Issue with the "three heads of the dragon"

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

While reading the other thread asking if Aegon could be the "third head of the dragon," something struck me.

I think it's a fairly reasonable assumption that Rhaegar, when he was interpreting the PTWP prophecy, had Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya in mind. The three-headed dragon is the Targaryen family sigil and he named two of his children after two of the three conquerors. There's an idea that he was expecting his third child to be a girl, a Visenya.

But what do the three conquerors have to do with this prophecy? Is Rhaegar jumping to conclusions or seeing links where there are none, or was there something in the prophecy — the full extent of which we probably don't know yet, to be fair — to support his reading it that way?

The reason I ask is that the Targaryens took the three-headed dragon as their Westerosi sigil after the Conquering. And I suspect that this prophecy is much, much older than that. So is Rhaegar using a 300-year-old event/sigil to explain or interpret a prophecy that could very well be thousands of years old, not hundreds?

I also think that the three dragon-riders don't necessarily have to be the same as the "three heads of the dragon." It's one dragon with three heads, not three dragons with three riders. So Martin could, in theory, answer questions about possible dragon-riders, without those riders having to be "one of the three heads." Readers might interpret it that way — if Tyrion rides a dragon, he's one of the three heads — but I'm not sure the wording says what people think it says.

The more I think about this, the more I like the idea that it's one person (one dragon), with three different heads, i.e. three different aspects or identities. I volunteered the possibilities that these three aspects could be Dany being queen of Westeros, Slaver's Bay and Essos, or Jon being a Stark, a Targ and a Night's Watch man. You get the idea.

Mostly though it nags me that people are using Rhaegar's interpretation of the "three heads of the dragon" when it appears that his reading of the prophecy ties into something that happened probably a long, long, long time after the prophecy originated.

[Sevumar]

But what do the three conquerors have to do with this prophecy? Is Rhaegar jumping to conclusions or seeing links where there are none, or was there something in the prophecy — the full extent of which we probably don't know yet, to be fair — to support his reading it that way?

This is one of those issues that makes me wish we had more knowledge about the content of the Prince who was Promised prophecy. Basically, we have two pieces of information: someone once made a promise concerning a prince/princess and somehow both Rhaegar and Aemon have connected this with the "dragon has three heads" theme. I wish we knew on what basis this last bit about the three heads was appended.

I've brought this up in other threads, but it seems from the conclusion of the conquest until the time of Aemon and Rhaegar, nobody in House Targaryen seemed to give a care about the three-headedness of the dragon. We have various people claiming to be "the dragon" and invoking dragon imagery to explain everything from their bouts of temper to their supposed hidden natures, but nothing really recalling the three head aspect.

The reason I ask is that the Targaryens took the three-headed dragon as their Westerosi sigil after the Conquering. And I suspect that this prophecy is much, much older than that. So is Rhaegar using a 300-year-old event/sigil to explain or interpret a prophecy that could very well be thousands of years old, not hundreds?

There's a chance it's related to what we're told about the visions of Aenar Targaryen's daughter in Signs and Portents. There's no conclusive evidence that this is the subject of one of her prophecies, but it's worth considering. Other than the general dragon dreams that may or may not have prophetic significance, the PwwP seems to be the only specific prophecy in House Targaryen's collective awareness.

I also think that the three dragon-riders don't necessarily have to be the same as the "three heads of the dragon" It's one dragon with three heads, not three dragons with three riders. So Martin could, in theory, answer questions about possible dragon-riders, without those riders having to be "one of the three heads." Readers might interpret it that way — if Tyrion rides a dragon, so he's one of the three heads — but I'm not sure the wording says what people think it says.

Illyrio's statement to Tyrion seems to support this interpretation. When he first reveals his association with Dany to Tyrion, he speaks of her as "a dragon with three heads."

I think it's interesting that all of the characters in the present timeline who spend any time thinking about this automatically come to the conlcusion that the three-headed dragon finds expression in three individuals. The fact that there are three dragons tends to fit nicely with it. Along with that, we have Martin's statement that all three of the heads needn't be Targaryens. With all this stuff floating around, it's fairly easy to see why most people would assume three heads = three people = three riders of three dragons.

