236 replies to this topic

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Fearsome Fred, on 06 February 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

I'm not "accounting", only "counting".  And I only count the self-identified.  So of those who think it is rude to identify one's religious beliefs, I only count the rude ones.

Edit:  Out of curiosity, do you think that it is rude to identify one's religious beliefs?  And does this rule apply only to the religious, and not to atheists/agnostics?

Religious beliefs or lack thereof are private and should be kept that way. I was raised never to discuss religion or politics even with people who you agree with.

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

Don't come on this topic and comment then. Just because you don't want to discuss your religious beliefs doesn't mean others can't discuss theirs with each other. This topic is not about what you actually believe in religion wise but what people think of the fictional religions in the story, the motivations of some of the characters and how they relate to them.

Keep your principles for yourself, don't force them on others.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon, on 07 February 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

Don't come on this topic and comment then. Just because you don't want to discuss your religious beliefs doesn't mean others can't discuss theirs with each other. This topic is not about what you actually believe in religion wise but what people think of the fictional religions in the story, the motivations of some of the characters and how they relate to them.

Keep your principles for yourself, don't force them on others.

If you're referring to me Your Grace I was answering the gentleman's question. As you can see from my earlier post I said I'd belong to the Faith of the Seven. And I was referring to my own believe that it shouldn't be discussed not that you or anyone else shouldn't be allowed to. And for your information I had meant to edit my post saying that I thought that discussing fictional religion was a different matter all togother before you felt the need to tell me I shouldn't comment on the topic.

Edited by Arch-MaesterPhilip, 07 February 2012 - 08:26 AM.

[Lady Octarina]

Just something that came to my mind the other day and can corroborate my theory that atheism is an impossibility in the ASoIaF world: have you noticed how none of the characters, no matter how desperate or angry they are, ever say there are no gods? They're always saying the gods are cruel and things like that, but they never deny their existence.

[Fearsome Fred]

Well, by my count, this thread contains (in RL):

17 self-identified Atheists/Agnostics/Nonbelievers/"Godless-Heathens".
3 self-identified Christians.
1 self-identified Taoist/Animist.

Again, is this imbalance a feature of net-culture? Or are die hard GRRM fans that radically out of line with the general population?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Fearsome Fred, on 24 February 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Well, by my count, this thread contains (in RL):

17 self-identified Atheists/Agnostics/Nonbelievers/"Godless-Heathens".
3 self-identified Christians.
1 self-identified Taoist/Animist.

Again, is this imbalance a feature of net-culture? Or are die hard GRRM fans that radically out of line with the general population?

In all likelihood this is just self-selection bias.

[Fearsome Fred]

Lady Octarina, on 24 February 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

Just something that came to my mind the other day and can corroborate my theory that atheism is an impossibility in the ASoIaF world: have you noticed how none of the characters, no matter how desperate or angry they are, ever say there are no gods?

In the pre-modern times, for a man to hold the idea that there were no forces smarter, more powerful, and with greater control over the universe, than himself was very rare, and rather more difficult to take seriously.

In short, there were lots of God-less heathens, but very few god-less (small g) heathens.

Of course, one could argue that we have our gods (small g) even today.  We just don't call them "gods".

[Fearsome Fred]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 24 February 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

In all likelihood this is just self-selection bias.

Not sure what you mean.

Are you saying that the thread-title attracts atheists?

Or that Christians are more reluctant to self-identify?

[atia-]

Well, there were probably plenty of people that were doubtful of the existence of a higher power, but it was way more improper to actually say that, especially "important people."  If Tywin said, "I don't believe in the Seven" that probably would have hurt his image.....I doubt Tywin was all that religious, however.  And isn't Tyrion not really religious either?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Fearsome Fred, on 24 February 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Not sure what you mean.

Are you saying that the thread-title attracts atheists?

Or that Christians are more reluctant to self-identify?

Probably a combination of :
1) the thread title attracting atheists
2) atheists like me being more likely to self-identify (I went and did it again!)
3) believers being less likely to self-identify

I just can't see this fandom being that atheistic, as much as I would like for it to be. So I've got to assume that people who are stating their views on belief one way or another in this thread are self-selecting in some way that is causing the numbers to vastly favor non-believers over believers.

[Fearsome Fred]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 24 February 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Probably a combination of :
1) the thread title attracting atheists
2) atheists like me being more likely to self-identify (I went and did it again!)
3) believers being less likely to self-identify

I'm not sure I buy any of these ... at least not to a sufficient degree to explain the imbalance.  Perhaps more folks will chime in and add to the tally.

Why would believers be less likely to self-identify?  Unless the culture - or perhaps just the online culture - has become overwhelmingly hostile to theism (which I am not claiming).

I can understand, however, atheists being less likely to identify in RL.  In fact, we had an atheist/agnostic in this thread preaching the impropriety of self-identification even in an online context (I counted him in my tally nonetheless, bc it was far too obvious).

Quote

I just can't see this fandom being that atheistic, as much as I would like for it to be.

Maybe the fandom isn't.  But perhaps the board does not reflect the fandom.

Edit:  I wonder if I were to start a poll threat with a neutral-themed title, would the mods think it inappropriate and shut it down.  I'm just curious.

Edited by Fearsome Fred, 24 February 2012 - 10:33 PM.

[TrueMetis]

I'd still be an atheist, cause in a world with established magic all of the stupid arguments people make for deities become even stupider. No a god didn't do it, a magician did.

Lady Octarina, on 06 February 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

They didn't burn Jews and Christians or expelled them from their territories - that looks like tolerance to me, all things considered.

Arch-MaesterPhilip, on 06 February 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

It may be less intolerant but thats all.

