236 replies to this topic

[protar]

Well I'm an atheist but that would probably be different in a world with magic and dragons etc. I think I'd follow R'hllor.

Also as a side note has anyone noticed that religion in ASOIAF is really weird? Everyone who's not a downright atheist like Sandor seem to every God, and it's just a matter of personal preference. Like Victarion paying homage to both R'hllor and the Drowned God. Was that really how it worked in those days?

[The Drunkard]

Nah, I'd definitely be a believer in Westeros. Too many upsides.

[FiveByeSeven]

vogorroswhore, on 05 February 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

...I can't think of any other religions from the book.  Any I missed?

You missed the Ghiscari Harpy religion.

[Lady Octarina]

Well, if I am one in this world, why wouldn't I be an atheist in Westeros?
xD

But, seriously, I don't think that's an option. It's like being an atheist at the Middle Ages. You may privately have your doubts about the existence of gods etc, but it it expected of you to attend religious ceremonies, all life is marked by religion. Take Stannis for example. He is the closest thing we have to an atheist in Westeros, but still he had to adopt a god for his social and political obligations to his bannermen, to have their support. Or Tyrion, who always seem to be saying something against the gods. He studied to be a septon, he has far too much religious knowledges and notions to be considered an atheist. He still believes he's gong to one of their hells.

Also, I think in ASoIaF your religion orientation is mostly determined by where you were born/where you live.

If I had to choose, I'd still go with the old gods, even if we now know what is really behind them. It's the closest to nature we get there.

And I don't know why so many seem abhorred by ASoIaF religions, since they are mostly a reflex from those we have, or had, in our own world, some of which I'm certain people on this board adopt.

Edit:

protar, on 06 February 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

Also as a side note has anyone noticed that religion in ASOIAF is really weird? Everyone who's not a downright atheist like Sandor seem to every God, and it's just a matter of personal preference. Like Victarion paying homage to both R'hllor and the Drowned God. Was that really how it worked in those days?

Well, not exactly, but in the past there were cultures much more respectful towards other religions than nowadays. For instance, Muslins didn't discriminate Christians and Jews living in their territories as much as Christians and Jews discriminated them and one another. They had to pay higher taxes, but that was all.
And of course, in polytheist cultures Victarion's attitude wouldn't be that out of place.

Edited by Lady Octarina, 06 February 2012 - 08:10 AM.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Lady Octarina, on 06 February 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

They had to pay higher taxes, but that was all.

Jews and Christians had to pay higher taxes as a way of forcing them to convert to Islam. That seems like discrimination to me.

[Lady Octarina]

Arch-MaesterPhilip, on 06 February 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

Jews and Christians had to pay higher taxes as a way of forcing them to convert to Islam. That seems like discrimination to me.

They didn't burn Jews and Christians or expelled them from their territories - that looks like tolerance to me, all things considered.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Lady Octarina, on 06 February 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

They didn't burn Jews and Christians or expelled them from their territories - that looks like tolerance to me, all things considered.

It may be less intolerant but thats all.

[Gurkhal]

protar, on 06 February 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

Was that really how it worked in those days?

It is my understanding that during and in polytheistic societies this pretty much how it worked and the world view wasn't as fixed in the same way that monotheists have it and thus you could accept and incorporate new deities into your world view without much theological problem, as I've understood it. Of course many cultures thought that perhaps their gods were the most powerful or important, or that other people worshipped their gods under different names but the basic principle would remain.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Gurkhal, on 06 February 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

It is my understanding that during and in polytheistic societies this pretty much how it worked and the world view wasn't as fixed in the same way that monotheists have it and thus you could accept and incorporate new deities into your world view without much theological problem, as I've understood it. Of course many cultures thought that perhaps their gods were the most powerful or important, or that other people worshipped their gods under different names but the basic principle would remain.

The eastern religions today are like that as well. They don't see their religions as better than anyone else's.

[ServantOnIce]

I am a bible believing Christian in real life since I am Ebon Skinned Summer Islander probably belong to a hybrid of the Seven mixed with some of our own cultural ideas on faith.

[Free Northman]

Wow. There's a lot of atheists on this board.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Im a non-beliver, but to be an atheist in Westeros, well thats kinda ridiculous. Its like watching Skywalker deflect a blaster blast with the helmet on and then, Han Solo saying "Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny."

