Romance in ASoIaF

[whitters23]

Whitter23, welcome to the forum! :grouphug:

I'm sorry to sink your ship but Martin has said that though Arya and Gendry's paths may cross briefly, they are not going to share a future.

Thank you!

It seems weird to me that he would give such a final answer to this given that he has been building towards something romantic with them. I could see him giving this answer to a crack ship or something, sort of putting an end to it before it began... but I can't see it with these two. OR Sandor/Sansa. Or Jaime/Brienne. It seems weird that he would give away an ending like that. Perhaps they do meet up again and there is something there between them but it doesn't work out. Perhaps one of them does die!

So if this is the case... I'm really stumped as to who would be the best candidate for a happy ending. Maybe Sansa... but I can't think of who would end up giving that to her. Perhaps Harry the Heir?

Also, Gendry accepted Arya for who she was but he doesn't have to be the only one. Edric Dayne knew what she was like although she didn't tell him that she kills people and he liked her. When she's in Braavos the men she's around love her and they teach her dirty songs and weapon tricks etc.

I never got on the Edric Dayne bandwagon. I got the impression that he didn't know how to take her. But if she did settle down with someone though I would prefer it was someone that was already introduced. Otherwise it wouldn't be believable that she would want to settle down at all.

[Kittykatknits]

Thank you!

So if this is the case... I'm really stumped as to who would be the best candidate for a happy ending. Maybe Sansa... but I can't think of who would end up giving that to her. Perhaps Harry the Heir?

Martin has already said that the ending is going to be bittersweet. It's possible that he will surprise me, but I don't think we are going to see a happy ending for any character in the series. So, I don't think anyone that we've been talking about are going to get married and settled down to a live of marital bliss with a bunch of babies.

So, if we take the word bittersweet and look at that from a romance perspective, then I can foresee something like short, doomed romance before Sandor or Jaime go off to die. Or, in the case of Arya and Gendry, if they meet again, she may have her first kiss. But, that's about it.

Would I like something more? Oh, absolutely. Especially between SanSan. :)

I don't think we are going to get any sort of epilogue to tell us how everyone is ten years later either. I have a strong feeling that Martin has an ending in mind and that will be it. It's possible I'm being overly cynical and someone else sees it differently but Martin has taught me not to expect much so that I'm not disappointed.

[ARYa_Nym]

I never got on the Edric Dayne bandwagon. I got the impression that he didn't know how to take her. But if she did settle down with someone though I would prefer it was someone that was already introduced. Otherwise it wouldn't be believable that she would want to settle down at all.

Edric didn't seem to mind. I don't think Gendry was any better. She completely dominated him and I got the impression that she literally thought that he was stupid because she said that it looked like it hurt for him to think.

I think at best she would be in an exclusive relationship with someone or she would be a serial monogamist.

Gendry already found a girl where they act like a married couple though and Arya is currently either upset with Gendry or is already starting to forget him (she doesn't think about him in ADWD).

Edit: I think with a 5 year gap chances are she would have hooked up with one of them eventually:

"

"...the Ragman’s Harbor, a poorer, rougher, dirtier port than the Purple.Cat liked it best of any place in Braavos. She liked the noise and the strange smells, and seeing what ships had come in on the evening tide and what ships had departed. She liked the sailors too.;.

the boisterous Tyroshi with their booming voices and dyed whiskers; the fair-haired Lyseni, always trying to niggle down her prices; the squat, hairy sailors from the Port of Ibben, growling curses in low, raspy

voices. Her favorites were the Summer Islanders, with their skins as smooth and dark as teak. And sometimes there were Westerosi too, oarsmen and sailors off carracks out of Oldtown, trading galleys out of Duskendale, King’s Landing, and Gulltown, big-bellied wine cogs from the Arbor. "

"

[Lady of Shalott]

Definitely Sansa/Sandor and Jaime/Brienne, also Davos/his wife. Loras/someone would be nice. I don't really care much for conventional "romantic" relationships, but Sansa/Petyr makes me cringe. (Not because of his age, but because he was sexually attracted to her mother and she's just a placeholder with the right hair color. :ack: ) I'll throw the book out of the window if GRRM even hints at Dany/Jon. Dany has a sh!t taste in men anyway.

