417 replies to this topic

[MaryaStone]

Sorry, wrong thread!

Edited by MaryaStone, 11 February 2012 - 05:30 PM.

[lilenadheas]

Aside from a rabid Ned/Cat obsession, I am not a big shipper in this series. Couldn't get my get around San/San (he is a horrible person with some redeeming features, it does not signify a heart of gold that he decides at the last minute not to rape her, nor do his few acts of kindness merit a happily-ever-after with Sansa).

However, my rather condescending judgement of San/San shippers took a SEVERE beating by self knowledge, and I was abashed and horrified when I realized that I was disappointed when Littlefinger announced that he was going to marry Sansa off. What kind of sick masochist finds the Littlefinger/sansa story erotic?!   I am disturbed....

Now, I want Sansa to regain the North and return it to greatness without a husband. Is it so wrong/naive to hope that Sansa will turn out to be the knight of her own dreams? hmm... cringing as I write that, but oh well.

[lostinwesteros]

So many good posts --

Jon, as TPTWP, must have a magnificent match, but I just don't like the idea of Jon and Dany together.  Can't go with Jon/Arya, either -  yuk - they'll always be siblings, whatever the blood relationship turns out to be.  Jon and Val would be nice, but I think the events of the next two books would have to radically shift the 'foundation'/social structure of Westeros  before Val could be his queen.  Who for Jon?  Surely not a Martell?  Please not Robb's Jeyne.  Isn't there a Princess That was Promised somewhere out there?

I love the relationship that began between Jaime and Brienne and the way it has progressed, from "wench" and "kingslayer".  Don't know if she's really taking him to UnCat, but somehow I don't think so.  I'd like whatever is between them to fully develop, but I fear, as someone has mentioned, that Jaime may not make it till the end of the series.  I'd still like to see Jaime progress far enough to love Brienne, the exact opposite of Cersei's "beauty" [talk about skin deep], and the exact opposite of her 'character' [as in 'intrinsic integrity'] as well.  

I've got a soft spot for San-San, absolutely can not help it.  But there'd have to be some pretty basic and solid changes for that to work.  But . . . it's within the realm of possibility, I think [and hope].  

Arya and -- Gendry, if anyone.  And I hope that does work out - it sure was begun in the story line as an endearing [at the risk of being sappy] and very real thing.  I think that in the next book Arya will free herself from the FM, dig up Needle.  She and Tyrion get my vote for the most resourceful characters in the series, so she'll definitely figure out how to get back, and I SO want she and Jon to meet again, know that the other is living.

[A Free Shadow]

If Euron would have a chance to meet Lysa... He wants to fly and she dared to try it.

[Dark Rider]

I hate to say it, but I think that Jamie and Brienne will be a tragic romance. I think Jamie goes down in a selfless act for Brienne so he can die the knight he's always wanted to be and probably would have been if it hadn't been for his family.

I'd like to see Dany wake up and stop being a silly teen girl so she can recognize that Jorah Mormont would always love her and always be there for her in a way that nobody else would.  Right now she's just a typical teen girl too driven by lust and not enough by her head.

I'd like to see Sansa actually get together with Tyrion.  She's had this idea in her head that the value of a man is in his "looks" alone and frankly her and Tyrion's marriage would b what is necessary to stitch the wound in the realm between Lannisters and Starks who are still the families in the best position to rule their respective lands.

Like to see Bran and Meera.

Whatever happens George has to get Davos back to his family.  Don't kill him off George let the one family man left in this world make it back to his wife and kids.

[Dark Rider]

Double post. oops.

Edited by Dark Rider, 26 February 2012 - 02:57 PM.

[Lady Blackfyre]

I really don't get this Bran and Meera pairing. IIRC, Bran is a 10-year-old kid, and Meera is pushing 17...?

[ElizaMartell]

Dark Rider, on 26 February 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

I'd like to see Sansa actually get together with Tyrion.  She's had this idea in her head that the value of a man is in his "looks" alone and frankly her and Tyrion's marriage would b what is necessary to stitch the wound in the realm between Lannisters and Starks who are still the families in the best position to rule their respective lands.

Oh yes. Tyrion gets a trophy wife and still admires beautiful women but Sansa has to 'grow up' and love nice guy Tyrion to heal a rift he himself said could never be mended. Riiight.

