33 replies to this topic

[ForeverBallin]

I would say the Reach is the most powerful, being able to muster the most troops, having many prominent lords, these being comparable even to their liege (the Rowans, Redwynes, Hightowers, Tarleys), the most agricultural production, and being almost the wealthiest. That's my contribution.

[TheFlayedMan]

I would agree. Cor, I'd love to see Highgarden.

The only problem with the Reach is its military. Lots of knights and soldiers, but IIRC the soldiers aren't trained terribly well.

Edited by TheFlayedMan, 03 February 2012 - 03:45 PM.

[Bajaz]

True,who have reach on their side is strongest pretender for iron throne.

[Apple Martini]

I agree that the Reach is probably overall the strongest kingdom, in terms of wealth, fertility and strength of the houses.

The Westerlands don't seem terribly fertile because of the rocky soil, but they have plenty of gold to balance it out.

Dorne is arid and with a low population, but it's difficult to contend with militarily because of the terrain.

The Riverlands have a large population, lots of lands, fertile soil and plenty of waterways for fishing and transportion, but they're almost impossible to defend.

The Vale has some fertile ground and is difficult to defeat militarily, but I get the impression that it isn't that strongly populated and doesn't have as much actual land.

The North has land mass and defensibility on its side, but has a lower population and probably a shorter growing season because of the climate.

The Iron Islands seem pretty weak, given that they can't grow anything and rely on pillaging to survive. Not much in terms of land or population or resources.

The Stormlands are pretty arid, I understand, and not very fertile or populated. I get the impression that not much is there.

So each kingdom has its own strengths and weaknesses. I agree that the Reach is the strongest, with the Westerlands, the North, the Riverlands, Dorne and the Vale following and roughly the same when you balance it all out. The Iron Islands and the Stormlands seem like they're easily at the bottom.

[CC-Kingmaker]

Here is my list of my power preference

Reach (Simply most food, money and everything)
Westerlands (The Lannister gold, and the best army)
North (Largest, able to put many things into the fold)
Stormlands (Kings area, many powerful liege lords)
Eyrie (Obviously they could have been a big help to Robb...)
Riverlands (Better with a stronger leader, war zone otherwse)
Dorne (Too isolated, picks their times)
Ironborn (Could care less about influence)

[ForeverBallin]

CC-Kingmaker, on 03 February 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

Here is my list of my power preference

Reach (Simply most food, money and everything)
Westerlands (The Lannister gold, and the best army)
North (Largest, able to put many things into the fold)
Stormlands (Kings area, many powerful liege lords)
Eyrie (Obviously they could have been a big help to Robb...)
Riverlands (Better with a stronger leader, war zone otherwse)
Dorne (Too isolated, picks their times)
Ironborn (Could care less about influence)

Actually the seat of the king is in the Crownlands

[Shay Baratheon]

Well it's all about alliances... The Reach might have the best provisions and amount of troops, but they also have many fronts to face - from the west - the Westerlands, from the east - the Stormlands, South - Dorne, North - the Crownlands.

[the Scorpion Knight]

the strength of the iron born is their fleet(largest of all seven), not to mention that every non-thrall is a potenial reaver and that they are an archpelagos of islands

[ForeverBallin]

the Scorpion Knight, on 03 February 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

the strength of the iron born is their fleet(largest of all seven), not to mention that every non-thrall is a potenial reaver and that they are an archpelagos of islands

true dat

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

From what time period do you speak?

assuming from the beginning of the series. Its the westerlands by far as the strongest. They have a less land, but they can buy provisions, they're centrally located while having limited points of entry and stout fortifications.

after that i might say the vale. Again its all about the ability to defend its borders.

then the reach. They're wide open to attack from the iron islands, the westerlands, the stormlands and dorne.

the north. my personal view is the north used to have a much larger population, a war fleet, and is now suffering from mismanagement. still as long as their force doesn't get trapped below the neck, they're strong enough.

the stormlands. lots of knights, but there're a lot of geographic barriers preventing the lords from quickly unifying their forces.

dorne, like the northmen the have good natural defenses but no navy and are even less able to project their power.

the iron islands, they project their power well but can't hold territory without the support of the populace.

the riverlands. they share a border with every other kingdom except dorne.

the iron islands and the riverlands should merge into one kingdom. The Trident would provide canal allowing the ironmen to have a presence on the narrow sea. I assume that's what black harren was going for.

[ForeverBallin]

Howland Reed, on 03 February 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

From what time period do you speak?

assuming from the beginning of the series. Its the westerlands by far as the strongest. They have a less land, but they can buy provisions, they're centrally located while having limited points of entry and stout fortifications.

after that i might say the vale. Again its all about the ability to defend its borders.

then the reach. They're wide open to attack from the iron islands, the westerlands, the stormlands and dorne.

the north. my personal view is the north used to have a much larger population, a war fleet, and is now suffering from mismanagement. still as long as their force doesn't get trapped below the neck, they're strong enough.

the stormlands. lots of knights, but there're a lot of geographic barriers preventing the lords from quickly unifying their forces.

dorne, like the northmen the have good natural defenses but no navy and are even less able to project their power.

the iron islands, they project their power well but can't hold territory without the support of the populace.

the riverlands. they share a border with every other kingdom except dorne.

the iron islands and the riverlands should merge into one kingdom. The Trident would provide canal allowing the ironmen to have a presence on the narrow sea. I assume that's what black harren was going for.