[Lyanna Stark]

Martin has already said that the ending is going to be bittersweet. It's possible that he will surprise me, but I don't think we are going to see a happy ending for any character in the series. So, I don't think anyone that we've been talking about are going to get married and settled down to a live of marital bliss with a bunch of babies.

Let me just say here that "bittersweet" does not mean "dismal" :) I think GRRM considers LOTR "bittersweet", and it is, because there is a great sense of loss and that what has been can never be recovered or really replaced. Yet it has a lot of resolutions all the same and even some (slightly dodgy) romance.

Even if one of the Stark children (probably Jon or Sansa) can manage to marry a spouse they love, it does not remove from the fact that what's already happened makes it so obvious things will never go back to as they once were. Too many people are dead and gone, too much violence and turmoil have taken place and too much innocence is gone forever.

Also, let's assume that say, Brienne and Jaime, Sansa and Sandor are alive at the end of the novels. Even so, imagining them having some sort of fairy tale romance seems really, really far fetched. There are just too many practical complications (like the fact that three of the involved are "kingslayers" or accused of kingslaying and two of them are kingsguard, plus one is accused of a massacre and mass rape), matters of social status (perhaps less so for Brienne and Jaime, but definitely so for Sandor and Sansa) not to mention that all the involved are pretty messed up individuals (even poor Sansa) at this point in time which will make any relationship a very bumpy ride at the best of times.

I am ever the optimist. If I want to read dismal endings, there is always Abercrombie. ;) Or bloody Bakker!

[Kittykatknits]

Let me just say here that "bittersweet" does not mean "dismal" :) I think GRRM considers LOTR "bittersweet", and it is, because there is a great sense of loss and that what has been can never be recovered or really replaced. Yet it has a lot of resolutions all the same and even some (slightly dodgy) romance.

Even if one of the Stark children (probably Jon or Sansa) can manage to marry a spouse they love, it does not remove from the fact that what's already happened makes it so obvious things will never go back to as they once were. Too many people are dead and gone, too much violence and turmoil have taken place and too much innocence is gone forever.

First paragraph gives me hope...

Also, let's assume that say, Brienne and Jaime, Sansa and Sandor are alive at the end of the novels. Even so, imagining them having some sort of fairy tale romance seems really, really far fetched. There are just too many practical complications (like the fact that three of the involved are "kingslayers" or accused of kingslaying and two of them are kingsguard, plus one is accused of a massacre and mass rape), matters of social status (perhaps less so for Brienne and Jaime, but definitely so for Sandor and Sansa) not to mention that all the involved are pretty messed up individuals (even poor Sansa) at this point in time which will make any relationship a very bumpy ride at the best of times.

I am ever the optimist. If I want to read dismal endings, there is always Abercrombie. ;) Or bloody Bakker!

...then I read the second paragraph.

I haven't read LotR since my teenage years which were, um a while ago so my memory is a bit hazy in some parts. But, I do remember the romance. But, I do agree, I think it matches very well with what Martin thinks of as bittersweet. I don't have any expectations that these relationship will have happy endings, let alone anything approaching a fairy tale ending, as I don't want to be disappointed. If they end up together, and that is a big if, I think you are absolutely correct about the bumpy ride. I just don't see it happening.

I do welcome encouraging thoughts such as yours though. They keep me from completely wallowing in despair. :)

Read some Abercrombie but on the advice of those who know me well, not much.

[Lyanna Stark]

First paragraph gives me hope...

...then I read the second paragraph.

I haven't read LotR since my teenage years which were, um a while ago so my memory is a bit hazy in some parts. But, I do remember the romance. But, I do agree, I think it matches very well with what Martin thinks of as bittersweet. I don't have any expectations that these relationship will have happy endings, let alone anything approaching a fairy tale ending, as I don't want to be disappointed. If they end up together, and that is a big if, I think you are absolutely correct about the bumpy ride. I just don't see it happening.

I do welcome encouraging thoughts such as yours though. They keep me from completely wallowing in despair. :)

Read some Abercrombie but on the advice of those who know me well, not much.

