236 replies to this topic

[Helyn Snow]

Free Northman, on 06 February 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

Wait. Atheists look down on agnostics?

Surely an agnostic is the most open minded of all? What's there to take the mick out of?

I don't know - I think they see it as some kind of weakness that I can't decide one way or another.

[Lykos]

Free Northman, on 06 February 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

I'm well aware of the difference between an atheist and an agnostic.

But surely an agnostic's position is the most open minded of all.

No offence intended, there are many who think that, if you do not believe in god you are an atheist.

[Free Northman]

Lykos, on 06 February 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

No offence intended, there are many who think that, if you do not believe in god you are an atheist.

None taken.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Lykos, on 06 February 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

Ororo I think the Maesters believe in the Seven.

I'm not sure about that. Wouldn't their beliefs depend on where they are from?  Believing in religion is no different than the believing magic.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Ororo727, on 06 February 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

I'm not sure about that. Wouldn't their beliefs depend on where they are from?  Believing in religion is no different than the believing magic.

it may be just slang, but still

The fat maester cleared his throat. “Stannis Baratheon was brother to our late King Robert, may the Father judge him justly. Tommen is the issue of Robert’s body. The laws of succession are clear in such a case. A son must come before a brother.”
   “Maester Theomore speaks truly,” said Lord Wyman. “He is wise in all such matters, and has always given me good counsel.”

e.t.a And the Manderly's are from the north, but maybe Wyman's maester is from the south in which case this argument is very flawed

Edited by Ndrew of Typhgarian, 06 February 2012 - 04:44 PM.

[Lykos]

Ororo727, on 06 February 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

I'm not sure about that. Wouldn't their beliefs depend on where they are from?  Believing in religion is no different than the believing magic.

I think you´re right .  Still they seem to accept the religions.

[Lady Octarina]

Ororo727, on 06 February 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

Can the maesters be considered the atheists of their day? They are opposed to magic we know, however, I cannot recall an instance of them discussing religion. Does anyone have a reference?

Lykos, on 06 February 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

Ororo I think the Maesters believe in the Seven.

I think that, unofficially, the maesters could be considered the atheists of their days. They're the closest we have to scientists in Westeros, and, indeed, they have never discussed religious issues. IMO, they don't believe in gods, but as I said before, like most people there, they officially worship the Seven for matters of convenience - to be accepted in that society mostly of religious people. And again, if someone is raised in a society where everyone has and practices a religion, it's very difficult to consider him an atheist; it's like they don't have the mental categories to imagine a world with no gods, though they can be angry at them sometimes or question their existence. For those interested in the subject, I would recommend this classic by Lucien Febvre, The Problem of Unbelief in the Sixteenth Century: The Religion of Rabelais. It's hard to read at first, but his interpretation is so interesting you manage to finish the book in no time ^.~

Edit:

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 06 February 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

it may be just slang, but still

The fat maester cleared his throat. “Stannis Baratheon was brother to our late King Robert, may the Father judge him justly. Tommen is the issue of Robert’s body. The laws of succession are clear in such a case. A son must come before a brother.”
               “Maester Theomore speaks truly,” said Lord Wyman. “He is wise in all such matters, and has always given me good counsel.”

This doesn't mean much - how many atheists use a religious exclamation once in a while, just because they were brought up listening to people use them, in our world? the only example I can give in English is the basic "Oh my god", that the atheists in our generation translated to OMFG, but it's still a valid point

Edited by Lady Octarina, 06 February 2012 - 04:58 PM.

[Lykos]

Lady Octarina, on 06 February 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

I think that, unofficially, the maesters could be considered the atheists of their days. They're the closest we have to scientists in Westeros, and, indeed, they have never discussed religious issues. IMO, they don't believe in gods, but as I said before, like most people there, they officially worship the Seven for matters of convenience - to be accepted in that society mostly of religious people. And again, if someone is raised in a society where everyone has and practices a religion, it's very difficult to consider him an atheist; it's like they don't have the mental categories to imagine a world with no gods, though they can be angry at them sometimes or question their existence. For those interested in the subject, I would recommend this classic by Lucien Febvre, The Problem of Unbelief in the Sixteenth Century: The Religion of Rabelais. It's hard to read at first, but his interpretation is so interesting you manage to finish the book in no time ^.~

Edit:



This doesn't mean much - how many atheists use a religious exclamation once in a while, just because they were brought up listening to people use them, in our world? the only example I can give in English is the basic "Oh my god", that the atheists in our generation translated to OMFG, but it's still a valid point

This sounds very interesting.  Reminds me of something from The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy:  "...they cannot be unhappy, because they just don´t have a word for it."

Rabelais couldn´t deny the existence of god because he didn´t have the words for it?

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Lady Octarina, on 06 February 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

This doesn't mean much - how many atheists use a religious exclamation once in a while, just because they were brought up listening to people use them, in our world? the only example I can give in English is the basic "Oh my god", that the atheists in our generation translated to OMFG, but it's still a valid point

Jesus Christ I dont do that! Just god damn you to hell!

[Lady Octarina]

Lykos, on 06 February 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

This sounds very interesting.  Reminds me of something from The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy:  "...they cannot be unhappy, because they just don´t have a word for it."

Rabelais couldn´t deny the existence of god because he didn´t have the words for it?

The concept, yes. Febvre explains it much better than me, but it's basically the idea that, if God didn't create Man, Nature, the World, who did? They didn't have our notions of the Big Bang, evolution, etc, so God was all the explanation they could have. Without it, they'd be too lost.

[Lykos]

you already got me hooked.

[Fearsome Fred]

Lykos, on 06 February 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

No offence intended, there are many who think that, if you do not believe in god you are an atheist.

That is, in fact, one of the definitions of "atheist".  It may well be the widest and most common definition.

It is not less correct than the other.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Fearsome Fred, on 06 February 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

That is, in fact, one of the definitions of "atheist".  It may well be the widest and most common definition.

It is not less correct than the other.

lol what? thats the only definition.
http://dictionary.re.../browse/atheist

[Fearsome Fred]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 06 February 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

lol what? thats the only definition.
http://dictionary.re.../browse/atheist

Did you even read what your "only" definition said?

"... denies OR disbelieves ... ".

[Gingerly Grumkin]

which are synonyms...
e.t.a Even if the internet thesaurus disagrees (hey another synonym lol)

Edited by Ndrew of Typhgarian, 06 February 2012 - 05:36 PM.

[The Slayer]

Not a believer in the real world, but if I was in Westeros and witnessed the power of R'hllor I'd be a follower of the Lord of Light.

[Fearsome Fred]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 06 February 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

which are synonyms...

[Shrug]  If you like.  But earlier in this thread, it was argued that "atheist" are deniers, and not merely disbelievers (sometimes called "agnostics").

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Well Agnostics are not sure, how could we be? But Atheists are, well, they kind of force the "religion" of a lack of god on to you. But whatever. bugger atheists, bugger belivers, bugger you. (Sorry, been reading way to much ASOIAF, {who can relate lol})

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I am an atheist now and I would probably be an atheist in Westeros unless I knew what I know now about Westeros by reading the books. And in the ASOIAF world I don't know if there are Gods or not but there is magic and  some kind of powers do exist. Now whether those are Gods or not I dunno but priests of Gods can have real power and can see in fire real visions.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 06 February 2012 - 05:54 PM.

[Fearsome Fred]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 06 February 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

Well Agnostics are not sure, how could we be? But Atheists are, well, they kind of force the "religion" of a lack of god on to you.

Wow!  These definitions keep changing all the time.