123 replies to this topic

[Morky_Pep]

The inevitable explanation of The Others has loomed over Martin for five books now. We've seen bits and pieces; enough to keep us interested, but we really don't know much at all. Supposedly there is only two more books in the series so it seems inevitable that we will get major explanations in TWOW.
Now I am a believer that The Others are not just black and white evil and just want to irraticate human life; I beleve they have a motive, and although I do not think we will get a scientific explanation of their origins, i do expect Martin to find a middle ground between black and white-- grey. There is evidence: the wights showing intelligence when trying to kill Mormont(if the slaves are smart, obviously the masters are), the prologue of AGOT explains them laughing and in the show the white walker taunts Will by throwing his friends head at him. Also there is the story of The Knight King, of a man from Winterfell falling in love with an ice woman(obviously whether she is an other is up for interpretation)and this would show that they are capable of complex emotions. Bottom line is that this whole series has been about people being good and evil at the same time, and none of the main characters are one dimensional, and i feel it would be inconsistent for the main antagonist(the others) to be one dimensional.
I think we will see the beginning of the invasion of The Others near the end of TWOW, but in all seriousness, we need to learn some answers before they come, and for that we need POV's. I think we will see answers from Sam down in Oldtown, because they clearly know things about magic, but I think the main POV that will give us answers will be Jon.

Crackpot coming in now:
I agree with people and think that Jon will warg with ghost at the beginning of the novel, but that he will soon come back alive like Catelyn and Beric ect. The Nights Watch will be shocked, and will chase him off beyond the wall, and there he will be taken in with The Others. Sounds crazy i know, bnut makes sense doesnt it? I mean he would technically be a wight so they would accept him, and it seems like a similiar situation happened with Coldhands, but then he decided to switch sides. Also it would kind be another parralel to his whole "turncloak" arc. Not saying that hes going to turn bad(although i do think he will be changed and more darker as we have seen with other revivals(Lady Stoneheart anyone?)), but he has already been wanting answers about The Others(dead bodies in ice cells) and has nowhere else to go. Through Jon, we will get a better background of The Others. I think other possible plots to his arc coulod be the finding of the ACTUAL horn of jarumon,meeting the Great Other, maybe running into Bran(wouldnt that be awesome), finding out his true parentage(If R+L=J is true) and struggling with how he feels about it, and ending it with the destruction of the Wall and the beginning of a souther undead march.

Kind of a wild idea, what do you think? I just feel that in order for the Others to be an effective plot device, we need a firsthand view at them before they begin to invade. Otherwise its kinda just like orcs coming to kill because they are mindless and hate humans, and ASOIF is NOT like that.

[dreamcatcher]

I just feel that this has been done already with Jon joining the Wildlings... It would be a bit overdone if he did it again, if you ask me. But I guess anything is possible.

[Lady Octarina]

I agree they'll probably be shown in their complexity, but why would we need Jon for that? I think it's much more likely we'll learn more about them from Bran, who's in a good position for that, and Sam, who was already researching them at the Wall. Or maybe the maester (Marwyn?) finally reaches Daenerys (or Tyrion or Victarion, any POV character in Slaver's Bay) and explains a little more about the Others? He might know something, being into magic and all.

[Landis]

I agree with dreamcatcher regarding, but I share your opinion that the Others are likely much different from what we are led to believe. Fear breeds contempt, and time serves to feed both. Neither of GRRM's mysterious Beyond the Wall peoples have been seen for a very long time... I would not be surprised if massive misconceptions have formed over the course of those 1000 years.

[Carey Snow]

Lady Octarina, on 04 February 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

I agree they'll probably be shown in their complexity, but why would we need Jon for that? I think it's much more likely we'll learn more about them from Bran, who's in a good position for that, and Sam, who was already researching them at the Wall. Or maybe the maester (Marwyn?) finally reaches Daenerys (or Tyrion or Victarion, any POV character in Slaver's Bay) and explains a little more about the Others? He might know something, being into magic and all.

I agree with Bran giving insight into the others. Heck, he is right in the heart of the Other's army as it is and he now controls the Godswoods.

As for Jon, I believe we find him south of the wall either dealing with Bolton or off in search of Arya when the Other's break though Mel, the Night'swatch, and the wall.

I do agree with the OP in that the Others will prove to be more complex and "Gray" than first thought. That is just how Mr. Martin rolls.

Edited by Carey Wilson, 04 February 2012 - 09:05 PM.

