164 replies to this topic

[Fire Eater]

TheWanderer, on 16 February 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Where does this idea come from? I personally haven't seen anything that suggests that Mel is anything more than a magic practitioner. I wouldn't even rate her as one of the more powerful ones that we've seen. Thorros seems stronger as does Bloodraven and Moqorro, Varamyr and Bran are all at least as skilled.

We know from Mel's POV that she doesn't need to eat. The same goes for Beric and UnCat, they don't need to eat as well. Some of the priests of R'hollor may undergo a ceremony that in a way kills them and has them reborn in fire.

[lostinwesteros]

Net-Viper X, on 15 February 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

This is a bit off topic, but all this discussion about children made some cobwebs stir in the memory.

Varys is always talking about how he does what he does for the realm, for the Children.

From what I can tell the continent aka the realm was once entirely owned and populated by the children of the forest, so what if thats what Varys means? Hes doing what he does to restore the realm to its rightful owners, hes doing it for the children. That could be why even though it seems like he wants to help the Targs, he does things that seems to do the opposite for them.

Has this been discussed before perhaps?

I think that you've hit on a major consideration here.  We still tend to separate the Wall and North of the Wall from the entire rest of the realm when we discuss it.  And it is, given what we've read so far in the five books, pretty much a different planet at this point.  The next two books have got to bring cohesion, and I suspect that part of that will have to do with Varys (just thinking on your post), as well as with the dragons . . . and with Sam in the Citadel . . . and. . . and on and on.

[7V3N]

Just added more, concerning Coldhands and how he links the Children of the Forest to the Others.

The Shadow Fox, on 03 February 2012 - 02:49 AM, said:

[Added 2/21/12] Coldhands: He seems to be a wight that can talk (in an "ancient language") and is working for Bloodraven and/or the Children. He rides a great elk, like the Children were said to do. He cannot pass through the Black Gate under the Wall. All signs show to him being a wight used by the side of the CotF. Now how would the Children have an ability to control a wight like the Others do? I think Bloodraven takes the "whatever means necessary" (that was his reputation in D&E) attitude and wargs a dead black brother (whose identity may or may not be significant), breaking the boundaries that the CotF always found necessary. I think this only links the similarities between the Others and the CotF.

[Brienne the Beauty]

fireeater22, on 17 February 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

We know from Mel's POV that she doesn't need to eat. The same goes for Beric and UnCat, they don't need to eat as well. Some of the priests of R'hollor may undergo a ceremony that in a way kills them and has them reborn in fire.

She still seems pretty human, though. More so than Lady Stoneheart.

[Drunkenspeton]

The giants,children etc were around for many, many thousands of years I think Leaf says a thousand,thousand before mankind even stepped foot in Westeros.

Like the Giants and children the others could be very,very ancient pre-first men inhabiatnts of westeros.
Which would explain why the children know so much of them. They'd fought or co-existed with them for a million years.

My own crackpot theory is these ancient races lived a sort of balance. Perhaps not peaceful but kept each other in check.

The arrival of the first men in westeros and the hunting of children and cutting down weirwoods upset this balance which allowed the power of the Others to grow and caused the long night.

It seems these ancient races are done for. The cotf, giants etc are dying out along with other mega fauna from pre-first men times. Maybe this time the others will be defeated for good.

[7V3N]

Drunkenspeton, on 22 February 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

It seems these ancient races are done for. The cotf, giants etc are dying out along with other mega fauna from pre-first men times. Maybe this time the others will be defeated for good.

Just like the dragons were done for good?

[Black Crow]

Drunkenspeton, on 22 February 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

It seems these ancient races are done for. The cotf, giants etc are dying out along with other mega fauna from pre-first men times. Maybe this time the others will be defeated for good.

Or the "Children and the other old races" are the Others

[Vic-tarion Rattlehead]

Fire Eater, on 17 February 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

We know from Mel's POV that she doesn't need to eat. The same goes for Beric and UnCat, they don't need to eat as well. Some of the priests of R'hollor may undergo a ceremony that in a way kills them and has them reborn in fire.

This deal with dying and then being reborn again sounds a bit familiar, kind of squid-like:

“What is dead can never die, but rises again, harder and stronger.”

Hmm... do R'hllor and Drowned God work in the same department?

