68 replies to this topic

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Any idea what this means?

[Lummel]

Yes Alleras = Sarella

[ipsuel]

Someone posited once (not me, but I read it somewhere) something along these lines:

The Egyptian sphinx is half man, half lion. (Egyptian sphinxes are also traditionally male, not female). Ahem... half-man, half-lion? Recognize the connection? (Also even if you use the version with wings, one could argue the Targaryen angle for that same character). Half man + Half dragon + Half Lion = Tyrion.

I'd also read that the Egyptian sphinx had its nose cut off? Not really sure about that, though.

It does bear mentioning, however, that Egyptian sphinxes were thought to be benevolent--'guarding' temples and whatnot. Since we've seen them in the ASOIAF world used this way... it gives more credence to possible symbolism using the Egyptian sphinx, rather than the Greek or others.

[Serie]

about the nose thing, I think only one sphinx is missing a nose, the one at Giza, due to vandalism or something....

[ipsuel]

Gotcha... I'd read it somewhere but I guess I never followed up to see what it was about. Thanks!

[Sevumar]

 ipsuel, on 04 February 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

The Egyptian sphinx is half man, half lion. (Egyptian sphinxes are also traditionally male, not female). Ahem... half-man, half-lion? Recognize the connection? (Also even if you use the version with wings, one could argue the Targaryen angle for that same character). Half man + Half dragon + Half Lion = Tyrion.

We have references to two kinds of sphinxes in the books: the ones flanking the gates of the Citadel, described as having a human head, a lion's body and a hawk's wings.

The second kind is the Valyrian sphinx, described as a dragon's body with a human head, and found wherever Valyrian stonework is present -- on their roads and in the Red Keep, among other places.

It's unclear which the riddle phrase references, as only people who seem familiar with the sphinx's association with riddles are attendees or graduates of the Citadel. IIRC, Maester Aemon is the first in the story to utter this phrase, and there's good reason to believe he'd be familiar with both sphinxes. Unless we're missing something, I don't think we can assume he's aware of Alleras the Sphinx. When he says this phrase, he's delirious and he's thinking of dragons, so it seems likely that the phrase relates to dragons and perhaps prophecy in some way, but how?

[Stark@heart]

In the myth that I know the Sphinx is the one who poses the riddle, in this case, it is reversed. If Maester Aemon was referring to the dragon sphinx with the human head could it have something to do with how dragons are tamed? The human does the thinking, which would be the same as warging wouldn't it?

[ipsuel]

Lame as it is... I presumed he meant something along the lines of 3 vastly different entities needing to come together... so that the sum is far greater than the parts. (Pertaining to the 3 heads of the dragon... or to the dragons in a more generic sense). That is, the riddle is how/who needs to come together to form that perfect blend.

I know... it's weak and it's cliche... but that's how I always interpreted it.

[Carey Snow]

 Serie, on 04 February 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

about the nose thing, I think only one sphinx is missing a nose, the one at Giza, due to vandalism or something....

It was widely rumored that Napleon's troops shot the nose off with a cannon. This is disputed by historians though.

[Stark@heart]

I think I saw that on history channel. They did use it for target practice, firing muskets at it . They said the nose probably fell away but it is an interesting comparison to Tyrion. The half-man half-lion part. If only we knew where Maester Aemon came up with it. Is it part of a prophecy or something else?

[tze]

Valyrian sphinxes are basically animals and humans combined into one being. If you think about it, that's exactly what a skinchanger is: a human being, part of whom has become either one other animal or many animals. What's the riddle? Aemon spoke of this "riddle/riddler" phrase in conjunction with the AA/PTWP prophecy, along with the whole "dragon must have three heads" issue. Perhaps that's the riddle, and the sphinx is the answer? Dragons can only have a single rider, so a single dragon can't actually have three "heads". But the example of a sphinx tells us how a single dragon can have three heads: not by the existence of three individual dragons, but via the power of a human being who can literally "be" multiple animals---a skinchanger. That's how a dragon can have three heads---by those heads not all being "dragon" heads, but the "heads" coming from other creatures. And the power to be both human and multiple animals (like the sphinx), to be a dragon and have multiple "heads" in one creature, is a power we've only seen in skinchangers: a creature that can have three "heads", three minds in one, and like the sphinx, is necessarily part human and part animal(s).

[Stark@heart]

I think I'm following you but wouldn't that mean that dragon riders also had to be wargs? Dany hasn't been shown to have that ability. It seems to be only those with the blood of the First Men who can do that.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

He's talking about Alleras Oberon's daughter. She's already forege 3 links in a year and the dornishmen are wise. She'll have her part to play

[PatrickStormborn]

In the prologue of AFFC, Alleras says: "The dragon has three heads." He's asked if this is a riddle, and he says it isn't.

Maester Aemon then begins talking about glass candles (something the acolytes have been talking about). We already know that Marwyn has been watching Sam and Aemon through a glass candle, so it is possible that Aemon has been able to access some of Marwyn's thoughts. If this is right, then he's saying that what Alleras says is not the riddle; his identity is the riddle.