Edited by ElizaMartell, 26 February 2012 - 03:58 PM.

[Dark Rider]

ElizaMartell, on 26 February 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

Oh yes. Tyrion gets a trophy wife and sitll admires beautiful women but Sansa has to 'grow up' and love nice guy Tyrion to heal a rift he himself said could never be mended. Riiight.

Well, when you put it like that....

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Dark Rider, on 26 February 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

I'd like to see Dany wake up and stop being a silly teen girl so she can recognize that Jorah Mormont would always love her and always be there for her in a way that nobody else would.  Right now she's just a typical teen girl too driven by lust and not enough by her head.

I'd like to see Sansa actually get together with Tyrion.  She's had this idea in her head that the value of a man is in his "looks" alone and frankly her and Tyrion's marriage would b what is necessary to stitch the wound in the realm between Lannisters and Starks who are still the families in the best position to rule their respective lands.

I disagree, it's not all about who the smart choice is.  Just because Jorah makes sense in Dany's (or the readers) head doesn't mean it makes sense in her heart.  That said, you're right about her teenage lust (Darrio), the head should have some say in the matter.

With Sansa, i don't think its all about looks, she does seem to have some attraction to the hound, although the whole situation regarding Sansa's suitors is a little creepy

Edited by Ser Pollo Loco, 26 February 2012 - 04:18 PM.

[Rapsie]

Lady Blackfyre, on 26 February 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

I really don't get this Bran and Meera pairing. IIRC, Bran is a 10-year-old kid, and Meera is pushing 17...?

I think it's the lack of the 5 year gap. Bran would have been 15 and it wouldn't have been so unrealistic.

Ser Pollo Loco, on 26 February 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

With Sansa, i don't think its all about looks, she does seem to have some attraction to the hound, although the whole situation regarding Sansa's suitors is a little creepy

It is creepy. GRRM should have made her 14/15 in the first book. It then would not have been half so bad.

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

Tyrion and Tysha

/thread

[Dark Rider]

Yeah, for a 12 or 13 year old girl Sansa pretty much only attracts men well into their late 20's or 30's. Talking about guys twice her age.

[Woman of War]

I miss love stories adult women can relate to, not the story of a child  character where readers try to interpret something into the barest hints out of sheer despair because no adult strong female character with a kind of "romantic" story is there for adult identification. There is maybe Brienne with her touching clearsightedness and emotional resilience, there is Cersei, I can relate to her but not every woman can, there is Daenerys who has by now grown out of being treated as child character but I think it is simply stupid to burden Arya's storyline with "romantic" aspects.
Only am I not reading the wrong books if I feel the need to browse the pages for small hints and bites of things "readers want to read"? Does every book need its archetypical fairytale lovestory? Here I expect the unconventional! Am I not caring more for compeling character descriptions, personalities with flaws, passions and secrets where love may or may not happen and can be part of a personal tragedy? I want characters who have a strong story of their own and who are not simply there to be shipped around in order to fulfill the reader's need for romantics.

[Rapsie]

Woman of War, on 26 February 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

I miss love stories adult women can relate to, not the story of a child  character where readers try to interpret something into the barest hints out of sheer despair because no adult strong female character with a kind of "romantic" story is there for adult identification. There is maybe Brienne with her touching clearsightedness and emotional resilience, there is Cersei, I can relate to her but not every woman can, there is Daenerys who has by now grown out of being treated as child character but I think it is simply stupid to burden Arya's storyline with "romantic" aspects.
Only am I not reading the wrong books if I feel the need to browse the pages for small hints and bites of things "readers want to read"? Does every book need its archetypical fairytale lovestory? Here I expect the unconventional! Am I not caring more for compeling character descriptions, personalities with flaws, passions and secrets where love may or may not happen and can be part of a personal tragedy? I want characters who have a strong story of their own and who are not simply there to be shipped around in order to fulfill the reader's need for romantics.

Romance is part of life. These books are a story about people's lives. They are also not cliche free (yes Jon, Dany and Tyrion I am looking at you). We have had the nice romance with Sam and Gilly, and it would be interesting to see if they ever meet again etc. Had it not been for the fact it's already happened and if we hadn't had AFFC before ADWD, then perhaps there would have been a lot of people curious as to where Sam and Gilly's relationship is going. Similarly with Bran and Meera: his age makes it silly to be honest. Dany is only 15! She's still a young girl too. She is written as if she is older....something several of the characters seem to be.