[Lady Jen]

Black Crow, on 06 March 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

Or the "Children and the other old races" are the Others

It's plausible that CotF and WW could be both called as Others. They really are others for humans.

hotweaselsoup, on 15 February 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

I think it's possible that the white walkers are a version of the CotF that have tapped into, or have been transformed into, some sort of ice energy.  And I don't think that because the white walkers are susceptible to dragonglass, it necessarily means the the Children are also susceptible to dragonglass - even supposing that the white walkers are former CotF

I'm thinking that WW and CotF could be spirits of some sort and they get power from different elements. They could be basically the same and get the difference from their elements or they could be the manifestations of their elements. Obsidian represents the fire element and so it has the power to destroy ice. I'm not sure if it really destroyed the spirit or just the physical form made of ice.

Is there only two elements / powers / what ever - ice and fire - or more? CotF don't seem to be really one or the other so either there should be other elements or they could have both - some sort of balanced "nature spirit" of ice and fire.

hotweaselsoup, on 15 February 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

Melisandre might not like water much - somebody ought to push her into the Winterfell hot springs just to see what would happen!

I don't think water will be a problem. Moqorro was in the ocean for a good while and he seemed to be okay.

[Spjuth]

Lady Jen, on 06 March 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

It's plausible that CotF and WW could be both called as Others.

No it's not. The children is the children and the WW the Others. They are clearly on the opposite sides in Old Nan's tales.

I like the thought that the WW was created by the CotF though.

I Agree with the Craster's son being the Others (not the only ones). This makes them somewhat human, and not cousins to CotF.
It's also probable that the dragon glass only works on the Others. The dragon glass (Obsidian) seems to have some fire magick in them. Would be nice to she the Dragon achieving the same thin with their fire...

And also I heavely disagrees with the ideas that Wraiths are Warged. Jon says that the Wraith he "killed" seemed to have some of it's memory still. And if I've understod some hints correctly, it's not possible to Warg through the wall, Except for through the Wierwoods. This based on that Jon loses contact with Ghost when they are on different sides of it.

This also explains that Coldhands maybe simply had more memory left. Example. Donadarion loses more of his memory for every death. Perhaps, they loose more memory if they are dead for a longer time or something.

Edited by Spjuth, 06 March 2012 - 02:59 PM.

[7V3N]

Spjuth, on 06 March 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

No it's not. The children is the children and the WW the Others. They are clearly on the opposite sides in Old Nan's tales.

I like the thought that the WW was created by the CotF though.

I Agree with the Craster's son being the Others (not the only ones). This makes them somewhat human, and not cousins to CotF.
It's also probable that the dragon glass only works on the Others. The dragon glass (Obsidian) seems to have some fire magick in them. Would be nice to she the Dragon achieving the same thin with their fire...

And also I heavely disagrees with the ideas that Wraiths are Warged. Jon says that the Wraith he "killed" seemed to have some of it's memory still. And if I've understod some hints correctly, it's not possible to Warg through the wall, Except for through the Wierwoods. This based on that Jon loses contact with Ghost when they are on different sides of it.

This also explains that Coldhands maybe simply had more memory left. Example. Donadarion loses more of his memory for every death. Perhaps, they loose more memory if they are dead for a longer time or something.

I assume by Wraiths you mean wights (could be translation problem?)

You misunderstand. I claim the Others originate from the CotF. That doesn't mean that they are all CotF. I think the key factor to the Others is warging dead bodies which may have started as a division within the ideologies of the Children.
When Bran wargs Summer he is one with Summer. He has his thoughts and (unconfirmed) memories. I think he has full access to Summer (since the connection is strong and not fought by Summer).

[Spjuth]

The Shadow Fox, on 06 March 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

I claim the Others originate from the CotF. That doesn't mean that they are all CotF. I think the key factor to the Others is warging dead bodies which may have started as a division within the ideologies of the Children.
When Bran wargs Summer he is one with Summer. He has his thoughts and (unconfirmed) memories. I think he has full access to Summer (since the connection is strong and not fought by Summer).

I don't think that the Other originate from CotF  in the sense that they have at all developed from the CotF. I agree that they are probably created by CotF. I think the Craster's sons part, suggests that that are magically manipulated humans.

And I don't think that warging is behind the Wights (Thanks for the correction btw, I just forgot what they were called ) To me the seems to be acting somewhat by their own. I'm sure Bran does not share Summers memory. Then he would share the memory of Hodor too, and of all the Ravens, and of those who still dwells in there! That would sure give him some serious power, but I don't think it's likely. Not saying it's impossible. He can clearly share the memories of the Hearttree, if it can be called memories.

[7V3N]

Spjuth, on 06 March 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

I don't think that the Other originate from CotF  in the sense that they have at all developed from the CotF. I agree that they are probably created by CotF. I think the Craster's sons part, suggests that that are magically manipulated humans.

