his throat to appease the gods and then choose a new prince from amongst the forty families.^{[4] [/[}  

[Bran Vras]

The question of the role of the Windblown in Quentyn's quest is fascinating. They have been in control of Quentyn during a good half of his adventure, and Gerris Drinkwater was in control during a large part of the other half.

Another look at the text is in order to connect the dots!

[Lizaveta Martell]

I think Doran had the same problem a lot of people on this forum generally have: they think Westeros is so much more important than Essos and Dany should be doing all she can to get there.  Doran probably imagined that Dany was just dying to get the support of a major Westerosi house and that she was completely well versed in the whole history of the Martells and the Targaryens and where everyone's natural sympathies lie.  Which might make sense if you are a person incapable of understanding another persons perspective.  

Dany has never been to Westeros.  
Dany is busy.
Dany has other priorities.  
Essos is bigger, richer, more populous and generally more technologically advanced.  If you had to pick one to conquer, you'd pick Essos too.  
Dany believes what Mirri told her: she cannot have children.  If she cannot have children, what is the point of reclaiming her dynastic throne? In her mind, she is the last Targaryen, not just the only one.

I think all of Quentyn and Doran's mistakes stem from this one: they assumed Dany was in this game so she could return to Westeros and restore her dynasty.  Why would they need to convince her?  Why would they expect her to be contemplating marriage to a Meereeneese native? I think they assumed there was no urgency, so they went with secrecy.  After all, what else would a woman with 3 dragons, an army and a huge city be doing with her time but waiting to conquer Westeros?  

Don't get me wrong, I love the Martells and Dorne.  But they were short sided with this one and frankly, I think GRRM didn't really think it through.

[CloudFlare]

There are a couple of other things that Doran should have done.

1) What to do if Quentyn does marry Dany. Does Quentyn tie the know, then sneak back into Dorne to get further instructions from his father? Does he sneak back in with Dany and her dragons? Or does he land the entire army in Dorne?

2) What to do if Quentyn doesn't tie the knot. We saw the near tragic outcome of this. But there should have still been a fall back plan. Does Dany have permission to land her forces in Dorne? Will Dorne rise up for her? If so, how do they coordinate their attacks, etc.

[Ser Lepus]

Lizaveta Martell, on 18 March 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

I think Doran had the same problem a lot of people on this forum generally have: they think Westeros is so much more important than Essos and Dany should be doing all she can to get there.  Doran probably imagined that Dany was just dying to get the support of a major Westerosi house and that she was completely well versed in the whole history of the Martells and the Targaryens and where everyone's natural sympathies lie.  Which might make sense if you are a person incapable of understanding another persons perspective.  

Dany has never been to Westeros.  
Dany is busy.
Dany has other priorities.  
Essos is bigger, richer, more populous and generally more technologically advanced.  If you had to pick one to conquer, you'd pick Essos too.  
Dany believes what Mirri told her: she cannot have children.  If she cannot have children, what is the point of reclaiming her dynastic throne? In her mind, she is the last Targaryen, not just the only one.

I think all of Quentyn and Doran's mistakes stem from this one: they assumed Dany was in this game so she could return to Westeros and restore her dynasty.  Why would they need to convince her?  Why would they expect her to be contemplating marriage to a Meereeneese native? I think they assumed there was no urgency, so they went with secrecy.  After all, what else would a woman with 3 dragons, an army and a huge city be doing with her time but waiting to conquer Westeros?  

Don't get me wrong, I love the Martells and Dorne.  But they were short sided with this one and frankly, I think GRRM didn't really think it through.

You forget the most important thing: They failed to realize the dragons were far too small and untrained to be of use for war...even if Dany wanted to leave everything and go to Dorne, she couldn´t even put her dragons into a ship, much less ride them to battle. Doran and Quentyn behave as if they believed that Dany has Balerion, Vhagar and Meraxes with her, instead of three untamed pups.

And they should expect Dany to be suspicious; she has no reason to believe that anybody in Westeros has her best interest at heart (nobody ever helped her), and all reasons to expect a trap (she has suffered attempts on her life).

And anyways, they are expecting an orphaned homeless girl who has managed to become a queen (of an admittedly crappy kingdom, but still a queen) to leave behind all her gains and return to uncertainity. If Dany had been raised in court she would probably be happy to eschew Meeren for a chance to conquer the Iron Throne, but a girl raised as a poor exile would  not be so fast to throw away her little kingdom for the chance of getting a bigger one, taking the risk of losing everything and becoming an exile again...

