123 replies to this topic

[Landis]

I did read your post, Morky_Pep; and after reading the entire thread, my contribution felt on topic, given the way this subject has evolved. I`m not saying that the White Walkers are bad, or that Jon becoming one would make him an antagonist. There is room for that to happen, but as I have said already, I agree with your idea of the WW not being baddies, but rather good through a differnet lens, like the overwhelming majority of characters in this series.

Having said that, if Jon ended up a bad guy, I would be farking stoked. XD

[The Blood Eyed Crow]

Here's my crackpot idea. Stannis Baratheon is the Great Other. Melisandre constantly reminds us that the flames are never wrong only those who interpret them. She is adamant that Stannis is Azor reborn, but perhaps in her blind belief she has received the message backwards. Stannis is the Other's sort of promised prince. She sees Bran, the old Gods, and the Children of the Forest in the flames as enemies because they are on the good side. It was said Stannis would "Break before he would bend" so does that mean he would become King at any cost, even humanity?

I believe that Shireen and her Fool are agents of the Others as one is partially dead from disease and the other died once in the sea before washing ashore. They just don't realize it yet.

[The Blood Eyed Crow]

As far as Jon Snow joining the Others or becoming a leader of the Others...hmmm. Anything's possible. After growing up a stranger in your own home, living while your family is brutally destroyed, and then being attacked by your own "brothers" is enough to turn anyone sour. One thing is for sure, Jon more than any other character is put in the position of making singular life changing choices. It would not suprise me if Jon will again have to make the choice between joining light or joining darkness. In fact I think all the remaining Stark children, including Jon Snow will come to a point where they must choose which road to take. All of them are suffering tumultuous changes in identity, even little Rickon who is turning feral. I don't think all of them will be on the side of good by the end of the series.

[Symon Silvertongue]

Perhaps Jon will not need help from Mel. He calls for Ghost, so I bet he would sense it and come at lightning speed, and may even rip out a throat or two.

If he does need resurrection Mel is only 100 ft away. If so I would expect them to become a lot closer... Also, Jon is our only permanent POV at the wall, since Sam will not return for quite a while. And the wall will gain importance in the last two books.

[Marv]

I guess the conflict is rather between fire (Dragons, Ashaii, Rh'lor..) and Ice (white walker, north of the  wall, the old gods) .
Therefore, there might be a chance that humanty is just a pawn in this larger conflict of super human fractions.
Of course in turn both fractions are somewhat using humans to achieve their goals. Which leaves the option of a major character joining them for some reason.

In any way, I think that GRRM isn't through with Jon Snow yet. But I do not think it is because he is located at the wall. There is still too much promise and too few development to the character, yet.

I would rather believe that taking him out (at least for some) will be a major factor helping the WW coming beyond the wall.
If the WW can be stopped by the wall being held by the remaining 500 men of the NW, why was the NW a much stronger and larger organisation in the past.

No, the defense of the wall could have worked out if Stannis, NW (lead by Jon) and the Freefolk joined forces. But this is now very unlikely.

If Jon is really dead, one has to ask the question what was his part in the story. And his sole remarkable achievement is letting some Freefolk through the wall.
If the Freefolk keeps defending the wall, this might be a large enough role.
On the other hand, some of them might be agents of the WW and then his role was even to help the WW to overcome the wall.

In any way, I cannot see how the wall will hold the WW for another two books.

Edited by Marv, 27 February 2012 - 07:29 AM.

[Lord Bear Mormont]

Interesting posts and some cool theories. Can't wait to see how it plays out.

[Marv]

Me too.

Unfortunately, GRRM seems to be working himself into an early grave (cf. post in his "not a BLOG") with everything else but writing.
So, I am rather worried about his health and if he will tell us the conclusion, before he will be swallowed by his own popularity.

[Bear Grylls of Skagos]

Jon is either the Night's King or the Prince who was promised. If your crackpot is true, he will end up being the Night's King.

[Lady Octarina]

The Blood Eyed Crow, on 27 February 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

Here's my crackpot idea. Stannis Baratheon is the Great Other. Melisandre constantly reminds us that the flames are never wrong only those who interpret them. She is adamant that Stannis is Azor reborn, but perhaps in her blind belief she has received the message backwards. Stannis is the Other's sort of promised prince. She sees Bran, the old Gods, and the Children of the Forest in the flames as enemies because they are on the good side. It was said Stannis would "Break before he would bend" so does that mean he would become King at any cost, even humanity?

