286 replies to this topic

[ManyFacedOne]

No, I don't. But I don't like the idea that he's going to wake up with powers either. If a stabbing and some snow was all it took to be Azor Ahai, then most of the north would stop wearing chainmail when they went to battle.

[just an Other]

I'm kind of ambivalent about it, I like Jon and his arc even more, but the way Martin wrote about it he's dead. One could argue about the resurrections that Maritn has firmly established them as a reality in his world (it is a fantasy after all). It depends on how he writes it. I'm definitely not happy with the cliffhanger. With Robb we were shown the aftermath straight away.

"you think he is dead, Do you?" "you were right"

[Gurkhal]

just an Other, on 05 February 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

"you think he is dead, Do you?"

I myself see this as more or less an official confirmation that Jon is going to cheat death big time.

[_watcher_on_the_wall_]

Was it confirmed that he did die, or just dying?  Just wondering as we saw Victarion healed by the red priest.  Could this be done by Melisandre to jon?

[Gurkhal]

I don't doubt for a second that Melisandre will save Jon's ass to be honest. After all if Jon gets it Melisandre's stay at the Wall will be alot more difficult if she isn't directly thrown out if the NW get the men left after dealing with the Wildlings.

[just an Other]

To me the only he didn't actually die, is that the neck wound was more severe than he realized and he passed out from the blood loss, while his other wounds were superficial. That way, if he get's immediate treatment he can survive. Not sure if I'd call that good writing.

Edited by just an Other, 05 February 2012 - 12:07 PM.

[Melpomene]

I feel like I have mixed feelings.


On one hand, if he does go through some sort of revival/fake death..it would just be a repeat of what happened to previous characters, and most likely a lack a bit of impact. It would have to be something even more original or suprising in order to really prevent that.

On another hand, there is just so much left to his story and past that hasn't been covered. It would be odd if there was so much emphasis on his story and the mysteriousness of his identity just to have him knocked him off without nothing. If he is without question 100% dead, then we would have to depend on another character(s) to fill in some gaps, and those characters are either MIA or just has gossip as info. And assuming the whole R+L=J theory is true, it would turn obsolete...after all that effort with the war, the very young death of Lyanna and RhaeRhae, just to have Jon die at a young age himself? His parents died and Ned took him in so he could live.



I guess we shall see as long as it is done well, I won't mind either way. But at the moment I feel more neutral, and purely curious about the future.

[ipsuel]

WenchofTarth, on 05 February 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

If he stays a live than all these people in this thread moaning about him would be disappointed which would be worth it all on its own.

Of course if he dies, it seems to me that there was a lot of buildup of his character with a lot of potential to lead somewhere epic in the plot (where upon he can die if need be) but in this circumstance its just foolish.  Its like Tyrion suddenly dying of the bloody flux, a meaningless death.

I'm also wondering why everyone is assuming that Ser Gregor was brought back from the dead, there was no proof of that in aDwD, jut a slight assumption from a helmeted large man now with Ceresi.  For that matter there was no real proof he actually died in the first place.

Lol I wouldn't be disappointed. I think it's kinda (very, actually) cheap to faux-kill him at this point.

To your point about Gregor -- I disagree. While it is certainly not stated anywhere that Gregor is Ser Robert Strong -- when you piece together everything in AFfC and ADwD concerning Gregor/Qyburn/Robert Strong, well, it seems like that is the only explanation. Of course Strong is going to be someone we know, it wouldn't be mysterious at all if he were just some random new character (one who just happens to be huge, and in cahoots with Qyburn). No mystery needed, just an introduction.

[LifeRuiner]

WenchofTarth, on 05 February 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

If he stays a live than all these people in this thread moaning about him would be disappointed which would be worth it all on its own.

This.

I hope that his return will be well-written and that it wouldn't repeat any other resurrections; something that is a surprise rather than a widespread fan theory.

[David Selig]

WenchofTarth, on 05 February 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

If he stays a live than all these people in this thread moaning about him would be disappointed which would be worth it all on its own.

On the other hand,  If he dies and stays dead for good, it would be totally worth it just for the whining of his fanboys.

[Winter's Lady]

No, no, no!
I fully understand why people are over the whole 'Oh, I'm dead! J/K I'm not/ I was resurrected!' thing, but GRRM has invested too many pages and built too much mystery around this character to kill him off now.
I would rather deal with another undead character than having our dear Howland Reed appear someday saying 'Yeah, he was kind of Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son and rightful king...too bad you killed him back then, eh?', or having that never resolved.

But I have hope that he will recover without dying, and if he really does die he can be resurrected. Although I would hate it if Mel did the deed. I have this other crackpot theory on this but that would be too spoilery here...

[ghost the direwolf]

Val the Wildling Princess, on 05 February 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

No! Jon can't die just like that, his story it's not over. I admit that I'm a freaking fangirl when it comes to Jon but it would just feel like such and absurd waste of time and space writing his character to make him die that way.

My point exactly!

[WenchofTarth]

ipsuel, on 05 February 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Lol I wouldn't be disappointed. I think it's kinda (very, actually) cheap to faux-kill him at this point.

To your point about Gregor -- I disagree. While it is certainly not stated anywhere that Gregor is Ser Robert Strong -- when you piece together everything in AFfC and ADwD concerning Gregor/Qyburn/Robert Strong, well, it seems like that is the only explanation. Of course Strong is going to be someone we know, it wouldn't be mysterious at all if he were just some random new character (one who just happens to be huge, and in cahoots with Qyburn). No mystery needed, just an introduction.

My thought exactly, he can die later if needed but now, in that way?  Such an abrupt, pointless end after all the work on his character.