The more I think about this, the more I like the idea that it's one person (one dragon), with three different heads, i.e. three different aspects or identities. I volunteered the possibilities that these three aspects could be Dany being queen of Westeros, Slaver's Bay and Essos, or Jon being a Stark, a Targ and a Night's Watch man. You get the idea.

Here's hoping that Dany ends up not being queen of anything, much less territories on both continents.

[dansnow]

Also if he was naming he's children after the original aegon and sisters why would he have named Jon "Jon", rather than a male equivalent to visenya, not that I doubt r+l=j but kind of interesting.

[Winter's Lady]

Very interesting topic!

That always irked me too, that everybody assumed it had to be three people. The three riders I get, but after all the dragon has only one body, and three heads. I think this could refer to one person with three different...uh...personalities, for lack of a better word.

Thinking about it, only Jon seems to fit right now. He is the leader of the NW, the closest thing we have to a king beyond the wall ( the wildlings wee prepared to follow him to winterfell), and probably the heir to the iron throne (assuming R+L=J and Aegon is fake). Three "kings" in one person, so to speak.

I'll think of other candidates later, but thats what came to my mind first!

Oh and do we know what the Targs had as a sigil before the conquest? did they have a sigil? I forgot...

Rhaegar probably interpreted the prophecy like he wanted to at that time, much like we folks do around here all the time.

[Winter's Lady]

Also if he was naming he's children after the original aegon and sisters why would he have named Jon "Jon", rather than a male equivalent to visenya, not that I doubt r+l=j but kind of interesting.

Well, we can't be sure that that was the name he intended, right? Maybe he had a different name in mind, but Ned decided to rename him for better protection (to give no spoilers, hehe).

[dansnow]

Sorry I'm new and I'm not sure on the rules involving spoilers or how to use spoiler tags. Your point on ned makes a lot of sense though, thanks!

[Sevumar]

Well, we can't be sure that that was the name he intended, right? Maybe he had a different name, but Ned decided to rename him for better protection (to give no spoilers, hehe).

I think that if Jon has a Targaryen name, it's either Daeron (this may have been hinted by Jon's fascination with the Young Dragon who conquered Dorne and died around the age of 17-18) or Jaehaerys. That's if Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't name him just Jon out of respect for Jon Connington (similar to the way Aegon V named his first son Dunk after his good friend).

Speaking of Daeron I's death, that's right about the age Jon is at the end of ADWD when the unfortunate stabby incident happens.

[Winter's Lady]

Sorry I'm new and I'm not sure on the rules involving spoilers or how to use spoiler tags. Your point on ned makes a lot of sense though, thanks!

huh, no I didn't mean you gave any spoilers XD

I was just being silly and saying he tried to avoid giving anybody a hint (a spoiler) on who Jon really was...ok maybe that just makes sense in my own head...sorry for confusing you

oh and for the record:

[ spoiler ] spoilery content [ /spoiler ] just leave out the spaces within the brackets

[jarl the climber]

I'll say this in Rhaegars defense, he had been studying these prophecies his whole life it seems and probaly had a lot of family lore we don't know about but from what Aemon says that doesn't mean he couldn't have been wrong. I tend to agree though that each of the riders will have 3 facets to thier persona. Using Jon as an example it would be his wolfs blood, dragons blood, and his own persona as a man. It would be interesting to know what trait the Targaryeans were trying to preserve by inbreeding, they later intermarried with the Martells but that was after the dragons they had died off. Its hard to say anymore than this til we know more about dragons and some of these prophecies.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Reading all those Targ names I'm happy that Ned named him Jon :D