Regarding "bittersweet" and the LOTR comparison, I think the main thing you take away from the ending of LOTR is that even though Sauron is gone and the world of men saved, the elves are leaving Middle Earth forever and the world is a lesser place because of it. The sense of loss is profound. Loss of innocence, loss of culture, loss of friends and loved ones and loss of the greatness of the past. Sure, it's the dawn of a new era (The Fourth Age, or the Age of Men) but there really is this very strong feeling that the previous ages were more magical, more heroic, my mythical and in general that they contained something that can never be recovered.

This is reflected in the romance as well, if we're looking at Arwen - Aragorn, who work as the symbolic step away from elvendom and into the human domain, where Arwen makes the choice to become mortal (since she is of the line of Eärendil she can make this choice, albeit it is not an uncontroversial one) it's also an extremely stark choice, since she is forsaking her immortal life, her right to travel west to Valinor and join the Valar there, i.e. she is really forsaking her birthright and she knows it will mean forsaking any further interaction with her family and her people. Sure, there is a future to be built and she does not seem to regret it, but even so, it's an extremely bittersweet choice looking at what she's lost. I always disliked how little time is spent on Arwen Evenstar's choice in LOTR, since it's really a profound one and it resonances with the sense of loss and overall melancholy you get from the ending. I actually liked how they highlighted this in the movie, where Elrond tells her in pretty grim terms that she'll be alone and live on in grief and sorrow for generations after her husband is gone, until all her long days are utterly spent.

Now if Arwen and Aragorn represent the bittersweet part of romance and symbolises the loss of what was, with them both being the last of their long lines, Faramir and Eowyn get to symbolise, to a degree, hope for life moving forward. Both are only humans, and both transcend their limitations. Yet even here, both have experienced tragic loss and while there's is perhaps a union which reflects something newer and fresher (even in the mundane Age of Men, there can be hope for the future and worthy people to create that future) it only came about at a tremendous cost. Eowyn lost her father figure (Theoden) and Faramir his brother and his father, and these losses also launch them onto a bit of a suicidal path, with Eowyn attacking the Nazgul and Faramir heading out at his father's command trying to recapture Osgiliath; which ends with both of them at death's door.

Sam also creates a future for himself with Rosie Cotton, but even so, he becomes the mayor and can never return to the care free life of an undergardener again. This is more strongly emphasised when Frodo leaves for Valindor. Even if Sam likes his new life, the past can never be recaptured. And he still remains very tied to his past, due to having been a ring bearer himself, even if it was for only a short time.

So on the surface, LOTR has a pretty happy ending, but there are underlying facets of it that are really bittersweet, ranging from simple loss of loved ones, to the loss of innocence and then onto Arwen's more personal loss of her birthright, her heritage and her family.

It'd be interesting to look at/crackpot on paralells between LOTR romances and ASOIAF ones, since the Aragorn - Arwen could be said to paralell a future Jon/Dany, since A/A is the rejoining of Eärendil's line, through Elrond (Arwen - the elven line) and Elros (Aragorn - the human line) two lines, while Jon/Dany would rejoin the Targaryen lines. That said, Dany has no family, and no heritage to really forsake, for her it's almost the inverse. Sansa Stark has a larger possibility to going down the Arwen route with lots of forsaking of birthright and family in that case, but for her it may not have the same impact since she's already fed up with her claim.

[Winter's Knight]

Lyanna, continuing with Aargon/Arwen parallels, if we consider Jon/Dany, perhaps the role of Arwen will be taken up by Jon? Keeping in mind that he does not have any concrete way of proving his lineage, he is sure to be overshadowed if he were to wed the Dragon Queen? The parallel would require him to surrender his Stark heritage and whole heartedly embrace the Targaearayen bloodline. If you also consider theories that Dany will die in childbirth ( :bang: dear God please no), then he'd be the one left mourning all his days.

[Lummel]

Regarding "bittersweet" and the LOTR comparison, I think the main thing you take away from the ending of LOTR is that even though Sauron is gone and the world of men saved, the elves are leaving Middle Earth forever and the world is a lesser place because of it. The sense of loss is profound. Loss of innocence, loss of culture, loss of friends and loved ones and loss of the greatness of the past. Sure, it's the dawn of a new era (The Fourth Age, or the Age of Men) but there really is this very strong feeling that the previous ages were more magical, more heroic, my mythical and in general that they contained something that can never be recovered.

This is reflected in the romance as well, ...