Wondering about the romance potential is no different to wondering if Aegon is fake, or if and how Tommen and Mrycella will die, or looking forward to the battles of Meereen and Winterfell and trying to work out which side has a better chance.

[Trinuviel]

Quote

Dany is only 15! She's still a young girl too. She is written as if she is older....something several of the characters seem to be.

Martin really doesn't write children well. The ages of the Stark children is IMO a big mistake on his part because it requires a huge suspension of disbelief.

[Kirah]

This is my first post, so hi everyone. I just want to say that I agree with MaryaStone about Sansa & Sandor pairing. Readers may or may not like it, but it IS in the text. At least in the first two books, I'm on last pages of ACOK and I can totally see it, so apparently GRRM himself likes it enough. There are tons of hints, for now this is the closest thing to THE ROMANCE of ASOIAF.
Not that I expect them to have a happy end. Well Sandor's heroic death while saving Sansa's life may count as a happy ending for GRRM.

As for age difference - remember this is medievalish (does such word exists? english isn't my first language) society AND fantasy fiction. But if you want real life experience - my husband is 14 years older than me, trust me once Sansa turns 19 or 20 it won't matter at all.

[bgona]

Truth the age of the Stark is the real mistake. When I read any children POV they are kind of unbelievable. When I put them a few years more it is as: well maybe the things around are incredible but at least now they sound a little more realistic.


Ah!!! I don´t see romance between Sansa and Tyrion. If they still married they could finally love each other, but never as Romance it is represented.

[Woman of War]

Rapsie, on 26 February 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

Romance is part of life. These books are a story about people's lives. They are also not cliche free (yes Jon, Dany and Tyrion I am looking at you). We have had the nice romance with Sam and Gilly, and it would be interesting to see if they ever meet again etc. Had it not been for the fact it's already happened and if we hadn't had AFFC before ADWD, then perhaps there would have been a lot of people curious as to where Sam and Gilly's relationship is going. Similarly with Bran and Meera: his age makes it silly to be honest. Dany is only 15! She's still a young girl too. She is written as if she is older....something several of the characters seem to be.

Wondering about the romance potential is no different to wondering if Aegon is fake, or if and how Tommen and Mrycella will die, or looking forward to the battles of Meereen and Winterfell and trying to work out which side has a better chance.

Sam and Gilly are certainly brushing clichés in the wrong direction, that's what I like in it. This  is what Martin does in fact: He doesn't try to write cliché free but uses clichés, wraps ans unwraps them, chops and reconstructs them. Every character is cliché plus much more or sometimes less extra.
Is Dany truly 15 only? Hasn't more time passed than two years since the beginning of GOT? Well, doesn't matter because she is actively making choices whom to love and to have sex with, she doesn't tolerate to be used, at least not more than she is consciously able to avoid, so I can relate to her in a way, she isn't a victim anymore. I can pity a victim but never see anything erotic in his or her story because pity is death to desire.
Wondering about romance is perfectly ok, I even would want  more romance drama for Cersei, THAT would be hugely surprising, would seem so out of character, would catch that calculating woman totally unawares. Imo Jaime and Cersei are the greatest and most dramatic love story in the books, dark and doomed. And Tyrion and Tysha are the saddest.
But I am wondering about the romance potential with a certain detachment, like  about Aegon's true identity. The characters are described as living, breathing people who have hot or dark sex (I love well written sex scenes) and may even fall in love but I want them to be complete personalities who have a purpose in a storyline, not projection screens for infatuation. They are not me, I feel no need to justify their lovelife and it has nothing to to with myself. And, first of all, speculation about future pairings is entertaining but pointless because Martin will decide it.
This doesn't mean that my romantic self isn't secretly and against all odds hoping for a nice ending given to my favorite protagonists, may there be a "romantic" part in it or not. But it is the good story that counts.

[RebeccaSigyn]

I'm with LifeRuiner I feel really bad for Loras too but I'm still reading ACOK so I don't know enough about who survives to try to pair him with someone.