[Ghost714]

I can only see Jon learning about the Others, in two ways, either through Ghost, or Bran.
While Jon is recovering/waiting to be resurrected, he will most likely be spending that time inside Ghost. What better way to learn about the Others, save through the eyes of a Direwolf. Ghost can travel around North of the Walll relatively fast, so it will not take a lot of time. Ghost can survive such harsh conditions, and it won't be just Ghost, Jon will be capable of making the more intuitive decisions.
Or while Jon is in a "coma like state", with the help of Bloodraven Bran could communicate with Jon, thus allowing Jon to know all there is to know about the Others. Bran can now see through the Weirwoods, and there are lots of Weirwoods North of the Wall(or can Bran see through any tree?). Also not only can Bran see what the Others are doing, Bran can also look back into time, and that could offer some more valuable insight, on the Others.
I really can't buy into the whole idea that,"Jon will be resurrected, and then Jon will join the Others, to learn more about them". Number one, Jon already did that with the Wildlings, but that's not even the real reason of why that idea is so ridicules. Jon would be "resurrected" via fire, from Melisandre. So this whole idea that the Others would just accept Jon, because he is dead, or was dead... That just does not make sense. Last I checked fire is the death of ice, and the Others won't be cool with accepting someone who is resurrected "via fire". Also like I said, we have already heard that tune before, with Jon and the Wildlings. So I just really don't think there is any way in seven hells that, that will happen. Same goes for Jon becoming the "Great Other", and leading The Others..... There are so many things that do not make sense with that theory, and it would make most of Jon's story a complete waist. So if anyone honestly believes that will happen, all I can say is, really, really think about it. Like for real, and you will see it does not make any sense....at all.


Another way for Jon(and the other people fighting the Others), to learn more about the Others, is through Benjen Stark. That could be a cool way to uncover the mystery, of what happened to the missing First Ranger. For everyone to find out that Benjen has been on a black-ops- recon-mission, learning about the Others??? I think it's possible Benjen is alive, I don't know how likely it is, but it's possible. For those of us who believe Benjen is Coldhands, then it could still be Benjen educating Jon about the Others. So that would kill two birds with one stone, we learn about the Others, and what happened to Benjen Stark. I think it's possible, though I lean more on the Jon through Ghost theory, or the Jon through Bran theory myself.

Edited by Ghost714, 05 February 2012 - 07:47 PM.

[flatworld]

With lady Melisandre knowing similar magics as Thoros of Myr, I don't think Jon's resurection (if he's dead) will take very long, and thus "waiting for his resurection" wouldn't fit. However, if he is merely on the verge of death and is recovering from the stab wounds as a still living man, then he'd have plenty of time to warg through the North.

It does seem that Bran will give one side of the Others story, while Sam will give the other and between the two of them we will achieve grey.

As for Benjen, I don't think he'd be coldhands. Even bundled up as he was I think Bran would have given us a better clue to that. But could Benjen have gone as far north as the Lands of Always Winter? Dead or not, I don't think Benjen's story is over.

Jon isn't even necessary for destroying the Boltons, with Manderly and Stannis in the area. I'm going to stick with the obvious play that Jon is Azor Ahai. He will make LongClaw into Lightbringer by killing lady Melisandre (but first, i hope he tries on Selyse) and he will slay the dead as they threaten the realms of man.

Time for my CRACKPOT THEORY.

Not really a theory, so much as I just want the Others to get across the narrow sea and wreak some have on that spoiled rotten continent of Essos.

[4rcane]

The Others better be involved in the background in the first five book or it be poor story telling. It be like, reading 3 books of lord of the rings then superman appear out of nowhere and saves the day

[Ghost714]

4rcane, on 05 February 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

The Others better be involved in the background in the first five book or it be poor story telling. It be like, reading 3 books of lord of the rings then superman appear out of nowhere and saves the day

Have you read the first 5 books, the Others ARE in the "background"???  I really am confused by this post.

Edited by Ghost714, 05 February 2012 - 08:57 PM.

[the wolf warg]

4rcane, on 05 February 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

The Others better be involved in the background in the first five book or it be poor story telling. It be like, reading 3 books of lord of the rings then superman appear out of nowhere and saves the day

if u havent read the first five books why are u in this forum?

i agree with the fact the others may have a more noble cause than just wiping out the world but i think that they were probally the original inhabitants of westeros until the age of heros began and bran the builder drove them from the south and built the wall to contain them now they want to free there people and are seen as evil because times are so different
or
there just evil bastards who want everyone dead only martin knows

[Ghost714]

flatworld, on 05 February 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

With lady Melisandre knowing similar magics as Thoros of Myr, I don't think Jon's resurection (if he's dead) will take very long, and thus "waiting for his resurection" wouldn't fit. However, if he is merely on the verge of death and is recovering from the stab wounds as a still living man, then he'd have plenty of time to warg through the North.

It does seem that Bran will give one side of the Others story, while Sam will give the other and between the two of them we will achieve grey.

As for Benjen, I don't think he'd be coldhands. Even bundled up as he was I think Bran would have given us a better clue to that. But could Benjen have gone as far north as the Lands of Always Winter? Dead or not, I don't think Benjen's story is over.

