164 replies to this topic

[davidjones2492]

Black Crow, on 11 March 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

Well if you pop across to the Heresy threads you'll find there's a lot of good reason for supposing that the Others is a broad term encompassing all the "Others" who do not walk in the Light, ie: the Children, the Giants and "the other old races". The term includes but is not synonymous with the White Walkers, who as you rightly observe are sustained by some kind of magic, but contrary to popular belief they don't appear to be a separate race but a band of white rangers working for a third party which is looking increasingly like the Children (and Bloodraven)

A few problems with this:

When the term "others" is used in the books it has always referred to the white walkers only. The CoTF are always called the CoTF, giants are called giants. For instance when the giants do attack the wall with Mance's forces nobody in the Watch refers to them (at any time) as "others".

The description of white walkers (brief as they have been thus far) suggests that they are a seperate race; they are certainly nothing like giants, of the CoTF.

I'm not sure of what you mean by "those who walk in the light". Obviously the White Walkers have only appeared in the dark, but giants and the children are both fine with sunlight.

If you believe that the others are being guided by either Bloodraven or the children, then you have to reject the existence of Rholler and the Great Other; and the religious beliefs of the red priests who claim that the walkers are guided by a rival deity to their own.

I think your stretching creduility to claim there is strong evidence for your ideas, as they seem to contradict much of what is written in the books.

[Black Crow]

Not walking in the Light of the Seven/Lord of Light but instead following the Old Gods.

As to the rest, I'll repeat my invitation to take yourself over to the Heresy thread where you'll find that all the clues are indeed present in the books.

Mel is indeed fighting Bloodraven

Edited by Black Crow, 11 March 2012 - 02:39 PM.

[Fire Eater]

Black Crow, on 11 March 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

Not walking in the Light of the Seven/Lord of Light but instead following the Old Gods.

As to the rest, I'll repeat my invitation to take yourself over to the Heresy thread where you'll find that all the clues are indeed present in the books.

Mel is indeed fighting Bloodraven

I think the problem Mel will have in trying to kill Bloodraven is that the CotF's cave is warded with spells to prevent any of Mel's shadowbabies from entering, like at Storm's End in ACoK where she needed to get past the walls thatwere warded with spells to kill Ser Cortnay Penrose. If she ever reaches the cave, I think she may try to have Bran killed as well, and that will get Jon to draw his sword to stop her. She may try to kill off the remaining CotF as well.

Edited by Fire Eater, 11 March 2012 - 04:55 PM.

[Black Crow]

May try to kill off the Children, May try...???

Given that she's engaged in a crusade I very much doubt that May will come into it. Succeeding on the other hand could be much more problematic.

[Fire Eater]

Black Crow, on 11 March 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

May try to kill off the Children, May try...???

Given that she's engaged in a crusade I very much doubt that May will come into it. Succeeding on the other hand could be much more problematic.

In that case she better not have any Northmen or wildings with her when she tries; they'll recall the Pact and the ties their First Men ancestors had with the CotF. It'll be Queen's men vs. Northmen(and possibly wildlings, the first time Northmen and wildlings fight on the same side since the Night's King).

Edited by Fire Eater, 12 March 2012 - 05:11 PM.

[EgoistMusketeer]

I know early on Martin wanted to emphasize that the COTF are not elves and he wanted to differentiate his mythology from Lord of The Rings.  Wouldn't White Walkers being COTF be the same as the Orcs descending from Elves.  Obviously this doesn't mean its impossible, I just think Martin works hard to create an epic that is entirely unique and he would avoid this cliche origin story at all costs.

Besides that, being the same group that split into good and evil long ago is implying that the children are good and so far we haven't seen any evidence that they are.  
When people like Roose Bolton or Osha recount the old ways of the children and the first men its all cannibalism, sacrificing to the trees, and other atrocities.

[7V3N]

EgoistMusketeer, on 12 March 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

I know early on Martin wanted to emphasize that the COTF are not elves and he wanted to differentiate his mythology from Lord of The Rings.  Wouldn't White Walkers being COTF be the same as the Orcs descending from Elves.  Obviously this doesn't mean its impossible, I just think Martin works hard to create an epic that is entirely unique and he would avoid this cliche origin story at all costs.

Besides that, being the same group that split into good and evil long ago is implying that the children are good and so far we haven't seen any evidence that they are.  
When people like Roose Bolton or Osha recount the old ways of the children and the first men its all cannibalism, sacrificing to the trees, and other atrocities.

Ahh again, notice that I claim that is their origin. As I said citing Craster's situation, men have become part of the Others. It is just that they started as a rift in the CotF. I see your point, but I believe it is different enough to be GRRM's own creation.

[Black Crow]

Leaving aside any question of factions its worth remembering that thus far (and so far as we know) we've only seen singers and greenseers among the Children, yet we know there were also Wood Dancers - warriors.

[Fire Eater]

Black Crow, on 13 March 2012 - 02:32 AM, said:

Leaving aside any question of factions its worth remembering that thus far (and so far as we know) we've only seen singers and greenseers among the Children, yet we know there were also Wood Dancers - warriors.

I'm interested in the wood dancers as well. They probably had the magic that provided invisibility like the Others' armor, allowing them to as Maester Lwuin said, disappear into the wood.

They also had flying snares, or what we call bolas.

[7V3N]

I officially added the Craster stuff to the original post. Can we consider S02E02's scene with Craster giving his son to the Others a confirmation? I assume GRRM gave them the okay for that scene (which was heavily implied to take place). So what does that mean?