P.S.: Yes, Dorne is the less awful place of Westeros.

Edited by Ser Lepus, 02 April 2012 - 06:40 PM.

[Lizaveta Martell]

^agreed

I wonder how much Illyrio and Varys told the Martells about Dany.  It can't have been much.

[Ashen Shugar]

The most likely explantion for why Doran was so reckless with Quentyn and not as concerned about him marrying Danny as he was of Arianne marrying Viserys is that Vis never had dragons.

Also even if the Dragons are never tamed, as long as they get to Westeros with Danny, they will bring many houses to her side.

[Ser Lepus]

Ashen Shugar, on 02 April 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

The most likely explantion for why Doran was so reckless with Quentyn and not as concerned about him marrying Danny as he was of Arianne marrying Viserys is that Vis never had dragons.

Also even if the Dragons are never tamed, as long as they get to Westeros with Danny, they will bring many houses to her side.

Still a dangerous gamble: Dany would arrive to Dorne (assuming she managed to move her dragons there before they went berserk of bored and burned the ship) without any strength of her own, trusting her life to Doran´s hands, hoping that enough of the second and third-tier nobility of Westeros would be inspired by her dragons to join her side as to give her an opportunity to win.

If not enought nobles join her side, what then? The dornish can´t win by themselves...will they fight a losing war, or will they yield and hand Dany to the Lannisters in exchange for a royal pardon?

Edited by Ser Lepus, 03 April 2012 - 11:33 AM.

[Ashen Shugar]

well yes it is dangerous, a lot of characters have pulled off dangerous things, sometimes they work and it's a brilliant idea, sometimes they don't and you get burnt to a crisp by angry dragon #2.

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

Quentyn failed because he boring, dull, fugly, and unintelligent.

A smarter man would have made a better argument for why Daenerys should marry that Hizdhar or whatever his name is. And a better prince would have charmed Dany even if he wasn't the best looking. Or at the very least negotiated for one of her dragons if thats what he truly wanted.

But the bottom line is that even after Dany rejected him he was still so stupid and tried to steal 2 dragons. Dragons that he had already seen before and witnessed how wild and angry they were.

I don't see why Doran should be blamed for that. Perhaps he didn't give Quentyn a backup plan or explicit instructions to "return home if all else fails" but I mean it doesn't take a genius to figure that out.  He tried his best and at the end of the day Barristan the Bold told him to go home. As one of his companions said when someone like that gives you advice you best heed it....

I feel bad for Doran though. I'm sure its gonna crush his spirits to hear his son is dead.  But at least he still has Arianne and Trystane.....

[Viserys_The Transformed]

the average Other, on 11 February 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

I got the opposite impression. Doran trusted his son with sensitive information and secret plans and responsibilities sooner and at a younger age than Arianne, because he thinks she's a chatterbox and a bad judge of character.

Many people in this thread seem to take for granted that there's no way someone in Dany's position would have welcomed a suitor like Quentyn. Our knowledge about the hopelessness of Quentyn's mission is based on our extensive and intimate knowledge about Dany's personality and taste in men, though. Doran couldn't have known all that stuff, so what did he imagine when he thought of her? Perhaps he pictured a girl like Sansa in King's Landing: lost, frightened, surrounded by hard-eyed, violent men and strange, incomprehensible foreigners. A girl who'd already had to endure a horrible marriage to a rough, raping barbarian. A girl like that would have been happy to meet a man who is kind, ordinary, and unthreatening, and wants to take her home. The last thing she'd want is another aggressive, dominant warrior who wants to steal her. And you know what? The Dany we met in AGOT would have been happy and relieved if Quentyn had come then to save her from her brother and his plans. I don't think it would have been unreasonable of Doran to think that Dany is still that girl, if a bit more traumatized, even if we know she isn't.

Everything you speak is amazing !

[Ser Lepus]

Viserys_The Transformed, on 08 September 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

Everything you speak is amazing !

She has hatched three dragons, taken control of a small kalashar, crossed the Red Waste, sailed to Slaver's Bay, defeated the armies of three city-states and conquered the greatest of them...Doran HAS to know that either Dany is a tough gal or she has somebody else pulling her strings and using her as a front.