Apple Martini, I just have to :bowdown: let me tell you that you're freaking good with theories. I like this one, cause I really dislike that "3 heads 3 riders" theory. I had myself a theory (yes, a bit absurd) about the 3 heads being the dragon itself, the rider and a warg ("warging" the dragon, obviously :P ) but yours, makes much more sense since I'm pretty convinced that when a prophecy talks about dragons means Targs and not real dragons.So, Jon: Snow, Stark and Targaryen, a dragon with 3 "heads" just saying ^_^

[Winter's Lady]

So I thought a bit more on who the dragon could be, and going with my Jon - three "king" personalities, dany also has three "queen"personalities: queen of Meereen, khaleesi of the dothraki (well, she was and may be again in her own right) and queen of Westeros. I know that's really weak right now, but it's just a little experiment of thought, and it kinda works.

*going to bed now, need sleep, brain works funky...

[Lykos]

Very good topic.

I always catch myself thinking the TPtwP must be one of the three heads of the dragon, but it´s only Rhaegar making this connection.

Then I tell myself he thought that he would be TPtwP when Daenerys wasn´t even born.

The only ones telling "us" Dany about the three heads are the

Undying

.

[Sevumar]

Just for fun, I've made a list of the references to the "three heads of the dragon" excluding descriptions of the Targaryen family sigil as represented on banners/Rhaegar's breastplate, etc.

And the Tourmaline Brotherhood pressed on [Dany] a crown wrought in the shape of a three-headed dragon; the coils were yellow gold, the wings silver, the heads carved from jade, ivory, and onyx.

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

“I have come for the gift of truth,” Dany said. “In the long hall, the things I saw . . . were they true visions, or lies? Past things, or things to come? What did they mean?”

…the shape of shadows . . . morrows not yet made . . . drink from the cup of ice . . . drink from the cup of fire . . . mother of dragons . . . child of three . . .

‘Three?” She did not understand.

… three heads has the dragon . . . the ghost chorus yammered inside her skull with never a lip moving, never a breath stirring the still blue air. . . . mother of dragons . . . child of storm . . . The whispers became a swirling song. . . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . . Her own heart was beating in unison to the one that floated before her, blue and corrupt . . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . . The voices were growing louder, she realized, and it seemed her heart was slowing, and even her breath. . . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

“The dragon has three heads,” she sighed. “Do you know what that means, Jorah?”

“Your Grace? The sigil of House Targaryen is a three-headed dragon, red on black.”

“I know that. But there are no three-headed dragons.”

“The three heads were Aegon and his sisters.”

“Visenya and Rhaenys,” she recalled. “I am descended from Aegon and Rhaenys through their son Aenys and their grandson Jaehaerys.”

“Blue lips speak only lies, isn’t that what Xaro told you? Why do you care what the warlocks whispered? All they wanted was to suck the life from you, you know that now.”

“Perhaps,” she said reluctantly. “Yet the things I saw-”

“A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood . . . what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? A mummer’s dragon, you said. What is a mummer’s dragon, pray?”

“A cloth dragon on poles,” Dany explained. “Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight.”

Ser Jorah frowned.

Dany could not let it go. “His is the song of ice and fire, my brother said. I’m certain it was my brother. Not Viserys, Rhaegar. He had a harp with silver strings.”

Ser Jorah’s frown deepened until his eyebrows came together. “Prince Rhaegar played such a harp,” he conceded. “You saw him?”

She nodded. “There was a woman in a bed with a babe at her breast. My brother said the babe was the prince that was promised and told her to name him Aegon.”

“Prince Aegon was Rhaegar’s heir by Elia of Dorne,” Ser Jorah said. “But if he was this prince that was promised, the promise was broken along with his skull when the Lannisters dashed his head against a wall.”

“I remember,” Dany said sadly. “They murdered Rhaegar’s daughter as well, the little princess. Rhaenys, she was named, like Aegon’s sister. There was no Visenya, but he said the dragon has three heads. What is the song of ice and fire?”

“It’s no song I’ve ever heard.”

“Belwas has the truth of us, Your Grace,” said Arstan. “We were told to find you and bring you back to Pentos. The Seven Kingdoms have need of you. Robert the Usurper is dead, and the realm bleeds. When we set sail from Pentos there were four kings in the land, and no justice to be had.”

