164 replies to this topic

[Black Crow]

Al Qohorik, on 20 May 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

Most people who are just getting into the books now through the TV series seem to have the same questions regarding the difference between Others, White Walkers, and Wights...

In the books, there are "Others" and then there are "White Walkers," or wights, the undead thralls of the Others.  But in the TV series they call the Others "White walkers," I assume this is because of the popularity of the show "Lost" which had its own version of "others." So, in an effort to avoid confusion, they decided to make things more confusing than they had to be....

For once I have to agree with Corbon on this (I won't confuse you with the heresy). The terms Others and White Walkers appear to be interchangeable in the books - with occasional variations such as White Shadows and even the Cold Gods - and just for the record the first use of the term White Walkers is quite early on by Mormont in the Tyrion chapter where he's trying to persuade him to get reinforcements sent to the Wall.

Neither Others nor White Walkers are Wights and just for the avoidance of all doubt, while Wights are unquestionably dead things, GRRM has clearly stated:
'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.'

[mor2]

The Shadow Fox, on 03 February 2012 - 02:49 AM, said:

The Night's King: we see a hint that maybe seeing the Others as inherently evil may just be an opinion. Perhaps this Night's King saw more in the Others than everyone else seemed to see. To put it in perspective, everyone used to think the wildlings were inherently evil, but Jon has enlightened us a bit. This reinforces my idea that they are just another side of the coin of the CotF.

Indeed prejudice is common in westeros, but I dont think that any of us thought of the wildlings as evil or that jon actions led the people of westeros to see them as more than backwater wildlings who warred against them for as long as they can remember.  

As for the night king, I doubt this is a prejudice, all stories get exaggerated and skewed but at its core are the horrific actions of Night king.

[Al Qohorik]

Corbon, yeah you're right. For some reason I had it in my head that wight and white walker were the interchangeable ones in the books, not other/white walker... no need to bang your head against the wall (there should be an emoticon that shows one smileyface beating another smileyface's head against a wall, that would be more appropriate in this case. <-- that's me, btw)

Either way, they have completely erased the term "others" from the TV series, and I'm pretty sure it's because of the reason stated in my previous post.

Edited by Al Qohorik, 21 May 2012 - 11:20 AM.

[Black Crow]

mor2, on 21 May 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

Indeed prejudice is common in westeros, but I dont think that any of us thought of the wildlings as evil or that jon actions led the people of westeros to see them as more than backwater wildlings who warred against them for as long as they can remember. As for the night king, I doubt this is a prejudice, all stories get exaggerated and skewed but at its core are the horrific actions of Night king.

True, but history is also written, or in this case erased, by the winners...

[Septon Meribald]

Black Crow, on 21 May 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

True, but history is also written, or in this case erased, by the winners...

I think this is important to keep in mind for everything about this series. Nothing is said from an objective point of view. Every story someone tells, every answer they give or explanation they make has history, prejudice and intentions behind it. Who says something is inevitably as important as what they say.

[7V3N]

mor2, on 21 May 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

As for the night king, I doubt this is a prejudice, all stories get exaggerated and skewed but at its core are the horrific actions of Night king.

Horrific actions? The story we are told is very vague. All we really know is that he took a queen who seems to be an Other, claimed the Night's Watch as his army (by sorcery or rhetoric, we cannot be sure), and sacrificed to the Others.

This got me thinking--this person seems to be known as a woman, but so far all the Others we have encountered have not been mentioned as male or female. This is likely connected to the Night's Watch not taking wives, which may be why we haven't been told specifically of female Others--there are less women being given to the Others (perhaps some wildling girls are converted), where as men are given to the Others by Craster, and are likely in larger supply. I have always assumed the Others we have encountered were male (if any sex), but I do not think there is anything in the text to support that.

[mor2]

The Shadow Fox, on 21 May 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Horrific actions? The story we are told is very vague. All we really know is that he took a queen who seems to be an Other, claimed the Night's Watch as his army (by sorcery or rhetoric, we cannot be sure), and sacrificed to the Others.

I think that the main point of the story was that he broke his vows, which is why his compared to so many northern lords around the wall, because at some point they have failed to do their duty and thus this is told as tale to scare the little children, of what happens when people forsake their vows. Another option is that his actions during his rule were indeed so horrific, that he became the portrait of the "seven sins" which is why his claimed to be of the Bolton who are known to torcher people, of Skagos who are cannibals, of Umbers who arrogant and I am sure that something can be found of the rest in their past.

If anything the most tale like part is the connection to the others and sacrifice, the woman is likely have been a regular woman with a pale skin and blue eys and was demonized later on, with men( claiming that it was the woman fault that seduced him(think the lace serpent during the defiance of duskendale) and thus the source of the Nights watch vows.