Meh that was back in the 1940s when men were real men and gave birth through parthenogenesis while women were only allow to tred in the pages of LOTR to keep them out of "The Eagle and Child".

There's more bitter than sweet to the ending of the LOTR, it's a pyrrhic victory. If that is what we are to expect from the close of ASOIAF then a succesful looking romance is only likely to occur in the context of some heart breaking loss or sacrifice to the individuals involved.

Having said that I'd kept the ages of the characters in mind too. At the close of the story Dany and the stark children will all be comparatively young in years (although obviously wrung through a mangle of despair and horror, left ancient in experience and well versed in the depths of depression and loss). Seeing Arya married at 15/16 would be a bit of a curious ending in this day and age...

[Lyanna Stark]

Lyanna, continuing with Aargon/Arwen parallels, if we consider Jon/Dany, perhaps the role of Arwen will be taken up by Jon? Keeping in mind that he does not have any concrete way of proving his lineage, he is sure to be overshadowed if he were to wed the Dragon Queen? The parallel would require him to surrender his Stark heritage and whole heartedly embrace the Targaearayen bloodline. If you also consider theories that Dany will die in childbirth ( :bang: dear God please no), then he'd be the one left mourning all his days.

Yep, the thought struck me that Jon/Dany are in many ways a switcheroo of Arwen/Aragorn, since Aragorn's line is pretty set. He knows who he is, while Arwen has the choice. If Jon would indeed choose to go with his father's identity as a Targaryen, it could have a similar effect on him as Arwen's choice. And if he then has to go south, he would also be experiencing a very real loss of his family (both the Stark one and his adopted family, his "brothers" at the Night Watch) and of his cultural heritage.

[Lyanna Stark]

Meh that was back in the 1940s when men were real men and gave birth through parthenogenesis while women were only allow to tred in the pages of LOTR to keep them out of "The Eagle and Child".

:lol:

There's more bitter than sweet to the ending of the LOTR, it's a pyrrhic victory. If that is what we are to expect from the close of ASOIAF then a succesful looking romance is only likely to occur in the context of some heart breaking loss or sacrifice to the individuals involved.

Having said that I'd kept the ages of the characters in mind too. At the close of the story Dany and the stark children will all be comparatively young in years (although obviously wrung through a mangle of despair and horror, left ancient in experience and well versed in the depths of depression and loss). Seeing Arya married at 15/16 would be a bit of a curious ending in this day and age...

Awwh, I would not say it's a pyrrhic victory, it's important enought, it just comes at a high cost. I do agree with you about the romance though, I think that's what we're looking at getting. Maybe we'll end the series with a bunch of Arwen Evenstars reflecting on the losses of the past "until all their long years of you life are utterly spent"? :)

I agree with you about the young ages, too, which have always been a bit dodgy, but perhaps the 5 year gap that was going to be will now just be written in, instead? (That said, I doubt Arya will be married by the end of the series, just a personal feeling.) It seems 16 is near the default age to marry girls off at and Arianne is put out that's she at the ancient age of 23 (!!!) remains unmarried.

[Winter's Knight]

Yep, the thought struck me that Jon/Dany are in many ways a switcheroo of Arwen/Aragorn, since Aragorn's line is pretty set. He knows who he is, while Arwen has the choice. If Jon would indeed choose to go with his father's identity as a Targaryen, it could have a similar effect on him as Arwen's choice. And if he then has to go south, he would also be experiencing a very real loss of his family (both the Stark one and his adopted family, his "brothers" at the Night Watch) and of his cultural heritage.

One could argue that he has already started on this path by refusing Winterfell and legitimisation?

[Winter's Knight]

Meh that was back in the 1940s when men were real men and gave birth through parthenogenesis while women were only allow to tred in the pages of LOTR to keep them out of "The Eagle and Child".

There's more bitter than sweet to the ending of the LOTR, it's a pyrrhic victory. If that is what we are to expect from the close of ASOIAF then a succesful looking romance is only likely to occur in the context of some heart breaking loss or sacrifice to the individuals involved.

Having said that I'd kept the ages of the characters in mind too. At the close of the story Dany and the stark children will all be comparatively young in years (although obviously wrung through a mangle of despair and horror, left ancient in experience and well versed in the depths of depression and loss). Seeing Arya married at 15/16 would be a bit of a curious ending in this day and age...