There was also a fair amount of pretty open religious debate and they had their own court systems when not dealing with Muslims. Christians and Jews (and sometimes more groups depending on the exact time) had to pay more taxes and had less say in government, sounds a lot like having a work visa today to me. I'd much rather be their than anywhere in Christian Europe, and once that started to head down hill my ass would be heading to China.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Fearsome Fred, on 24 February 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

I'm not sure I buy any of these ... at least not to a sufficient degree to explain the imbalance.  Perhaps more folks will chime in and add to the tally.

I'm thinking that maybe it doesn't explain away all of the imbalance, but a lot of it. What I mean is, based on your tally it looks like this is a pretty signficantly non-believing board, probably more than could be totally explained away by bias. But I would guess an accurate poll would show a closer tally than 17 to 4, maybe it would be more like 12 to 9 or 13 to 8 or something. I don't know...I just can't see this board being that godless when the general population isn't. I could be wrong.

Edited by OnionAhaiReborn, 24 February 2012 - 10:34 PM.

[Bastard Walder]

You missed one.
Naath, where Missandei (yes I had to look that up) is from is full of pacifists who believe in a magical butterfly god who loves everybody.

That could be nice, I guess.

[Baitac]

One thing that I liked about ASOIF is that there were so many religions. Even in a unified Westeros, different religions were recognized according to region. At the same time, I noticed that these religions had strong ties to the regions' environments. I particularly enjoyed the tour of Braavos' temples to this and to that and the feasts that were attached to them. I didn't notice any religious persecution. I don't know if much would be made about someone not following any of the religions listed in the books.

[Fearsome Fred]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 24 February 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

I'm thinking that maybe it doesn't explain away all of the imbalance, but a lot of it. What I mean is, based on your tally it looks like this is a pretty signficantly non-believing board, probably more than could be totally explained away by bias. But I would guess an accurate poll would show a closer tally than 17 to 4, maybe it would be more like 12 to 9 or 13 to 8 or something.

Right.  It just went up to 18 to 4, BTW.  From my perspective, the imbalance looks even greater, because I (being a Monotheist, and therefore biased) would probably categorize the Taoist as a non-Theist, and put the tally at 19 to 3.  Then I would eliminate myself (as the observer) and arrive at 19 to 2.

Quote

I don't know...I just can't see this board being that godless when the general population isn't. I could be wrong.

I have long suspected that the general population, and the general culture, is more "godless" than polls and statistics indicate, though.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Lady Octarina, on 24 February 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

Just something that came to my mind the other day and can corroborate my theory that atheism is an impossibility in the ASoIaF world: have you noticed how none of the characters, no matter how desperate or angry they are, ever say there are no gods? They're always saying the gods are cruel and things like that, but they never deny their existence.

Stannis to Davos: "I stopped believing in gods the day I saw Windproud break up across the bay. Any gods so monstrous as to drown my father would never have my worship."

You're wrong twofold here, not only is it shown that there are characters who deny the existence of gods, but even if they didn't it would not make it "impossible" to be an Atheist in Westeros.

[Fearsome Fred]

The Swaggering Bravo, on 25 February 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

Stannis to Davos: "I stopped believing in gods the day I saw Windproud break up across the bay. Any gods so monstrous as to drown my father would never have my worship."

You're wrong twofold here, not only is it shown that there are characters who deny the existence of gods, [...]

But that's not what Stannis is saying.  He does not appear to be denying the EXISTENCE of the gods.  He is saying the gods are monstrous and cruel, and do not deserve his worship.  Or, to put it another way, he has a quasi-Lovecraftian view of the universe in which there are no gods, only demons and monsters.

He does not believe in gods in the same way that Sandor does  not believe in knights.

Quote

... but even if they didn't it would not make it "impossible" to be an Atheist in Westeros.

In a pre-modern setting, it is possible to hold belief-systems that are roughly analogous to modern rationalist materialist Atheism.  But one could not define that belief system in the way that moderns do, because nothing analogous to "modern science" exists.  Too little is known about "the laws of nature" to know what is or is not "supernatural".

Does a modern atheist necessarily rule out the possibility of alien beings with intelligence and technology far in advance of our own?  How does that differ, in principle, from a pre-modern who believes in, but does not necessarily worship "gods".

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Fearsome Fred, on 25 February 2012 - 02:32 AM, said:

But that's not what Stannis is saying.  He does not appear to be denying the EXISTENCE of the gods.  He is saying the gods are monstrous and cruel, and do not deserve his worship.  Or, to put it another way, he has a quasi-Lovecraftian view of the universe in which there are no gods, only demons and monsters.

He does not believe in gods in the same way that Sandor does  not believe in knights.



In a pre-modern setting, it is possible to hold belief-systems that are roughly analogous to modern rationalist materialist Atheism.  But one could not define that belief system in the way that moderns do, because nothing analogous to "modern science" exists.  Too little is known about "the laws of nature" to know what is or is not "supernatural".

Does a modern atheist necessarily rule out the possibility of alien beings with intelligence and technology far in advance of our own?  How does that differ, in principle, from a pre-modern who believes in, but does not necessarily worship "gods".

No, he said he doesn't believe in gods, I cannot believe how I can quote someone saying "I stopped believing in gods" and you will somehow make it sound like he does, but he just doesn't like them. Atheism is the lack of belief in a god, if someone doesn't believe, than they're an Atheist, you don't need to be in our modern era to do this. Sandor doesn't believe knights exist, just as Stannis said he doesn't believe gods exist. Just because he stopped believing in them because he thought that gods wouldn't allow such cruelty does not mean he still believes in them but he thinks they permit that.

I will repeat: His exact words were "I stopped believing in gods".

[Mark Antony]

old gods