Joy bloomed in her heart, but Dany kept it from her face. “I have three dragons,” she said, “and more than a hundred in my khalasar, with all their goods and horses.”

“It is no matter,” boomed Belwas. “We take all. The fat man hires three ships for his little silverhair queen.”

“It is so, Your Grace,” Arstan Whitebeard said. “The great cog Saduleon is berthed at the end of the quay, and the galleys Summer Sun and foso’s Prank are anchored beyond the breakwater.”

Three heads has the dragon, Dany thought, wondering. “I shall tell my people to make ready to depart at once. But the ships that bring me home must bear different names.”

“As you wish,” said Arstan. “What names would you prefer?”

“Vhagar, “ Daenerys told him. “Meraxes. And Balerion. Paint the names on their hulls in golden letters three feet high, Arstan. I want every man who sees them to know the dragons are returned.”

“My queen,” [Jorah] said, “and the bravest, sweetest, and most beautiful woman I have ever seen. Daenerys -

“Your Grace!”

“Your Grace,” he conceded, “the dragon has three heads, remember? You have wondered at that, ever since you heard it from the warlocks in the House of Dust. Well, here’s your meaning: Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar, ridden by Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya. The three-headed dragon of House Targaryen - three dragons, and three riders.”

“Yes,” said Dany, “but my brothers are dead.”

“Rhaenys and Visenya were Aegon’s wives as well as his sisters. You have no brothers, but you can take husbands. And I tell you truly, Daenerys, there is no man in all the world who will ever be half so true to you as me.”

“No doubt he will,” said Lord Tywin. “All the same, you must be crowned at the king’s wedding. Cersei, summon your goldsmiths, we must see to a replacement.” He did not wait for her reply, but turned at once to Varys. “You have reports?”

The eunuch drew a parchment from his sleeve. “A kraken has been seen off the Fingers.” He giggled. “Not a Greyjoy, mind you, a true kraken. It attacked an Ibbenese whaler and pulled it under. There is fighting on the Stepstones, and a new war between Tyrosh and Lys seems likely. Both hope to win Myr as ally. Sailors back from the jade Sea report that a three-headed dragon has hatched in Qarth, and is the wonder of that city - “

“Dragons and krakens do not interest me, regardless of the number of their heads,” said Lord Tywin. “Have your whisperers perchance found some trace of my brother’s son?”

Dany definitely seems vested in three dragons for three heads of the dragon, and the number three is often related to her in a number of different ways. She's called the child of three, and her visions in later part of the House of the Undying are delivered in three groups of three.

[Sevumar]

This turned out to be a huge post, so I'm splitting it into two pieces.

In looking at these quotes and putting them together, I think it's clear that Dany starts the story with little or no awareness of the three-headed dragon theme. She does mention once that Viserys told her that Rhaegar was trying to assemble the three heads of the dragon through his own children, but there was no Visenya.

As we see the story go on, we get the sense that Dany's thoughts about the three-headed dragon start at the origins of her House's symbol, moves toward fulfilling the role herself, and toward the two other heads being her husbands, whom she assumes to be two other dragon riders.

What really jumped out at me was the way that House Targaryen's "allies" Varys and Illyrio refer to the three-headed dragon, they always characterize it as one entity, and usually as Daenerys. There seems to be no attempt to include Aegon in this description or to associate him with the theme of the three heads of the dragon. Perhaps this reflects their plans, or some knowledge they hold about his "eligibility" for dragonhood.

When Brown Ben left, she lay back on her cushions. “If you were grown,” she told Drogon, scratching him between the horns, “I’d fly you over the walls and melt that harpy down to slag.” But it would be years before her dragons were large enough to ride. And when they are, who shall ride them?

The dragon has three heads, but I have only one. She thought of Daario.

The dragon has three heads. There are two men in the world who I can trust, if I can flnd them. I will not be alone then. We will be three against the world, like Aegon and his sisters.