Winter lasts a long time though. If the next few books cover two to three years, I will not feel too :ack: about Sansa and Briene or Jon and Dany ending up together.

[Ice Turtle]

One could argue that he has already started on this path by refusing Winterfell and legitimisation?

Here I strongly disagree, he refused it because Stannis and Mel had no right to give it (it belonged to Sansa as far as he knew) and because forsaking his father's gods was part of the deal. The North would never accept him and what it would have mattered anyway when the Others could destroy it all.

[Lyanna Stark]

One could argue that he has already started on this path by refusing Winterfell and legitimisation?

Ah good point, yes it could be argued that he has. It's also been hinted at that the Starks in the crypts tell him he's not one of them, which he just takes as meaning he is a bastard, but as readers, we know it may be more due to his Targaryen heritage.

Also, for the people who need a refresher on Arwen's choice, here it is where Elrond puts it plainly to her.

Interestingly here Elrond even goes so far as to contrast her heritage and her family (and her love for her father, i.e. her family) with the future she wants to choose, and the tremendous cost it would involve to move forward into that (possible) future.

At one point, she says however regarding her choice when Aragorn says "You cannot give me this", "It is mine to give to whom I choose" so clearly Arwen is aware of the cost and the impact on her.

Regarding bittersweet romances, and to go on with the "Is Jon Arwen?" theme, this bit may be interesting:

But Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Then she said farewell to Eldarion, and to her daughters, and to all whom she had loved; and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lórien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn had also gone, and the land was silent.

In other words, it is strongly hinted that Arwen Undomiel eventually left to die of grief for her losses. ..."until Winter came".

So Winter's Knight, if your theory of Dany eventually dying in childbirth etc. does this then mean that Jon will eventually turn all Rhaegar on us, go all melancholy, go off somewhere (The Wall?) and die of a broken heart?

[Winter's Knight]

Here I strongly disagree, he refused it because Stannis and Mel had no right to give it (it belonged to Sansa as far as he knew) and because forsaking his father's gods was part of the deal. The North would never accept him and what it would have mattered anyway when the Others could destroy it all.

I was looking at it more as a part of a broader narrative that may involve him, in the future, moving even further away from his Northern heritage. Remember that one of the first things we see him do is deny that he is a Stark in AGoT.

[Lummel]

...Maybe we'll end the series with a bunch of Arwen Evenstars reflecting on the losses of the past "until all their long years of you life are utterly spent"? :)

I agree with you about the young ages, too, which have always been a bit dodgy, but perhaps the 5 year gap that was going to be will now just be written in, instead? (That said, I doubt Arya will be married by the end of the series, just a personal feeling.) It seems 16 is near the default age to marry girls off at and Arianne is put out that's she at the ancient age of 23 (!!!) remains unmarried.

Depressing. So the last few chapters are probably best not read on a dark and rain filled night as the decay of Autumn gives way to the unending bleakness of winter and the rest of your own natural life.

Well lets face it at 23 she is a spinster. No way will she ever be a grandmother by the age of thirty.

[Lummel]

I was looking at it more as a part of a broader narrative that may involve him, in the future, moving even further away from his Northern heritage. Remember that one of the first things we see him do is deny that he is a Stark in AGoT.

interesting although by embracing the nights watch he is pretty firmly aligned with northern heritage I would have said.

[Winter's Knight]

interesting although by embracing the nights watch he is pretty firmly aligned with northern heritage I would have said.

The Nightswatch has never made him comfortable though. Just like Winterfell never made him feel like he belonged.

[Lyanna Stark]

Depressing. So the last few chapters are probably best not read on a dark and rain filled night as the decay of Autumn gives way to the unending bleakness of winter and the rest of your own natural life.

Well lets face it at 23 she is a spinster. No way will she ever be a grandmother by the age of thirty.

I dunno, I'd say a lot of the bad stuff has already happened. For instance the Scouring of the Shire event has already happened with the sack of Winterfell. (Crackpot alert: Ayra and Sansa as Merry and Pippin? With Bran as Frodo and Rickon as Samwell??). The loss of innocence is a constant theme in ASOIAF more so than in LOTR, what with Jon Snow's constant "Kill the boy and let the man be born", Dany's "If I look back I am lost", Arya's hit list and Sansa's "In real life the monsters win".