21 replies to this topic

[unJon]

Ok, I've just finished the first 3 Culture books: Consider Phlebas, Player of Games and Use of Weapons. They were hit or miss for me. Use of Weapons was great. I loved the story. I saw the twist coming from about halfway through the book, but the emotional impact was still there when it happened. It felt deep. It felt like a good puzzle.

Player of games; I liked the the idea, but it was a bit boring. The stakes never seemed that real.

Consider Phlebas was just meh for me. Poignant ending, but didn't really relate to anyone.

My overall peeve is the conceit that 'humanoids' with the ability to cross-breed independently evolved on so many different worlds. It kills my suspension of disbelief, and in the first three novels at least, there isn't any explanation for why that would be true. In Use of Weapons, Banks addresses it with some weirdness of the Galaxy's food talking back to it, but I do not get what that means. At all.

Anyway, given the above, do people think it is worth reading on? Is Use of Weapons the high point? Excession sounds interesting, but not available on Kindle. It takes a lot for me to actually buy a non Kindle book these days.

Edited by unJon, 03 February 2012 - 11:34 PM.

[aschwiig]

To me at least both Use of Weapons and Excession are the high points*, although they're very different. Excession is wider in scope and gives prominence to the dealings of ship minds and other AI's. I love that stuff, but I've the impression that it's not to everyones taste.

You could seek out Banks' notes on the Culture, which you should be able to find somewhere online. They cover a lot of the background material for the series, bit I can't recall if he is explicit on the stuff you're asking for.

*also, the non-culture Feersum Endjinn

[Luzifer's right hand]

The Culture humanoids have extensive genetic modifications from what I remember and the ability to change their body-structure with relative ease(although not as fast as Changers).
Fitting genitals are probably the easiest part.
It would be a spoiler to say more but Culture humans can change in more extreme ways if they want to.

[Datepalm]

I think Look to Windwards is definitely worth a read - almost as good as UoW. The other one that i've read is Surface Detail and that was pretty good too, though not LtW/UoW levels.

[sciborg2]

Matter is pretty good. I have to admit I read these books for the idea-porn, but Excession was good in character as well IIRC.

Player of Games was pure win - exciting, humorous, climatic. You feel like you get the payoff you need if not the one you deserve.

I need to get to Use of Weapons.

ETA: Surface Detail and its ideas on the "afterlife" was very interesting, sadly I stopped about 200 pages or so from the end and have yet to start again. Just waned in interest.

Edited by sciborg2, 04 February 2012 - 03:36 AM.

[Brady]

aschwiig, on 04 February 2012 - 03:03 AM, said:

You could seek out Banks' notes on the Culture, which you should be able to find somewhere online. They cover a lot of the background material for the series, bit I can't recall if he is explicit on the stuff you're asking for.

In a nice coincidence I just found this myself, here.

I've only read Use of Weapons and Complicity (non-Culture) and really liked both of them, but all the recent talk about it here on the board got me interested in reading all the Culture books in order, and I'm about halfway through Consider Phlebas right now. I think Banks is a great ideas guy (he really sells the idea of a vast galaxy filled with billions of different species and civlisations in a way that very few other sci-fi works manage), and he's also has nice prose and is clearly an intelligent guy. I think he struggles a little writing action scenes though (I keep getting bogged down in Consider Phlebas whenever a long action sequence kicks in)

Edited by Brady, 04 February 2012 - 06:48 AM.

[MinDonner]

Consider Phlebas is one of the weaker Culture novels IMO, very disjointed. Though not as dull as Inversions, which barely even counts as part of the Culture sequence. Actually some of my favourite Banks sci-fi is the non-Culture stuff, particularly Against A Dark Background and Feersum Endjinn.

[Horza]

Consider Phlebas is flawed but certain aspects of my user profile would appear to indicate it holds a special place in my heart. Player of Games is somewhat better and Use of Weapons is clearly the masterpiece of MBank's early output. Min's distaste for Inversions is indicative of moral turpitude of the highest order, the weakest Culture book by far is Excession.

[williamjm]

unJon, on 03 February 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

My overall peeve is the conceit that 'humanoids' with the ability to cross-breed independently evolved on so many different worlds. It kills my suspension of disbelief, and in the first three novels at least, there isn't any explanation for why that would be true.

I think the ability to cross-breed with each other was due to genetic modifications being done to allow it. However, I do agree it's a bit implausible that there are so many species out there who are so similar to humans (especially when humans themselves aren't part of the Culture).

