286 replies to this topic

[Light a wight tonight]

I'm really ambivalent about Jon's situation. I hope he's not dead, but.......

There are just too many resuscitations of slain charactrers in the series, to the point that I feel they need to stop. Obviously GRRM disagrees with me on this point, and he's in charge.

However, I think he's too central a character to lose and his death leaves too many loose ends. Without his strong opposition Stannis will take over the  Wall from the Night Watch and he's basically clueless as to the true situation there, as a for-instance.

And what becomes of all the Rhaegar+Lyanna topics if he stays dead?

Edited by Light a wight tonight, 05 February 2012 - 01:34 PM.

[Helyn Snow]

No, I definitely wouldn't like Jon to be reborn as some sort of superhero - I just want him to be Jon, but with the knowledge that is more special than a mere bastard. Also, I want him to live so he can tear the other well known northern bastard a new a-hole.

[vogorroswhore]

Please, please, PLEASE, by all that is annoying about R'hllor, let Jon Snow be dead.  I have always been ambivalent at best about Jon Snow, and leaning more towards being always irritated with him and his constant brooding on his responsibilities and/or daddy issues.

However, I doubt Jon Snow is dead, or at least not permanently.  He'll be back, either by 1. not dying, 2. coming back as a wight, 3. coming back via the "kiss of R'hllor" or whatever a la Beric Dondarrion and UnCat, or 4. warging Ghost or someone/something else.  On the bright side, whatever form he comes back in, I imagine he'll be dramatically changed.  GRRM has always built up that Jon has some major part in the endgame of these books and it seems awfully cheap to assassinate him and remove him altogether, but he could give the character a complete overhaul and change his personality/goals/actions dramatically.   I predict Jon Snow as we have known him is dead whether he dies or not.

Edited by vogorroswhore, 05 February 2012 - 01:47 PM.

[The Oncoming Storm]

Yes, but not now. He has too much shit to do. He could fall in the final battle with the Others. Although I would most love to see him as a long-ruling LC, a living legend who everyone knows could be the king but he doesn't want it (see Carrot Ironfoundersson). Or, in case of no more Night's Watch and eternal summer, in Stannis' Kingsguard, proudly keeping the Snow because he remembers Tyrion's advice.

[Mist Isle]

It would be interesting if Jon Snow became a new version of the Night's King or something similar (perhaps an anti-Other version).  Melisandre is already located at the Wall so there is some chance that they could set up a type of inverse replication of the Night's King scenario or a modified version of it.  This could perhaps be one of the "ice and fire" threads of the series.

Snow could also end up in a similar condition to Coldhands and become a more direct Night's King.

Edited by Mist Isle, 08 February 2012 - 12:42 PM.

[Apple Martini]

I'm actually fine with it if he dies eventually, in the world-saving, self-sacrificing vein.

But I'll be quite angry if this "death" of Jon's ends up being permanent, for all of the reasons everyone else have said: He has too much left to do and far too much build-up.

Edited by Apple Martini, 05 February 2012 - 02:28 PM.

[Monk Meth-]

jon is obviously not dead.

[The King in the South]

I want Jon the character to die (since you know, he was killed...)
That doesn't mean I don't want him to be reborn as AA (even if it is cliche).

However if he is reborn, there really should be some considerable differences between him and his old self IMO

[Ser Ilyn's Tongue]

No, I wouldn't like it if Jon is dead.  Personally, I would find it a huge anti-climax for his character if we've seen the last of him (I don't think we have) - there's surely more for him to do.  I kind of understand peoples dislike of 'plot armour' but if a character is still important to the story then I don't have a problem with them remaining in it.

I like Jon but if he dies eventually I won't mind too much - as I'm sure GRRM would do it well.

If Jon is gone, from whose POV would we see events at the Wall from?  Melisandre?  Possibly Dany or Arya in the future?

Edited by Ser Ilyn's Tongue, 05 February 2012 - 04:07 PM.