Well I'm willing to believe that Strong is actually Ser Gregor, just not that he is an UnGregor like many are suggesting.  We are only told in the past that he is dying from the Viper's poison, we never get a death scene.  I'd more rather take the position that Gregor was reinvented, especially now that two of teh Sand Snakes are coming to KL, it would be rather inconvenient if he was still alive heh.

[ghost the direwolf]

David Selig, on 05 February 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

On the other hand,  If he dies and stays dead for good, it would be totally worth it just for the whining of his fanboys.

do not say that please

[WenchofTarth]

David Selig, on 05 February 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

On the other hand,  If he dies and stays dead for good, it would be totally worth it just for the whining of his fanboys.

I'm not a fanboy fyi, I don't really have an emotional attachment to him, I just dislike the idea of him meeting his end in the way suggested here.

Now if they kill Brienne or Jaime... I'll be a bit more ticked

*shakes fist at the possibility*

Edited by WenchofTarth, 05 February 2012 - 12:28 PM.

[ipsuel]

WenchofTarth, on 05 February 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

My thought exactly, he can die later if needed but now, in that way?  Such an abrupt, pointless end after all the work on his character.

Well I'm willing to believe that Strong is actually Ser Gregor, just not that he is an UnGregor like many are suggesting.  We are only told in the past that he is dying from the Viper's poison, we never get a death scene.  I'd more rather take the position that Gregor was reinvented, especially now that two of teh Sand Snakes are coming to KL, it would be rather inconvenient if he was still alive heh.

I could get on board with the reinvented thing for sure... In fact, I'd prefer it 10000% to an Un-Gregor.

I don't mind an 'Un-dead' character now and again, (after all, its a fantasy) but I think it's hard to walk the line between "well-written story, using un-dead characters once in a while" and "cheesy, cliche, predictable writing." And I'm of the opinion that GRRM *may* veer dangerously close to the latter.

[Carey Snow]

ipsuel, on 05 February 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

I could get on board with the reinvented thing for sure... In fact, I'd prefer it 10000% to an Un-Gregor.

I don't mind an 'Un-dead' character now and again, (after all, its a fantasy) but I think it's hard to walk the line between "well-written story, using un-dead characters once in a while" and "cheesy, cliche, predictable writing." And I'm of the opinion that GRRM *may* veer dangerously close to the latter.

That is why I do not think Martin will go there with Jon. Either one of two things happened in my opinion. Either Snow is badly wounded but not dead and Mel is able to heal him over time while Jon has some out of body experiences with Ghost ala Bran in a Game of Thrones. Or it was all a hoax and the Jon Snow that was stabbed was and illusion created by Mel and certain members of the Nightswatch was in on the hoax and carried away the fake body before it could be examined. Thus allowing Jon to leave the wall for a while and lead the Wildlings south to deal with the Boltons (who are a threat to the Night's Watch hence their motivation) and look for Arya (personal motivation).

Of course, that basically leaves the wall in control of Mel and very vulnerable to an attack by the Others.

Edited by Carey Wilson, 05 February 2012 - 01:02 PM.

[Sevumar]

I don't think the story gains much from Jon dying permanently as a result of the betrayal of Bowen and the other Watch members. I am curious to see what happens to him. Jon's in a place where he suddenly has more options than he's had in a long time, and it's fascinating to think about where the road might lead from here. He's been a Night's Watch member completely dedicated to the order for most of the story, and now that doesn't really have to be true anymore, or it could still be true. He's one of the characters whose stories I'm most eager to follow in TWoW and beyond.

Martin tends not to give us back resurrected characters as "normal" versions of themselves, so I'm hoping that his death can be prevented in the first place. Like Dany, I'm not sure that Jon is going to draw the lesson that we'd want him to learn from this experience. Here's hoping he doesn't give himself over to vengeance and that he remembers he has a job to do.

[ipsuel]

Carey Wilson, on 05 February 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

That is why I do not think Martin will go there with Jon. Either one of two things happened in my opinion. Either Snow is badly wounded but not dead and Mel is able to heal him over time while Jon has some out of body experiences with Ghost ala Bran in a Game of Thrones. Or it was all a hoax and the Jon Snow that was stabbed was and illusion created by Mel and certain members of the Nightswatch was in on the hoax and carried away the fake body before it could be examined. Thus allowing Jon to leave the wall for a while and lead the Wildlings south to deal with the Boltons (who are a threat to the Night's Watch hence their motivation) and look for Arya (personal motivation).

Of course, that basically leaves the wall in control of Mel and very vulnerable to an attack by the Others.

From your mouth to GRRM's ears

[Skeksi]

On the one hand, I would kind of like Jon to die, as I find him boring, kind of cliched, and honestly, I'm kind of tired of reading about him. And it would emphasise the "anyone can die" part of the series, and how good intentions don't necessarily make someone a good leader. And I don't really care who his parents are, TBH- in fact, if the R+L theory is true, they happen to be two of the few characters who annoy me more than Jon, and they haven't even appeared on screen yet...

On the other hand, I do understand why some people think it would be a waste to have him just die after all the time invested in him- not to mention the presence of the warging at the start of ADwD- potential foreshadowing, maybe? I could live with Jon-as-Ghost, I actually think it would be quite interesting to read Jon in the body of Ghost becoming more wolflike. UnJon could also be interesting. But the "Not really dead after all!" has been used quite a lot in these books (Sandor just knocked Arya unconscious, Yoren was just cutting her hair, Asha was taken prisoner and knocked out, the Hound might still be alive on the Quiet Isle, etc.), and I can't tell you how irritated I would be if Jon magically got reborn as some sort of superhero.