Quote

Anyway, given the above, do people think it is worth reading on? Is Use of Weapons the high point? Excession sounds interesting, but not available on Kindle. It takes a lot for me to actually buy a non Kindle book these days.

I think UoW was my favourite Culture book, like you I didn't think Consider Phlebas was all that great, but unlike you I did like Player of Games. I'd say they're all worth reading, but they do vary in quality. Unlike a conventional series they're all quite different books to each other (although there are some common themes), so it's difficult to predict which others you would like based on your reactions to the first three. For example, out of the next two books (in publication order) Excession is space opera that is full of SF ideas and focuses more on the spaceships and A.I. members of the Culture with the humans being sidelined a bit but Inversions is a complete contrast, being set entirely on one pre-Industrial planet with no spaceships or drones and no explicit mention of the Culture (although it's fairly clear a couple of characters originally came from there). Out of the other books, I'd say Surface Detail is the one that's most like UoW, although it's not quite as great and it is a bit less focused - it does take a lot of time until the plot threads come together so I understand why some people have struggled with it.

ETA-

Quote

Consider Phlebas is flawed but certain aspects of my user profile would appear to indicate it holds a special place in my heart. Player of Games is somewhat better and Use of Weapons is clearly the masterpiece of MBank's early output. Min's distaste for Inversions is indicative of moral turpitude of the highest order, the weakest Culture book by far is Excession..

I have noticed there's no consensus on which Banks books are best or worst, there are even people who really don't like Use of Weapons but like some of the other books.

Edited by williamjm, 04 February 2012 - 08:05 AM.

[Horza]

If Goodreads is anything to go by UoW and Player are held in pretty high esteem (4.12 each) compared to lowly Phlebas (3.78)

[dornish prince]

i've only read consider phlebas and use of weapons but i enjoyed both of them. i didn't see the ending of UoW coming and the second half of the book was much more enjoyable to me as i felt the first half was square peg/round hole...could be that i'm just to dumb to get some of it, though. i felt CP was much more direct if not quite so polished but horza was an awesome character, IMO.

i also love the ships and everything so i will probably read excession next if i don't choose to read player of games.

[MinDonner]

Don't listen to Horza. Excession is a great book.

[aschwiig]

MinDonner, on 04 February 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Don't listen to Horza. Excession is a great book.

Indeed, and so is Inverions.

[unJon]

Thanks, everyone. I'm going to give Feersum Endjinn a try and go from there. Excession does sound like my cup of tea, so I'll try it once it comes to Kindle.

[Luzifer's right hand]

I reread Surface Detail a short time ago.

Spoiler

I reread Use of Weapos shortly before because of a certain character that shows up in Surface Detail. However I noticed during the reread that "Vatueil" is an anagram of "Livueta". The "secret" was hidden in plain sight right from the beginning.

Edited by Luzifer's right hand, 15 February 2012 - 12:47 PM.

[Nukelavee]

The only issue with feersum is getting used to the main character's, umm, spelling.

It's like puzzling out Geordie in trainspotting.

[JayDubya]

I really liked Excession, it's probably my favorite.

In order:

• Excession
  
• Matter
  
• Look To Windward
  
• Surface Detail
  
• Consider Phlebas
  
• Player of Games
  
• Use of Weapons

A lot of people love Player of Games, it didn't really do a lot for me. Not enough at stake, I suppose.

I think Use of Weapons is an interesting book - it's not bad by any means - but the structure/plot didn't work well for me.

Like some of the others, I enjoy these books for the sheer assault of ideas. Banks is incredibly inventive.

[Nukelavee]

I loved Excession, right from the start. I love the Mind/Drone/AI stuff.

Matter was one I had to take some time to appreciate the ending.

Player? I really enjoyed it, likely because of my experience in working on game design. I mean, I loved the games in the book, and trying to flesh them out in my head.

[redriver]

Love them all and a non-Culture novel called the Algebraeist is pretty good too.

I didn't foresee the twist in Use of Weapons and got quite a visceral shock when I read it.

[williamjm]

Quote

Love them all and a non-Culture novel called the Algebraeist is pretty good too.

The Algebraist is the only one of Banks' Science Fiction novels I haven't read yet. I've got the impression it's not generally regarded as being among his best novels, but I'll probably read it some day.

Edited by williamjm, 16 February 2012 - 02:22 PM.