One Thing I Have Noticed....

[Lady Eireanne Stark]

I have noticed that a fair few people are up in arms at the fact that Sansa is only 13 and is married off to Tyrion who then gets 'turned on' by her lying naked on the marital bed. These same people also say that The hound is a pervert because he fancies Sansa and then there is the creepyness of Littlefinger.

The thing is no-one says anything about Dany and Khal Drogo regardless of the fact that Dany is 13 or 14 in the books when she is essentially sold to Khal Drogo. He then proceeds to rape her continually until eventually they fall in love.

So I guess my question is is why is it acceptable in Dany and Drogo and not with Sansa? :)

[Crown]

Because Drogo is a savage barbarian, and Tyrion a highborn lord.

[HyacinthGirl]

Some people do talk about how Dany and Drogo's relationship isn't "right", - but remember not to confuse the wedding night TV scene (which makes it rape) with the chapter in the books (which is consensual).

The ages of the younger female characters gets discussed a lot, but strictly speaking they don't have to be acceptable by modern standards: firstly, it's fantasy, and secondly, in medieval times girls had to grow up a lot faster than they do today. Both in Westeros and in medieval times, once you'd "flowered", you were a woman and were ready for sex. It isn't right but it's the way things were in the past, and are in a fictional world we read about.

I think the books have made us all pretty immune to unhealthy/abnormal/disturbing sexual incidents by now so sorry if I'm not making much sense. In the real world, it would be so wrong, in fantasy, you just go with it.

[Heavy Horse]

...Tyrion a highborn lord.

who of course had little choice. He should of know better the perverted little imp.

[The GRRumbler]

I think they're both wrong.

[The Roaring Bear]

I see nothing wrong with either of them considering the society that they are in.

Women were for making babies and alliances back in the day, so you would want to get as much use out of them as possible and get them young. The younger they start makin' babies the more babies they can make! One because obviously they'll have more baby making years ahead of them, but also because their bodies are young they can recover easier from the birthing process (though it was still very very dangerous). If I recall properly, Henry I of England sent his daughter Matilda to the Holy Roman Emperor to be married when she was 8. She was trained in German culture and stuff and supposed to not be touched until she had her first period.

There were stigmas and such and laws on pedophilia then as there are now, the difference of course is that then it was based on nature and when the body matured, now its an arbitrary number that differs country to country (US- 18, UK - 16, Hungary - 14).

In regards to being disgusted with Tyrion for getting aroused at a naked young girl in his bed, get real. Every man would get aroused with a naked young girl in the bed, even today, that's nature and our urge to spread our seed... The difference is a creepy pervert acts on it, and "not a pervert" does not.

[Fragile Bird]

In the summertime when I might go off to the countryside for a drive, I sometimes pull over when I see an old cemetary, just to walk around and read the headstones. You get a real feel for history. A lot will date back to the early 1800s, sometimes into the 1700s, but nothing around here in the 1600s.

The ages of the dead are so revealing. 18, died in childbirth. 23, died, and also in the same grave, baby x, 3 days old. Sometimes you'll see the graves of 2 or 3 or even 4 women with the same last name, obviously married to the same man. Died in childbirth.

That's why the brides are 13, 14, 15. The better to survive.

Think of medieval times, which Westeros is certainly in. Of course they married at 13. Hell, they died at 40. When Jaime returns from his imprisonment, he meets with the Kingsguard, most of whom he doesn't know. He questions Ser Balon about his family's loyalty to the crown, about how Balon's father didn't join the battle. Ser Balon says, he's over 40, he's was way too old to fight.

Don't get fooled by the HBO series. Most of the actors are at least 10 years older than the characters in the book. Ser Loras tells Jaime he's old now - the guy's 32 or 33 (and Nick is 42). Loras is 17. Tyrion is 23, Peter D. is 42. The male characters are pretty young as are the women.

So, the 23 year old (maybe 24 by now) Tyrion gets turned on by 14 year old Sansa. No surprise. I haven't calculated how old Drogo was, I'm not even sure you can, but again I'm sure he's not that old. I don't remember if his age is mentioned.