[just an Other]

I agree with tze, Martin seems to be using the word sphnix to describe an amalgam of various animals with a human head. To me this alludes directly to skinchangers.

[tze]

 Stark@heart, on 04 February 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

I think I'm following you but wouldn't that mean that dragon riders also had to be wargs? Dany hasn't been shown to have that ability. It seems to be only those with the blood of the First Men who can do that.

I'm saying that perhaps the prophecy does not require three dragonriders at all, or even three dragons. If the "riddle" Aemon referenced had to do with how a dragon could have three heads, then perhaps the sphinx (a creature that is a human being literally melded with various other animals) being the answer to the riddle, not the giver of the riddle, means that the popular Targ interpretation---that a dragon with three heads refers to three dragonriders---is entirely wrong. This prophecy apparently arose in Valyria. If the sphinx is the key to understanding the riddle, but the answer to the riddle is specifically not found in the "giver" of the riddle, then that could mean that the "creature" described doesn't hail from the source of the riddle---i.e., the riddle came from Valyria, but the thing it references, the "dragon" with three heads, does not derive in any way from Valyria.

"The sphinx is the riddle" means the riddle, like the sphinx, refers to a creature that is both human and animal(s). The sphinx is "not the riddler", though, which means the creature described doesn't derive from Valyria, the source of the riddle. The sphinx is important in understanding the answer to the riddle, but the place the sphinx derives from---Valyria---isn't the place where the answer to the riddle is found. My theory is that, instead of three dragonriders, the prophecy points to a Westerosi skinchanger, and it doesn't actually matter who can physically ride on those dragons' backs at all, for the purposes of this prophecy.

[ipsuel]

Tze, I think you have an interesting take on it -- something to think about.

But I still think it could also mean the blending together of different houses. In other words, the blend of 3 (?) diverse/distinct bloodlines coming together to form the ultimate "blend" if you will.

Yes, (as I said before)--it's cliche... It's the old "We all must come together and unite" thing...

However, isn't that likely exactly what is needed when the Others come to town?

Plus, we don't have any indication whatsoever that Dany is a warg... And although I get what you are saying about the prophecy maybe not relating to her, I think after 5 books of Dany, it has to.

She has had her own storyline since jump... why bother putting her in if she doesn't have a HUGE role to play? He could have just written another set of stories about her and her life... I think she HAS TO be quite relevant to the prophecy/climax/end, as do the dragons. Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense to include her story to the degree that he has.

[tze]

 ipsuel, on 05 February 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

Tze, I think you have an interesting take on it -- something to think about.

But I still think it could also mean the blending together of different houses. In other words, the blend of 3 (?) diverse/distinct bloodlines coming together to form the ultimate "blend" if you will.

Yes, (as I said before)--it's cliche... It's the old "We all must come together and unite" thing...

However, isn't that likely exactly what is needed when the Others come to town?

Plus, we don't have any indication whatsoever that Dany is a warg... And although I get what you are saying about the prophecy maybe not relating to her, I think after 5 books of Dany, it has to.

She has had her own storyline since jump... why bother putting her in if she doesn't have a HUGE role to play? He could have just written another set of stories about her and her life... I think she HAS TO be quite relevant to the prophecy/climax/end, as do the dragons. Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense to include her story to the degree that he has.

We actually haven't had 5 books of Dany. Remember AFFC? And even if Dany has some role to play in Westeros in the future, that doesn't mean it'll be a positive role, and it certainly doesn't require that all three dragons to survive long enough to get people to ride on their backs. Dany hasn't been uniting people under her banner. At best she's been getting people to unite against her. Aemon and the Red Priests have decided this prophecy is all about Dany, which pings my warning radar, as when has anyone accurately interpreted a prophecy in these books? And if anything, skinchangers have been in these books far longer than dragons. The first chapter after the Prologue in AGOT involved the finding of the direwolves, not the hatching of the dragons.

Not to mention, Dany's actually the one person in these books that doesn't represent any "melding" of bloodlines or forces, remember, as her parents were brother and sister.

Edited by tze, 05 February 2012 - 11:17 AM.

[ghost the direwolf]

do not stop, do not stop...I do like to read your posts!

[Eaeron I]

Tze, that is bloody brilliant!!!

Look at Bran for instance, he is the winged wolf, the boy with the wolfs head, the crow with a thousand eyes and two, a squirrel, a tree, he is even Hodor!

And Jon: A man, a wolf, a *crow*, and perhaps a dragon.

I think Bloodraven may have figured it out, and that is why he kept close watch at Winterfell and the Night's Watch, even before this generation of Starks came along.
One thing though, the Citadel have a male and a female sphinx at the gates, could that mean something? Is there supposed to be a female sphinx too?
I know only one female that could fit the part and that is Arya *No one* Stark. One could say that she and Jon share a mind, they know eachothers thoughts, finish eachothers sentences, so it could be something to consider here. That happens to a lot of people who live together but there has been a lot of emphasis on that in the books.