I believe that Shireen and her Fool are agents of the Others as one is partially dead from disease and the other died once in the sea before washing ashore. They just don't realize it yet.

That's an interesting idea I had never considered! You gained me on the "break before he bends" - but, of course, the characters could be wrong in the way they interpret his behavior and general personality. Or he could change. Anyway, I prefer to think that Melisandre kept seeing Stannis on her flames because it was through him that she would reach AA (Jon), she refused to understand it that way. ^.~

[Lord Bear Mormont]

How old is Bran and Rickon by now?

[MushRoss]

The Blood Eyed Crow, on 27 February 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

Here's my crackpot idea. Stannis Baratheon is the Great Other. Melisandre constantly reminds us that the flames are never wrong only those who interpret them. She is adamant that Stannis is Azor reborn, but perhaps in her blind belief she has received the message backwards. Stannis is the Other's sort of promised prince. She sees Bran, the old Gods, and the Children of the Forest in the flames as enemies because they are on the good side. It was said Stannis would "Break before he would bend" so does that mean he would become King at any cost, even humanity?

I believe that Shireen and her Fool are agents of the Others as one is partially dead from disease and the other died once in the sea before washing ashore. They just don't realize it yet.

Stannis can be one of the Great Other's "champions",but saying that he is the Great Other himself while there's no Rh'llor on earth would be precipitated...

[Lady Octarina]

Lord Bear Mormont, on 01 March 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

How old is Bran and Rickon by now?

Nine and five, I think.

[Euphail]

Lady Octarina, on 01 March 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

Nine and five, I think.

Older I think,  Bran continually thinks of being "almost a man grown" throughout ADWD, so that puts him around 12?

[MushRoss]

Euphail, on 01 March 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

Older I think,  Bran continually thinks of being "almost a man grown" throughout ADWD, so that puts him around 12?

He thinks he's almost a man grown since aGoT...

[Lady Octarina]

Euphail, on 01 March 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

Older I think,  Bran continually thinks of being "almost a man grown" throughout ADWD, so that puts him around 12?

MushRoss, on 01 March 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

He thinks he's almost a man grown since aGoT...

That's what I was going to say. It's like when you tell a child that he's grown so much since the last time you saw him that he's now a man

Because I was under the impression the Stark kids were, by the beginning of AGoT: 14 (Jon and Robb), 11 (Sansa), 9 (Arya), 7 (Bran) and 3 (Rickon), non? And since about two years have passed in the books...

[Black Crow]

Some interesting ideas here. Can I refer you to the Heresy threads on the ADwD forum where the identity of the Others, including the White Walkers/Rangers, and the significance of the Starks is being very extensively debated - with reference to the Mabinogion as well as Geoffrey of Monmouth and other sources.

Jon still has a lot of mileage in him yet, but through the power of the Old Gods, not as Mel's pet.

If R+L=J as most believe, then Jon is the Ice Dragon

- or to make it clearer; if Rhaegar Targaryen + Lyanna Stark = Jon Snow, that equation can be expressed as: (Targaryen=Dragon) + (Stark=Winter) = Ice Dragon

[Val the Wildling Princess]

I've said it on another threads, I'd love for the story to go this way. I think that the Others and the Starks are,in  some way, related and after the end of ADWD, I'm hoping for Jon to warg into Ghost, go beyond the Wall and get in contact with the Others (or Bran and BR). Since I also think that the Others are not just pure evil, this would be a nice twist for the story and doesn't necessarily make Jon evil at all.

Edited by Val the Wildling Princess, 03 March 2012 - 08:52 AM.

[Lord Bear Mormont]

Jon has been quite accomodating to the Wildlings especially with living south of the wall. How are they going to react to the Night Watch for stabbing someone that has been true to them?

[Lady Octarina]

Black Crow, on 03 March 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

Some interesting ideas here. Can I refer you to the Heresy threads on the ADwD forum where the identity of the Others, including the White Walkers/Rangers, and the significance of the Starks is being very extensively debated - with reference to the Mabinogion as well as Geoffrey of Monmouth and other sources.

Jon still has a lot of mileage in him yet, but through the power of the Old Gods, not as Mel's pet.

If R+L=J as most believe, then Jon is the Ice Dragon

- or to make it clearer; if Rhaegar Targaryen + Lyanna Stark = Jon Snow, that equation can be expressed as: (Targaryen=Dragon) + (Stark=Winter) = Ice Dragon

And if in the other story by Martin an ice dragon defeats three fire dragons...

[Black Crow]

Exactly... tickets going on sale soon.