[Drowsey Dragon]

In the summertime when I might go off to the countryside for a drive, I sometimes pull over when I see an old cemetary, just to walk around and read the headstones. You get a real feel for history. A lot will date back to the early 1800s, sometimes into the 1700s, but nothing around here in the 1600s.

The ages of the dead are so revealing. 18, died in childbirth. 23, died, and also in the same grave, baby x, 3 days old. Sometimes you'll see the graves of 2 or 3 or even 4 women with the same last name, obviously married to the same man. Died in childbirth.

That's why the brides are 13, 14, 15. The better to survive.

Think of medieval times, which Westeros is certainly in. Of course they married at 13. Hell, they died at 40. When Jaime returns from his imprisonment, he meets with the Kingsguard, most of whom he doesn't know. He questions Ser Balon about his family's loyalty to the crown, about how Balon's father didn't join the battle. Ser Balon says, he's over 40, he's was way too old to fight.

Don't get fooled by the HBO series. Most of the actors are at least 10 years older than the characters in the book. Ser Loras tells Jaime he's old now - the guy's 32 or 33 (and Nick is 42). Loras is 17. Tyrion is 23, Peter D. is 42. The male characters are pretty young as are the women.

So, the 23 year old (maybe 24 by now) Tyrion gets turned on by 14 year old Sansa. No surprise. I haven't calculated how old Drogo was, I'm not even sure you can, but again I'm sure he's not that old. I don't remember if his age is mentioned.

In the book GOT it is mentioned that he is 30. It is totally acceptable in this world for grown men to sleep with just "flowered" girls. They were considered mature and ready for marriage. Tyrion being aroused by a beautiful young naked woman in his bed does not make him a pervert. It shows he had character by not forcing himself on her which he certainly could have and had the right to do as her husband in that world.

[The Roaring Bear]

In the book GOT it is mentioned that he is 30. It is totally acceptable in this world for grown men to sleep with just "flowered" girls. They were considered mature and ready for marriage. Tyrion being aroused by a beautiful young naked woman in his bed does not make him a pervert. It shows he had character by not forcing himself on her which he certainly could have and had the right to do as her husband in that world.

Thats absolutely correct. I think it beneficial to point out some facts from our own world's medieval period.

During the medieval era (A broad term considering it spanned roughly 1000 years and there was obviously changes in custom and such over that time frame).

A wife was property. This meant that a husband could not "rape" his wife. In fact he could force himself on her any way he chose and it was perfectly fine. Now, sex was seen as a means to an end, it was meant entirely for the purpose of spawning children, so the participants were not supposed to enjoy it, and not do anything other than missionary position, anything else was a sin. So for instance, if a man decided to force himself on his wife and sodomize her, it was a sin... but a sin for the woman to confess, not necessarily the man.

It was not considered rape if the woman orgasmed (because clearly she enjoyed it right? lol (alo, I'm not sure how they would have proved this)).

You could not rape a prostitute. If you forced yourself on a prostitute against her will then did not pay her it was theft (if it could be sold it could be stolen) but if you forced yourself on her, then gave her money it was fine.

[Robin Of House Hill]

It seems to me that judging the age of anyone in a world where the seasons are of variable length, a long night can be really long and moss grows on the south side of trees, we shouldn't let the world we actually live in influence us too much. But, since I'm still reading, what do I know. :rolleyes:

[Chise]

So I guess my question is is why is it acceptable in Dany and Drogo and not with Sansa? :)

Its not acceptable on either count, by modern standards

Also many people tend to see the characters in terms of HBO's show - where Dany is clearly over 13 (Emilia is 24), so seems a tiny bit less crazy

[Ser Malthred Storm]

Its not acceptable on either count, by modern standards

Also many people tend to see the characters in terms of HBO's show - where Dany is clearly over 13 (Emilia is 24), so seems a tiny bit less crazy

When reading a series that has completely different moral values and ages of adulthood, it is best not to bring modern standards into light. 15-16 is considered adult, or younger if you have "flowered". As stated before, Tyrion may have been attracted to Sansa, but proved himself by saying he will not have sex with her, until she consents to it.

[Lady Eireanne Stark]

Thanks for your ideas guys! I just wanted to start a debate really :P I guess I know that age and acceptabitlity in 'those days' were completely different to what is acceptable today.