The Others must not be their own being, species, etc. They seem to be a manipulation of some sorts on the living. Also, we have not seen Others who do not resemble the body shape/size of a human. So are the Others a human-mutant sort of faction? Not mutant in the normal sense, but simply a human who has been transformed. If the Others take babies, then perhaps they train them with ice magic and sort of fuse it into their soul (much as it seems with the priests of R'hllor, who seem to have their soul/life force replaced with fire). The AGOT prologue shows them as human-like--they duel 1v1, then when Royce is defeated they laugh and taunt him. They are not simply killing machines who slay all in their path.

Edited by The Shadow Fox, 15 April 2012 - 07:45 PM.

[Black Crow]

The Heresy thread is calling to you....  where we've been discussing just that.

[7V3N]

Black Crow, on 11 April 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

The Heresy thread is calling to you....  where we've been discussing just that.

Haha. When I was working to read it all and get caught up, my apartment lost internet for like a week straight and you guys pulled way too far ahead. I guess I should pick up where I left off and meet you guys in about a month

[AsoiafFTW!]

i think crasters sons are something like a commander of sorts for the undead armies of the others.

i mean the others warg into them so they a have a living meat suit.

or maybe they even need a host, like the goa'uld from stargate to do certain things.

Edited by AsoiafFTW!, 11 May 2012 - 08:30 AM.

[7V3N]

AsoiafFTW!, on 11 May 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

i think crasters sons are something like a commander of sorts for the undead armies of the others. i mean the others warg into them so they a have a living meat suit. or maybe they even need a host, like the goa'uld from stargate to do certain things.

So you think the sons are merely vassals for the Others, rather than part of the Others?

[Black Crow]

You've been away again, haven't you, and missed this little revelation in an exchange between GRRM and the artist who drew the comic book version:

'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.'

[ClaytonP]

In an interview with amazon, GRRM stated that he believes nothing in this world is completely evil or completely good. Everybody acts in a way which they believe is for the good (I think he was relating this conversation to cersei doing all she did for the love of her kids).  Due to GRRM's beliefs, the others can not be wholly evil. They must have a motive. Your theory that they are a break-off from the CotF makes sense then. Here's why;

The others are invading westeros because once, long ago, they roamed the land as the CotF. Then the first men drove them back. The others are only attempting to reclaim what once belonged to them (there motive), as dany is attempting to reclaim a throne which once belonged to targerians.

[ClaytonP]

In an interview with amazon, GRRM stated that he believes nothing in this world is completely evil or completely good. Everybody acts in a way which they believe is for the good (I think he was relating this conversation to cersei doing all she did for the love of her kids).  Due to GRRM's beliefs, the others can not be wholly evil. They must have a motive. Your theory that they are a break-off from the CotF makes sense then. Here's why;

The others are invading westeros because once, long ago, they roamed the land as the CotF. Then the first men drove them back. The others are only attempting to reclaim what once belonged to them (there motive), as dany is attempting to reclaim a throne which once belonged to targerians.

[7V3N]

Black Crow, on 20 May 2012 - 03:23 AM, said:

You've been away again, haven't you, and missed this little revelation in an exchange between GRRM and the artist who drew the comic book version: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.'

I actually read some of the Heresy thread recently and caught up on the Sidhe. Very interesting..

Quote

In folk belief and practice, the aos sí are often appeased with offerings, and care is taken to avoid angering or insulting them.

Craster anyone?

[Al Qohorik]

Most people who are just getting into the books now through the TV series seem to have the same questions regarding the difference between Others, White Walkers, and Wights...

In the books, there are "Others" and then there are "White Walkers," or wights, the undead thralls of the Others.  But in the TV series they call the Others "White walkers," I assume this is because of the popularity of the show "Lost" which had its own version of "others." So, in an effort to avoid confusion, they decided to make things more confusing than they had to be....

And on an unrelated but similarly confusing note, how exactly is it that "Asha" is too close to "Osha," but "Yara" isn't too close to "Arya"?

[corbon]

Al Qohorik, on 20 May 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

Most people who are just getting into the books now through the TV series seem to have the same questions regarding the difference between Others, White Walkers, and Wights... In the books, there are "Others" and then there are "White Walkers," or wights, the undead thralls of the Others. But in the TV series they call the Others "White walkers," I assume this is because of the popularity of the show "Lost" which had its own version of "others."

No. No no no no no.
The confusion is greatly increased by incorrect promulgations like this.
In the books the 'White Walker' and 'Other' terms are used interchangeably to mean the ice-demon things. Different people use the two terms different at different times, but in every case the terms White Walker and Other both mean the ice-demon things. In one case in fact Old Nan uses [one term] and Bran says "you mean [other term]?" (I forget which way round) and she says yes, indicating that the two terms are literally interchangeable.
Wights are wights - undead humans (and animals) and neither White Walker nor Other.

The self-styled 'Heretics' (which indicates that they have some 'out there' theories that simply don't have enough decent evidence to convince most people and become 'mainstream') have some extra fancy theories about Others etc based on extremely weak (IMO) extrapolations, but the above is unchanged even for them I think (merely one of WW and Other being a 'subset' of the other, but wights are still entirely separate).
"Crastor's sons" don't exist IMO. Its just the old wives' projections to make themselves feel better about their children being sacrificed for their protection (the babes aren't being 'killed', just given an alternate and better life by the Gods). There is no conceivable way that the wives could actually have knowledge about the Others turning little human babies into something else dangerous, or raising little human babies into adult humans even. The Others are the great and feared unknown, that's pretty much the whole point.

Edited by corbon, 21 May 2012 - 12:37 AM.