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Jaime is another example of an atheist living in Westeros, and I happen to agree with with him. Where are the God's when all of the bad shit is happening? I'm thinking that we'll find out that there aren't any Gods in Westeros. We already know that the Old Gods are just greenseers using the weirwood trees.

Edited by Ororo727, 06 February 2012 - 12:46 PM.

[Lady Octarina]

Ororo727, on 06 February 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Jaime is another example of an atheist living in Westeros, and I happen to agree with with him. Where are the God's when all of the bad shit is happening? I'm thinking that we'll find out that there aren't any Gods in Westeros. We already know that the Old Gods are just greenseers using the weirwood trees.

I generally agree with what you're saying, but I still think it's very difficult to be an atheist in Westeros. A world so dull of actual magic, where the dead walk, a treeman watches everything, mythical beings exist inside caves, and dragons fly in the skies, well... Of course, most of the population knows nothing about any of these events, and none of them necessarily makes a person believe in gods, but in magical forces, certainly. So, I think it's only possible to be an atheist in Westeros and Essos in terms of conviction that there is no god, but as I said before, they would still act like there was one for social pressures, and they would have to acknowledge the existence of magic. It would be a different atheism to ours.

[Helyn Snow]

I'm agnostic and get the mick taken out of me for it by my atheist friends. But I think in Westeros that could be a plus - I'd be most interested in the Old Gods, but I'd also like to dabble with Rh'llor; it seems to get the most results. But by the time fire started coming out of my private parts, I'd maybe think about going back to the Old Gods of the North... But then the Many Faced God has a bit of everything, so maybe...

[Free Northman]

joanna snow, on 06 February 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

I'm agnostic and get the mick taken out of me for it by my atheist friends.

Wait. Atheists look down on agnostics?

Surely an agnostic is the most open minded of all? What's there to take the mick out of?

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Lady Octarina, on 06 February 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

I generally agree with what you're saying, but I still think it's very difficult to be an atheist in Westeros. A world so dull of actual magic, where the dead walk, a treeman watches everything, mythical beings exist inside caves, and dragons fly in the skies, well... Of course, most of the population knows nothing about any of these events, and none of them necessarily makes a person believe in gods, but in magical forces, certainly. So, I think it's only possible to be an atheist in Westeros and Essos in terms of conviction that there is no god, but as I said before, they would still act like there was one for social pressures, and they would have to acknowledge the existence of magic. It would be a different atheism to ours.

Can the maesters be considered the atheists of their day? They are opposed to magic we know, however, I cannot recall an instance of them discussing religion. Does anyone have a reference?

[Lykos]

Free Northman, on 06 February 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

Wait. Atheists look down on agnostics?

Surely an agnostic is the most open minded of all? What's there to take the mick out of?

To clarify: Atheists firmly believe that there is no god! If you´re not sure, you´re an agnostic ( well,  you if don´t follow any teaching).

I really love to invent my own religions, so I´d probably join the Moonsingers in Bravos to learn what they´re about, and later fuse the best parts together.

Ororo I think the Maesters believe in the Seven.

Edited by Lykos, 06 February 2012 - 02:59 PM.

[Nev yn]

Quote

"Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny."

And yet, in the end Han was right.  The Force is just midichlorian excrement.

There doesn't need to be an actual deity for "magic" to happen.  And just because magical things are attributed to deities doesn't mean those deities exist.  People could be actively lying, or not know the actual source of their magical abilities/powers (kind of like the Fullmetal Alchemist manga).

People deified lightning and all sorts of other natural forces (the Sun, etc).  Just because amazing things happen to our eyes doesn't mean a deity is the driving factor.

Quote

Surely an agnostic is the most open minded of all? What's there to take the mick out of?

I believe a possible retort would be that some people keep their minds so open their brains fall out.

Edited by Nev yn, 06 February 2012 - 03:08 PM.

[Free Northman]

Lykos, on 06 February 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

To clarify: Atheists firmly believe that there is no god! If you´re not sure, you´re an agnostic ( well,  you if don´t follow any teaching).

I really love to invent my own religions, so I´d probably join the Moonsingers in Bravos to learn what they´re about, and later fuse the best parts together.

Ororo I think the Maesters believe in the Seven.

I'm well aware of the difference between an atheist and an agnostic.

But surely an agnostic's position is the most open minded of all.