I think Dany and Drogo is probably more accepted because they eventually fell in love and if Sansa was in love with Tyrion or The Hound then I guess that would be deemed more acceptable too....

[House Balstroko]

In the show the ages of the characters was also sometimes altered. If I'm not mistaken, Bran says he's 10 in AGOT (show) whereas in the book he was 7 at that point.

[Robin Of House Hill]

You are not mistaken. The show changed the ages to make things seem more acceptable. What I can't understand is that why, in a world that can have Summer last nine years, does everyone assume a year is 365 days? If a year were say, 520 days, the age issue wouldn't exist. I haven't found anything in what I've read that specifies the length of a year.

[HyacinthGirl]

You are not mistaken. The show changed the ages to make things seem more acceptable. What I can't understand is that why, in a world that can have Summer last nine years, does everyone assume a year is 365 days? If a year were say, 520 days, the age issue wouldn't exist. I haven't found anything in what I've read that specifies the length of a year.

I spent ages thinking about this, but there is a SSM which pretty much confirms that there are 365 days in a year in the ASOIAFiverse.

http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/2997/

[What is the cycle of a year? Why do they count years when seasons are strange?]

Twelve moon tuns to a year, as on earth. Even on our earth, years have nothing to do with the seasons, or with the cycles of the moon. A year is a measure of a solar cycle, of how long it takes the earth to make one complete revolution around the sun. The same is true for the world of Westeros. Seasons do not come into it.

[Robin Of House Hill]

It is funny how two people can read the same words and reach different conclusions. " Even on our earth, years have nothing to do with the seasons", establishes that it is not on our earth, leaving the lenght of the year unknown.

My reference to the length of the seasons was meant to point out that the world of ASOIAF doesn't have the same parameters as we are accustomed to. I've theorized all kinds of things, such as a world in a nearly circular orbit with an axis of rotation that isn't constant, but I'm not happy with any I've thought of, so far. It is one of the things that makes it so interesting.

[Wight Walker]

I feel as though the years are longer. It seems weird to imagine someone who is about 15 years old can rule a kingdom, and Joffrey at about 13 was young but certainly not ridiculously so or at least it seems that way in the way he is written.

I believe Jaime was knighted at 15 as well and named to the Kingsguard at 17 so you have to imagine that they are much more matured then someone of our 15/17 year olds.

[Blangadanger]

It is funny how two people can read the same words and reach different conclusions. " Even on our earth, years have nothing to do with the seasons", establishes that it is not on our earth, leaving the lenght of the year unknown.

My reference to the length of the seasons was meant to point out that the world of ASOIAF doesn't have the same parameters as we are accustomed to. I've theorized all kinds of things, such as a world in a nearly circular orbit with an axis of rotation that isn't constant, but I'm not happy with any I've thought of, so far. It is one of the things that makes it so interesting.

Well in regards to seasons, I've always assumed that this world just had variable weather that's not really tied to seasons in the way we think of them. They're not regular intervals. You can have 3 years of warmth followed by 5 years of freezing temperatures, and you can't really predict when it will start and end respectively. When they mention the long winters in Westeros, I think of the incredibly brutal winters suffered during the Little Ice Age in the Northern Hemisphere of Earth between the 1500s and 1800s that were interspersed with dry, warm periods. One of the reasons depictions of the American Revolution often feature snow is because it was snowing many more months of the year during the 1770s.

So in the same way that we can have a period of several cold, wet years of abnormal weather, Westeros can have periods of brutal winters followed by mild, plentiful summers. That they call them seasons is really more of a commonly perceived myth in my opinion. Think of the way we commonly say "boy we're having a longer winter this year"; that doesn't mean that the Earth is moving any slower. Time remains unaffected.

[Fragile Bird]

I believe Jaime was knighted at 15 as well and named to the Kingsguard at 17 so you have to imagine that they are much more matured then someone of our 15/17 year olds.

Became a squire at 11, won his first tournament melee at 13, knighted at 13 by Ser Arthur Dayne, Kingsguard at 15, Kingslayer at 17 FYI. From the Wiki.