And I don't think that warging is behind the Wights (Thanks for the correction btw, I just forgot what they were called ) To me the seems to be acting somewhat by their own. I'm sure Bran does not share Summers memory. Then he would share the memory of Hodor too, and of all the Ravens, and of those who still dwells in there! That would sure give him some serious power, but I don't think it's likely. Not saying it's impossible. He can clearly share the memories of the Hearttree, if it can be called memories.

You are definitely right about the warging memory part. I just wasn't thinking. If that were the case, Bran would have woken up knowing about Jaime and Cersei and the things they do for love.

[7V3N]

Net-Viper X, on 15 February 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

This is a bit off topic, but all this discussion about children made some cobwebs stir in the memory.

Varys is always talking about how he does what he does for the realm, for the Children.

From what I can tell the continent aka the realm was once entirely owned and populated by the children of the forest, so what if thats what Varys means? Hes doing what he does to restore the realm to its rightful owners, hes doing it for the children. That could be why even though it seems like he wants to help the Targs, he does things that seems to do the opposite for them.

Has this been discussed before perhaps?

The mods FINALLY approved the thread for Varys' "for the children"
Let's get it going here.

[chrisdaw]

The Shadow Fox, on 03 February 2012 - 02:49 AM, said:

[Added 2/21/12] Coldhands: He seems to be a wight that can talk (in an "ancient language") and is working for Bloodraven and/or the Children. He rides a great elk, like the Children were said to do. He cannot pass through the Black Gate under the Wall. All signs show to him being a wight used by the side of the CotF. Now how would the Children have an ability to control a wight like the Others do? I think Bloodraven takes the "whatever means necessary" (that was his reputation in D&E) attitude and wargs a dead black brother (whose identity may or may not be significant), breaking the boundaries that the CotF always found necessary. I think this only links the similarities between the Others and the CotF.

Rather unlikely Coldhands is warged considering he appears to communicate with the ravens (assumedly BR). Also Coldhand's personality does not appear to be that of any other character we've met. It seems far more likely he has consciously sided with the COTF/BR.

I see no two sides to the COTF. They and BR are as one, their goal is the survival of the realm of men on Westeros, at any cost. They may well be related to the origins of the others, but that wouldn't contradict anything they've represented.

[Spjuth]

Thing is, The First Men kind of knew what the Children of the Forrest were, Small people living in the forrest. And they knew what the Giants were; giants.
They did however not understand what the Others were, hence not being able to give them a propper name, thus simply, the Others.

I don't see any hints even slightly suggesting that anyone would consider CotF inte the category of Others.

There is BONES from dead Children in their caves; They do not turn into water when dying.
The Others are magical beings, the Children and the Giants are Humanoids.

Edited by Spjuth, 10 March 2012 - 09:49 AM.

[7V3N]

Spjuth, on 10 March 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

Thing is, The First Men kind of knew what the Children of the Forrest were, Small people living in the forrest. And they knew what the Giants were; giants.
They did however not understand what the Others were, hence not being able to give them a propper name, thus simply, the Others.

I don't see any hints even slightly suggesting that anyone would consider CotF inte the category of Others.

There is BONES from dead Children in their caves; They do not turn into water when dying.
The Others are magical beings, the Children and the Giants are Humanoids.

Please read the complete thread before posting. You are missing a lot of thing.

[Black Crow]

Spjuth, on 10 March 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

Thing is, The First Men kind of knew what the Children of the Forrest were, Small people living in the forrest. And they knew what the Giants were; giants.
They did however not understand what the Others were, hence not being able to give them a propper name, thus simply, the Others.

I don't see any hints even slightly suggesting that anyone would consider CotF inte the category of Others.

There is BONES from dead Children in their caves; They do not turn into water when dying.
The Others are magical beings, the Children and the Giants are Humanoids.

Well if you pop across to the Heresy threads you'll find there's a lot of good reason for supposing that the Others is a broad term encompassing all the "Others" who do not walk in the Light, ie: the Children, the Giants and "the other old races". The term includes but is not synonymous with the White Walkers, who as you rightly observe are sustained by some kind of magic, but contrary to popular belief they don't appear to be a separate race but a band of white rangers working for a third party which is looking increasingly like the Children (and Bloodraven)

[7V3N]

Black Crow, on 11 March 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

snip

You guys have to slow down on that thread(s) or I will never be able to finish reading it all and finally start posting on it

[lostinwesteros]

Black Crow, on 16 February 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

Not a chance on the bodies being burned, it was still all going down when the old women bundled Sam, Gilly and the baby out of town ahead of Craster's sons. Whatever happened next must have been exciting although when I was checking on something else I don't remember any of the Watch from Craster's being recognised amongst the Wights who later came to the village that wasn't called Whitetree

This is a little belated, but thank you!