Jon isn't even necessary for destroying the Boltons, with Manderly and Stannis in the area. I'm going to stick with the obvious play that Jon is Azor Ahai. He will make LongClaw into Lightbringer by killing lady Melisandre (but first, i hope he tries on Selyse) and he will slay the dead as they threaten the realms of man.

Time for my CRACKPOT THEORY.

Not really a theory, so much as I just want the Others to get across the narrow sea and wreak some have on that spoiled rotten continent of Essos.

If Jon is to become AA(and I think he might), and if Lightbringer is an actual Sword(and not a metaphor for the Nights Watch), and if Jon reforges Longclaw into Lightbringer, then why would Jon try to temper the Blade using Queen Selyse or Melisandre? Why would Selyse or Mel be Jon's Nissa Nissa? Jon doesn't love them, it makes no sense at all that Jon would stab either one of them. I think that is complete wishful thinking on your part, no doubt because you dislike both Mel and Selyse. I can not fault you for not liking Selyse(who does?), but I can for wanting Melisandre stabbed. Melisandre "getting" the "pointy end" of Lightbringer, is not only bad because it would make for a unrealistic sacrifice for Jon, but also because Melisandre is one of the only people serious about fighting the Others. So I for one, am thankful that Mel is at the Wall(despite many people hating her), because Mel's new awakened power(from being at The Wall, and the birth of Dragons), is going to be very valuable when it comes to fighting the Others.

Edited by Ghost714, 07 February 2012 - 02:36 AM.

[Lionofwar87]

I personally enjoy the thought of fake Arya being Jon's Nissa Nissa. I think Jon will experience a certain amount of 'undeath' similair to Beric more so than Cat. In the Theron POV preview, it was metion Jeyne (fake Arya) might lose her nose to frostbite, I believe that deformity plus other factors like time/aging will cause Jon to not recognize Jeyne. His reforging of lightbringer via Jeyne will suffice because in his heart, he'll think he's killed Arya.
Im personally curious to see if Mel is a 'stronger' magic user than Thoros and if her resurrection spell will grant a greater postive or negative effect on the persons mind.

I enjoyed the OP's theory but I do agree the turncoat arc was done with the wildings.

I think the Stark children will be more callous in the next novel with Arya being instrumental to the FM, Sansa devolping that heartless court personality and Bran accepting "sacrifice" types of thinking.

Edited by Lionofwar87, 06 February 2012 - 06:48 AM.

[Lady Octarina]

Lionofwar87, on 06 February 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

I personally enjoy the thought of fake Arya being Jon's Nissa Nissa. I think Jon will experience a certain amount of 'undeath' similair to Beric more so than Cat. In the Theron POV preview, it was metion Jeyne (fake Arya) might lose her nose to frostbite, I believe that deformity plus other factors like time/aging will cause Jon to not recognize Jeyne. His reforging of lightbringer via Jeyne will suffice because in his heart, he'll think he's killed Arya.
Im personally curious to see if Mel is a 'stronger' magic user than Thoros and if her resurrection spell will grant a greater postive or negative effect on the persons mind.

I agree; if Jon's to be resurrected, I think there's a good chance it will have a different effect on him than Thoros's on Beric (and UnCat), especially since we really have no idea how far Melisandre's power can go. As to Jeyne's dying, I think that's very likely; but, on the other hand, wouldn't her surviving and carrying Ramsay's baby, the heir to the Bolton lineage (which will probably be extinct), and, therefore, becoming the Lady of the Dreadfort, be so completely opposite from whatever ending we expected her to have at the beggining of AGoT, wouldn't it be completely surprising, therefore likely to happen? It could even fit Martin's promise of bittersweet endings, since she always wanted to be a Lady anyway (poor girl lol).

Anyway, Jon's Nissa Nissa... does this sacrifice need to be after he is reborn? Couldn't it be Ygritte's death?

And I think if it were to be Arya, why not the real Arya? As a FM, she could appear at some point with her changed appearance, claiming to be his sister, and him, enraged after being tricked a few times would simply kill her for that. It's not that unlikely, and Arya's chances of surviving this series seem to diminish as each book goes...

[ipsuel]

Lionofwar87, on 06 February 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

I personally enjoy the thought of fake Arya being Jon's Nissa Nissa. I think Jon will experience a certain amount of 'undeath' similair to Beric more so than Cat. In the Theron POV preview, it was metion Jeyne (fake Arya) might lose her nose to frostbite, I believe that deformity plus other factors like time/aging will cause Jon to not recognize Jeyne. His reforging of lightbringer via Jeyne will suffice because in his heart, he'll think he's killed Arya.
Im personally curious to see if Mel is a 'stronger' magic user than Thoros and if her resurrection spell will grant a greater postive or negative effect on the persons mind.

I enjoyed the OP's theory but I do agree the turncoat arc was done with the wildings.