Edited by mor2, 21 May 2012 - 08:38 PM.

[7V3N]

I just reread the prologue of ADWD, and I have a thought on its meaning. It was about warging into humans and living a second life through a warg connection after you die (in your main body). I am thinking this was a hint at what the Others are. Perhaps the Children warged First Men during the war, so if they were killed in combat, they lived on through the body of the First Man--it would take a powerful warg, but we haven't been given evidence of how powerful the Children were when they dominated Westeros--and they were able to retain their magical abilities. So when the First Men pushed the Children far into the North, the ones who "died" lived on through First Men in the North. So with their magic, these First Men (but actually Children) could better adapt and survive in the North, where the normal First Man would have trouble. Add in thousands of years, and you get what the Others are now.

Now the Children vs. the Others:
Having a second life in a human might have been seen as immoral, dishonorable, horrifying, etc. by the society of the Children. So perhaps by having that second life, the "Others" were seen as cheating death or abominations or something of the sort.

[corbon]

The Shadow Fox, on 29 May 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

I just reread the prologue of ADWD, and I have a thought on its meaning. It was about warging into humans and living a second life through a warg connection after you die (in your main body). I am thinking this was a hint at what the Others are. Perhaps the Children warged First Men during the war, so if they were killed in combat, they lived on through the body of the First Man--it would take a powerful warg, but we haven't been given evidence of how powerful the Children were when they dominated Westeros--and they were able to retain their magical abilities. So when the First Men pushed the Children far into the North, the ones who "died" lived on through First Men in the North. So with their magic, these First Men (but actually Children) could better adapt and survive in the North, where the normal First Man would have trouble. Add in thousands of years, and you get what the Others are now.

And this reconciles with the Others dissolving into a puddle when stabbed with dragonglass how?

[7V3N]

corbon, on 29 May 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

And this reconciles with the Others dissolving into a puddle when stabbed with dragonglass how?

Something to do with the magical properties of either obsidian or the ice magic the Others use. We don't know enough about magic to give a good explanation for it.

[binga]

I think White Walkers are the oldest race of creatures. Even older than the children, giants, or humans. I think Bran will go into their lair telepathically and actually discover they are an advanced magical race with their own purposes. I fell their story is tragic. They were a great race, probably similar to elves, but calamity struck them somehow. They felt so much pain that they used their magic to turn themselves into ice creatures, so that they could live without the fires of emotions and passions. They are perfecly preserved, perfecly free from pain.

[Babeldygob]

Very much like OP's theory. It gives a plausible explanation for the others with motive. The CoTF could very well have been and probably were divided into several factions. Human Others would also look different than Children of the Forest others. Bravo OP.

mor2, on 21 May 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

I think that the main point of the story was that he broke his vows, which is why his compared to so many northern lords around the wall, because at some point they have failed to do their duty and thus this is told as tale to scare the little children, of what happens when people forsake their vows. Another option is that his actions during his rule were indeed so horrific, that he became the portrait of the "seven sins" which is why his claimed to be of the Bolton who are known to torcher people, of Skagos who are cannibals, of Umbers who arrogant and I am sure that something can be found of the rest in their past.

If anything the most tale like part is the connection to the others and sacrifice, the woman is likely have been a regular woman with a pale skin and blue eys and was demonized later on, with men( claiming that it was the woman fault that seduced him(think the lace serpent during the defiance of duskendale) and thus the source of the Nights watch vows.

There are striking parallels between the 'Ice Woman' and Melisandre (Fire/Ice). Stannis also has the Nightfort as his seat, it's not far-fetched to assume he would appoint himself as LC of the NW because of what happened there, even more so if Selyse/Shireen die because of some kind of clash between the factions at The Wall. I have a theory on him becoming the Night's King if you want to read about it.

Edited by Babeldygob, 05 June 2012 - 06:17 PM.

[7V3N]

Babeldygob, on 05 June 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

There are striking parallels between the 'Ice Woman' and Melisandre (Fire/Ice). Stannis also has the Nightfort as his seat, it's not far-fetched to assume he would appoint himself as LC of the NW because of what happened there, even more so if Selyse/Shireen die because of some kind of clash between the factions at The Wall. I have a theory on him becoming the Night's King if you want to read about it.

I have seen this theory and really like it. I have this feeling that all of these past stories were told by GRRM because he plans to redo them.

[Puck the Goat]

Great post. I don't agree with your findings, but I agree that the CoTF and the Others are two sides of the same coin.