The North is the Alaska of Westeros. Not much of a fleet, thinly populated.

[Free Northman]

ForeverBallin, on 03 February 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

The North is the Alaska of Westeros. Not much of a fleet, thinly populated.

No it is not. The lands beyond the Wall are the equivalent of Alaska or Canada. Very sparsely populated over a vast, forested and mountainous area.

The North on the other hand, is more like Russia or Germany.

If the North was Alaska, then the lands beyond the Wall would be the North pole. Instead, we see at least a thousand miles of forest north of the Wall, and an inderminate distance of icy wastelands north of that, before you get to what would be the North Pole.

The Wall itself is therefore south of where Alaska would be, and the North itself stretches down 1500 miles south of that.

Edited by Free Northman, 03 February 2012 - 07:14 PM.

[Monk Meth-]

Reach to me is pretty over-rated in this thread.

[Free Northman]

In fact, the northernmost forest on earth occurs at about 72 degrees latitude. If you estimate the Haunted Forest at about 800 miles from north to south, then it means the Wall would be at roughly 60 degrees latitude.

And if you estimate the Neck to be about 1200 miles south of the Wall, then it means the area between the Wall and the Neck stretches roughly from 60 degrees latitude down to about 45 degrees latitude. In the real world, 45 degrees latitude passes well south of Germany, through France, Italy, Croatia, Kazakstan and roughly through the border between Montana and Wyoming.

So clearly, the North is far south of Alaska.

Edited by Free Northman, 03 February 2012 - 07:14 PM.

[ForeverBallin]

Free Northman, on 03 February 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

No it is not. The lands beyond the Wall are the equivalent of Alaska or Canada. Very sparsely populated over a vast, forested and mountainous area.

The North on the other hand, is more like Russia or Germany.

If the North was Alaska, then the lands beyond the Wall would be the North pole. Instead, we see at least a thousand miles of forest north of the Wall, and an inderminate distance of icy wastelands north of that, before you get to what would be the North Pole.

The Wall itself is therefore south of where Alaska would be, and the North itself stretches down 1500 miles south of that.

I meant demographically

[Free Northman]

The Neck itself would occupy the area between about 45 and 42 degrees latitude, meaning it would be approximately as far south as France, South Dakota, Wyoming, Pensylvania, Italy etc. in the real world.

Edited by Free Northman, 03 February 2012 - 07:27 PM.

[Free Northman]

ForeverBallin, on 03 February 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

I meant demographically

But the entire reason for disputing your assertion from a geographical viewpoint, is to show that you are incorrect in comparing the North demographically with Alaska.

The North, comparative to the rest of Westeros, has a FAR higher population than Alaska has to say the rest of the United States. In fact, based on comments from Martin and other information, the North most likely has the 2nd or third largest population of all Seven Kingdoms.

The Reach outnumbers them, and the Westerlands and Riverlands probably match them, but what makes the North look sparsely populated is its low population density, not its low overall population.

The population is likely as big as that of the Westerlands, just spread out over about 5 times as much area, meaning for every 5 people you would come across in the Westerlands, you would only see 1 person in an area of corresponding size in the North. But add them all together and they number as many as the population of the Westerlands.

Edited by Free Northman, 03 February 2012 - 07:28 PM.

[jarl the climber]

I think that the Vale is in the srongest posistion now, Littlefinger has been hording foodstuffs and plans to use this as a political weapon. The Reach probaly has the largest population and most diverse resources but maintaining large armies and the war with the Ironborn will make them vulnerable to a harsh winter. Dorne is probaly the only other region that is well prepared for winter. I think the North is the 2nd most populous of the 7 but it is the poorest.

[Arkash]

Quote

the riverlands. they share a border with every other kingdom except dorne.

And the Stormlands.

Quote

the iron islands and the riverlands should merge into one kingdom. The Trident would provide canal allowing the ironmen to have a presence on the narrow sea. I assume that's what black harren was going for.

Well, remember it was. The Riverlands is the Eight Kingdoms because it belonged to the Iron Islands before, during the time of Harren the Black. Then, after his fall, did it become a separate kingdom.

I'd go:

I - The Reach.
II - Westlands.
III - Riverlands.
IV - Crownlands.
V - North.
VI - Dorne.
VII - Stormlands.
VIII - Iron Islands.
IX - The Vale.

Edited by Arkash, 03 February 2012 - 07:38 PM.

[Free Northman]

In terms of power, I would rank the kingdoms as follows:

Westerlands (because of their gold which could buy 50 000 mercenaries in an emergency)
North/ Reach
Vale
Dorne
Stormlands
Riverlands
Iron Islands

The North's weakness is also its strength. Winter and land area. Just like Russia. The North can NEVER be conquered by conventional armies, because come winter any invaders would inevitably die out. Just like Napoleon and Hitler's Russian campaings destroyed their dreams of Empire, so too will the North eventually crush any invader.

Short term conquests like we currently saw from the Ironmen are meaningless, because they only ever last until Winter arrives. That, more than Moat Cailin, is why the North has never been conquered.

The Reach's great population is undermined by its weak strategic postion, surrounded by foes on every side, and sitting on lands that are easily conquered by an enemy.

The Vale is aided by its mountains, which makes them stronger than say the Riverlands or Stormlands. But they are not as secure as the North, which could not be conquered by the Andals for 6000 years, while the Vale for all its mountain fortresses fell quite quickly.

Edited by Free Northman, 03 February 2012 - 07:38 PM.