I think the Stark children will be more callous in the next novel with Arya being instrumental to the FM, Sansa devolping that heartless court personality and Bran accepting "sacrifice" types of thinking.

I would think Jon would recognize her eyes are wrong... She doesn't have a deformity/injury that covers up her eyes, does she? No, if Jon doesn't notice the wrong eye color--that would be very poor storytelling imo.

I mean hell, Theon noticed -- Jon oughta notice twice as fast.

[Lionofwar87]

ipsuel, on 06 February 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

I would think Jon would recognize her eyes are wrong... She doesn't have a deformity/injury that covers up her eyes, does she? No, if Jon doesn't notice the wrong eye color--that would be very poor storytelling imo.

I mean hell, Theon noticed -- Jon oughta notice twice as fast.

Ah normally I'd compltly agree. Jon is decent with attention to details. What started my way of thinking is why lose a nose to frostbite? Obviosuly for Tyrion it didnt matter cause he was a dwarf (duh lol). I think a varible are the time frames it takes for these undeath characters to lose memories. How long will it take for Jeyne to arrive at the wall? Will Jon even be awake when she arrives? What comes to mind is at the end of SOS when unCat hangs the epiloge Frey and she claims he had his part with RW. Did she really remember him? Or a spirit of blind vengence?

[ipsuel]

Lionofwar87, on 06 February 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

Ah normally I'd compltly agree. Jon is decent with attention to details. What started my way of thinking is why lose a nose to frostbite? Obviosuly for Tyrion it didnt matter cause he was a dwarf (duh lol). I think a varible are the time frames it takes for these undeath characters to lose memories. How long will it take for Jeyne to arrive at the wall? Will Jon even be awake when she arrives? What comes to mind is at the end of SOS when unCat hangs the epiloge Frey and she claims he had his part with RW. Did she really remember him? Or a spirit of blind vengence?

I understand what you are saying, but imo (which is meaningless lol) it's just not applicable to Jon. We are told thru the books of the Jon/Arya connection over and over again. I just can't see him not recognizing her, even long after he's been re-animated (which I don't think will happen anyway). No, they have a special bond, and to think Jeyne was Arya completely flies in the face of what GRRM has been setting up--a special bond.

If it ever comes to a Jon using Arya as Nissa Nissa situation -- I think it will be the real Arya.

[Lionofwar87]

ipsuel, on 06 February 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

I understand what you are saying, but imo (which is meaningless lol) it's just not applicable to Jon. We are told thru the books of the Jon/Arya connection over and over again. I just can't see him not recognizing her, even long after he's been re-animated (which I don't think will happen anyway). No, they have a special bond, and to think Jeyne was Arya completely flies in the face of what GRRM has been setting up--a special bond.

If it ever comes to a Jon using Arya as Nissa Nissa situation -- I think it will be the real Arya.

Hmmm indeed indeed. I suspect Mel will have a hand in manipulating Jon. That special bond is gonna be cashed in eventually and I hope it's not with Arya dying, she's too awesome :-D Regardless, thanks for the input!!!!!!!

-

After re-reading the prologe for GOT and afew sections in COK, I can certainly see where the OP is coming from. I'd love to see The Others fleshed out as a unified cognitive force. The mocking undertones of the Others in the prologe certainly seems to show an example of a higher intelligence.

[David C. Hunter]

flatworld, on 05 February 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

With lady Melisandre knowing similar magics as Thoros of Myr, I don't think Jon's resurection (if he's dead) will take very long, and thus "waiting for his resurection" wouldn't fit. However, if he is merely on the verge of death and is recovering from the stab wounds as a still living man, then he'd have plenty of time to warg through the North.

It does seem that Bran will give one side of the Others story, while Sam will give the other and between the two of them we will achieve grey.

As for Benjen, I don't think he'd be coldhands. Even bundled up as he was I think Bran would have given us a better clue to that. But could Benjen have gone as far north as the Lands of Always Winter? Dead or not, I don't think Benjen's story is over.

Jon isn't even necessary for destroying the Boltons, with Manderly and Stannis in the area. I'm going to stick with the obvious play that Jon is Azor Ahai. He will make LongClaw into Lightbringer by killing lady Melisandre (but first, i hope he tries on Selyse) and he will slay the dead as they threaten the realms of man.

Time for my CRACKPOT THEORY.

Not really a theory, so much as I just want the Others to get across the narrow sea and wreak some have on that spoiled rotten continent of Essos.

Agreed, minus Braavos. Legend has it that Syrio Florel has killed 17 White Walkers.

[Lionofwar87]

David C. Simmons, on 06 February 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

Agreed, minus Braavos. Legend has it that Syrio Florel has killed 17 White Walkers.

With a wooden sword :-D

[m_k]

Jon's Nissa nissa will be his sacrifice of the iron throne after learning he is a targ.