[Ramsay Gimp]

The idea that Varys meant the COTF when he said "for the children" while killing Kevan Lannister really boggled my mind. That would be sweet, and would actually give a plausible explanation (though not a motive, exactly, since he definitely isn't a COTF) for his actions.

But concerning the main topic: are the "Sidhe" considered malevolent in Celtic mythology? Or are they only the aesthetic inspiration for the Others?

[7V3N]

Ramsay Gimp, on 01 July 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

But concerning the main topic: are the "Sidhe" considered malevolent in Celtic mythology? Or are they only the aesthetic inspiration for the Others?

GRRM describing the look of the Others to the comic book artist:
“strange, beautiful…think, oh…the Sidhe made of ice, something like that…a different sort of life…inhuman, elegant, dangerous”

I am not exactly sure if they all are malevolent. I am aware they they often took a sort of toll from the people in the nearby lands, and would sometimes kidnap children and replace them with one of their own (the changeling idea in the mythology).

[Black Crow]

Ramsay Gimp, on 01 July 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

The idea that Varys meant the COTF when he said "for the children" while killing Kevan Lannister really boggled my mind. That would be sweet, and would actually give a plausible explanation (though not a motive, exactly, since he definitely isn't a COTF) for his actions.

But concerning the main topic: are the "Sidhe" considered malevolent in Celtic mythology? Or are they only the aesthetic inspiration for the Others?

Discussed in great depth on the Heresy threads where we first revealed the possible connection to the Sidhe. The Sidhe are noble but very proud and very touchy. They are often cruel, but show them proper respect and they can be fair. They are also into changelings; taking human children to raise as their servants and sometimes leaving their own in exchange - a trait which is significant when considering Craster's sons and the tale of Bael the Bard.

The short answer to your question is that the description quoted was indeed intended to assist an aesthetic interpretation of their appearance by the artist, but GRRM obviously had them on his mind and a lot of what little we do know about them slots into place if we compare them more broadly with the Sidhe.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I suppose that would tie in with the Others formerly having a kind of truce or arrangement with humanity (perhaps through the "Kings of Winter") which has been broken, thus explaining their extreme hostility. An end to human sacrifice, perhaps?

Edited by Ramsay Gimp, 02 July 2012 - 01:58 PM.

[FloZone]

binga, on 01 June 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

I think White Walkers are the oldest race of creatures. Even older than the children, giants, or humans. I think Bran will go into their lair telepathically and actually discover they are an advanced magical race with their own purposes. I fell their story is tragic. They were a great race, probably similar to elves, but calamity struck them somehow. They felt so much pain that they used their magic to turn themselves into ice creatures, so that they could live without the fires of emotions and passions. They are perfecly preserved, perfecly free from pain.

I think the Others are completly different from the CotF and I do believe the CotF are the real evil. Not the surviving Children in present, but the ones in the past. Before the arrival of the First Men. Look they started a twothousand year war because the First Men chopped down the trees. I could understand how they were angry because of the Weirwoods chopped down. The FM could have sparred out this one species very easily, but the CotF wanted to avenge every goddamn tree. Thats my opinion why it took so long till the signing of the pact. As for the Others, they are a race that literally bring the cold. They can kill alone with their presence. Sure the CotF hated them. This makes the CotF to fascist, who killed them just because they were different. The CotF knew about the Dragonglass and kept the Others from leaving the Lands of Always Winter. The Weirwoods might have been their borderpatrol. As the First Men arrived and decimated the CotF the Others were given a chance to repopulate and conquer the southern lands. Their only motive was vengeance. Due the persecution the Others became extremists and aware to use their powers and caused the Long Night. Theirs power to animate the dead comes from their nature and connection to The Great Other like the Red Priests can ressurect aswell. It is their nature they are feared for and their answer to this fear is hate. Like a shadow is created by the light the "evil" Others are created by the "pure" CotF. And I'm sure the CotF of past times were pure fascist. They shattered the Stepstones and tried to shatter the Neck, too. This sounds like a cry for "Endsieg" for me. This is no noble sacrifiece to safe their precious trees, this is madness.

[kissdbyfire]

binga, on 01 June 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

I think White Walkers are the oldest race of creatures. Even older than the children, giants, or humans. I think Bran will go into their lair telepathically and actually discover they are an advanced magical race with their own purposes. I fell their story is tragic. They were a great race, probably similar to elves, but calamity struck them somehow. They felt so much pain that they used their magic to turn themselves into ice creatures, so that they could live without the fires of emotions and passions. They are perfecly preserved, perfecly free from pain.

This made me think of Vulcans and the advanced ritual of Kolinahr.

Edited by kissdbyfire, 02 July 2012 - 03:05 PM.