[jarl the climber]

Let me say this about the idea of Jon being ressurected. There is only two character we see brought back from death by magic, Beric and Lady Stoneheart. Thoros actually brought back Beric by accident, he was actually giving Beric last rites and unCats revival is somehow tied to this. The other possible ressurection is Davos Seaworth, we know that Melasindre burned three men on Dragonstone, Ser Hubards sons and Lord Sunglass, right after the Blackwater battle, what was she trying to accomplish with this? When Davos is the rock he says he remembers that he was drowning and the next thing he knows he wakes up on the rock, next to a corpse and some wreckage. In the next chapter he tells Salla that he got under the chain and swam to the rock. This is unusual, Davos isn't a liar, why didn't he tell Saan the truth? He was trying to covince Saan that he had been sent back for a reason, to kill Mel, why not give him the best evidence? Perhaps because he realized how preposterous it sounded, how could he be alive if he drowned. So I think Mel brought him back without realizing it just like Thoros with Beric and that Davos's fingerbones played a role somehow, might even give his body the illusion of being alive. The point is I don't think Mel knows how to ressurect people, if it happens it will be an accident or unintended. Its also intereting that the 3 people she burned on Dragonstone died for protecting the sept or the 7 gods, and Davos believes the 7 sent him back to kill Mel at least at first but he only gives that up because he can't. Beric is also moved by a deep sense of duty and religion, so Jon would be a strong candidate, him and Davos and Stannis are also the only men we know of who she has approched about making shadow babies, they are the only ones whos life fires are strong enough. Can definitely see Mel frying Bowen Marsh and company if she gets the chance, if Jon is delirious she might try to make a shadow creature by making him think she is Ygritte. I noticed the thread aked how Jon would be ressurected so I'm thinking if he is it will be unintentionaly and we can't use Beric or unCat as a template.

[therustman]

jarl the climber, on 05 February 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

Let me say this about the idea of Jon being ressurected. There is only two character we see brought back from death by magic, Beric and Lady Stoneheart. Thoros actually brought back Beric by accident, he was actually giving Beric last rites and unCats revival is somehow tied to this. The other possible ressurection is Davos Seaworth, we know that Melasindre burned three men on Dragonstone, Ser Hubards sons and Lord Sunglass, right after the Blackwater battle, what was she trying to accomplish with this? When Davos is the rock he says he remembers that he was drowning and the next thing he knows he wakes up on the rock, next to a corpse and some wreckage. In the next chapter he tells Salla that he got under the chain and swam to the rock. This is unusual, Davos isn't a liar, why didn't he tell Saan the truth? He was trying to covince Saan that he had been sent back for a reason, to kill Mel, why not give him the best evidence? Perhaps because he realized how preposterous it sounded, how could he be alive if he drowned. So I think Mel brought him back without realizing it just like Thoros with Beric and that Davos's fingerbones played a role somehow, might even give his body the illusion of being alive. The point is I don't think Mel knows how to ressurect people, if it happens it will be an accident or unintended. Its also intereting that the 3 people she burned on Dragonstone died for protecting the sept or the 7 gods, and Davos believes the 7 sent him back to kill Mel at least at first but he only gives that up because he can't. Beric is also moved by a deep sense of duty and religion, so Jon would be a strong candidate, him and Davos and Stannis are also the only men we know of who she has approched about making shadow babies, they are the only ones whos life fires are strong enough. Can definitely see Mel frying Bowen Marsh and company if she gets the chance, if Jon is delirious she might try to make a shadow creature by making him think she is Ygritte. I noticed the thread aked how Jon would be ressurected so I'm thinking if he is it will be unintentionaly and we can't use Beric or unCat as a template.

I don't think Mel had anything to do with Davos surviving, he passed out and got washed ashore.

If there was any divine intervention likely the 7.


Jon won't be dead, I like the glamour theory above, not something that dawned on me. So that or that he didnt die - lots of clothes remember - fell unconcious and those stabbing him are attacked by wildlings before they finish the job.

[Gurkhal]

I think that the main problem with the glamour theory would be that it, if I've understood everything right, happened during Jon's own POV and the glamour only changes the outward appearence of a person but not the inner characters and thus I don't think it was a feint but the real Jon who got a taste of steel.

[therustman]

Gurkhal, on 05 February 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

I think that the main problem with the glamour theory would be that it, if I've understood everything right, happened during Jon's own POV and the glamour only changes the outward appearence of a person but not the inner characters and thus I don't think it was a feint but the real Jon who got a taste of steel.

Good point, shame though

[WenchofTarth]

Alcanis Ivennil, on 05 February 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Yes, but not now. He has too much shit to do. He could fall in the final battle with the Others. Although I would most love to see him as a long-ruling LC, a living legend who everyone knows could be the king but he doesn't want it (see Carrot Ironfoundersson). Or, in case of no more Night's Watch and eternal summer, in Stannis' Kingsguard, proudly keeping the Snow because he remembers Tyrion's advice.

I really believe Jon will be needed to be able to rally all of Westeros with Dany and whatever other forces are still arond when the Others descend on them all.  Besides, there is that mystery of who is mother is (father as well?!) that needs to be answered and the revelation will mean so much less I think if Jon isn't around to find out himself.  Killing him now is just so completely pointless.

Plus, I really don't think the necromancy is overdone, Beric and Cat, that covers it.  It isn't as if its becoming an every day occurance that we can yawn over.  I figured myself that if this tactic is usd with Jon, that this will be a way to convert Jon over to R'hollr that Mel has been trying to accomplish.  I think this might be a way to get him on her side.

I don't believe he's dead in the slightest and to those who want him to be so I have to say that it would leave so many strings hanging out there... simply intolerable

[Ojji]

I don't wan Jon to die, who else would take care of Ghost?

[lostinwesteros]

ipsuel, on 05 February 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

I don't want Jon to die, but I also don't want him to be revived in any way. I just think that's a weak way to go with him. We've had enough revivals imo.

What I really want is to see that he was injured but lives through it -- I *want* him to struggle with his staying true to his vows vs. what's going on south of the Wall.

I think that's where the real character of him comes in.

To have him conveniently released from his vows... warged into Ghost and have Mel revive him?? I think it's weak and so very cliche.

Let him make these hard choices. Let his struggle to overcome. Let's see him make adult, honorable-man choices. Let him EARN what will (with little doubt) be his place as a Targ.

Absolutely!  

And since the mystery of Jon's 'heritage' was planted in the very beginning of the very first book of the series, I can't see that his story line would end with ADWD, especially not with all of the R+L=J discussion.  I can see Ned being especially uncommunicative about Jon's origins because he held Jon 'in trust' (Jon C.'s situation with YG would be a similar situation), and that is perhaps why Catelyn remained so unforgiving of him/Jon.  It would be so Ned for Ned to bear the burden of being thought unfaithful rather than to betray a trust.  That scenario is much truer to Ned's character than for him to have just wandered off into another woman's bed in the year after he wed Catelyn.  [Even Robb, Ned's son for sure, had that 'honor' thing that was part of his marrying Jeyne the day after he'd slept with her.]    

That said, I do not want him resurrected like Beric/Catelyn or being 'warged' back to life.  Please!  There's been enough of that already, and it would just take away Jon's honor/dignity somehow.  I perfer, and expect [hope] that he will recover from his wounds and not die at all.

[ipsuel]

Necromancy may not be overdone -- but "deaths" (including the quotation marks) are. By "deaths" I mean him trying to give the appearance of possible/probably death... only to... yawnnn... show us otherwise.

Cat, Beric
Bran/Rikkon
Gregor
Brienne
Davos.
Reek (Ramsay)
Mance Rayder
Etc...


And it's not just us, the readers. It's the characters.
Starks thinking Arya is dead. People thinking Davos is dead. People thinking they killed Ramsay.

Oh... and let's not forget... AEGON!

I guarantee you I missed several examples both to the reader, and of fake deaths in Westeros overall.

Edited by ipsuel, 05 February 2012 - 05:23 PM.

[imany]

I hope Jon lives with Melisandre healing his wounds all black and smoking like Victarion's hand.

[4rcane]

I want Jon to lead the "Others"
I agree with you that I think George Martin have OVERUSED death scenes that turned out false. It have cheapen the experience

[Grail King]

I like many don't think he's totally dead I believe he's gravely wounded, I don't want Mel in anyway involved with bringing him back my idea is his true supporters whisk him to safety but his pulse is so weak he is taken for dead, so they put him in a ice cell ( cold preserves) where they can try and stop the bleeding, Jon slips into Ghost as his wounds try to heal after a time he still doesn't wake up they take him to the Heart Tree where he made his vows and stand vigil for his last hours as this is happening and Bran can give him the things he needs to fight the Others:

BIG ASS SPOILER......

Spoiler

Theon is taken to the Heart Tree at the lake and is done in the old way by Stannis,reviving Jon.