The Sphinx looks slight, but there’s strength in those slim arms, [Pate] reflected, as Alleras threw a leg across the bench and reached for his wine cup. “The dragon has three heads,” he announced in his soft Dornish drawl.

“Is this a riddle?” Roone wanted to know. “Sphinxes always speak in riddles in the tales.”

“No riddle.” Alleras sipped his wine. The rest of them were quaffing tankards of the fearsomely strong cider that the Quill and Tankard was renowned for, but he preferred the strange, sweet wines of his mother’s country. Even in Oldtown such wines did not come cheap.

It had been Lazy Leo who dubbed Alleras “the Sphinx.” A sphinx is a bit of this, a bit of that: a human face, the body of a lion, the wings of a hawk. Alleras was the same: his father was a Dornishman, his mother a black-skinned Summer Islander. His own skin was dark as teak. And like the green marble sphinxes that flanked the Citadel’s main gate, Alleras had eyes of onyx.

“No dragon has ever had three heads except on shields and banners,” Armen the Acolyte said firmly. “That was a heraldic charge, no more. Furthermore, the Targaryens are all dead.”

“Not all,” said Alleras. “The Beggar King had a sister.”

Interestingly, the Citadel sphinxes (different from the Valyrian sphinxes) are described as having body parts of three different creatures. If Alleras = Sarella as seems fairly likely, the Sand Snakes all have a bit of dragon blood themselves, in the same quantity as their cousin Quentyn.

That had been one of his last good days. After that the old man spent more time sleeping than awake, curled up beneath a pile of furs in the captain’s cabin. Sometimes he would mutter in his sleep. When he woke he’d call for Sam, insisting that he had to tell him something, but oft as not he would have forgotten what he meant to say by the time that Sam arrived. Even when he did recall, his talk was all a jumble. He spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer, of a glass candle that could not be lit and eggs that would not hatch. He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant. He asked Sam to read for him from a book by Septon Barth, whose writings had been burned during the reign of Baelor the Blessed. Once he woke up weeping. “The dragon must have three heads,” he wailed, “but I am too old and frail to be one of them. I should be with her, showing her the way, but my body has betrayed me.”

“Are your Seven Kingdoms so different? There is no peace in Westeros, no justice, no faith … and soon enough, no food. When men are starving and sick of fear, they look for a savior.”

“They may look, but if all they find is Stannis—”

“Not Stannis. Nor Myrcella.” The yellow smile widened. “Another. Stronger than Tommen, gentler than Stannis, with a better claim than the girl Myrcella. A savior come from across the sea to bind up the wounds of bleeding Westeros.”

“Fine words.” Tyrion was unimpressed. “Words are wind. Who is this bloody savior?”

“A dragon.” The cheesemonger saw the look on his face at that, and laughed. “A dragon with three heads.”

A pair of Unsullied went down the steps before them, bearing torches; behind came two Brazen Beasts, one masked as a fish, the other as a hawk. Even here in her own pyramid, on this happy night of peace and celebration, Ser Barristan insisted on keeping guards about her everywhere she went. The small company made the long descent in silence, stopping thrice to refresh themselves along the way. “The dragon has three heads,” Dany said when they were on the final flight. “My marriage need not be the end of all your hopes. I know why you are here.”

[Lykos]

This is all mostlyTargaryen history/mythology.

Dany doesn´t seem aware of the legend of Azor Ahai yet. Why didn´t she ask about: the SoIaF in the house of the Undying, I wonder.

What did Rhaegar read, when he changed to become a fighter/ started to believe he was TPtwP.

(Did he just engage with Lyanna to sire the 3. head - or - did he justify his love for her with the necessity for a 3 headed dragon.)

I think the lost books that Baelor destroyed, mentioned by Tyrion when recollecting his knowledge of dragons on the Shy Maid are a good possibility.

[Ashen Shugar]

"I also think that the three dragon-riders don't necessarily have to be the same as the "three heads of the dragon" It's one dragon with three heads, not three dragons with three riders. So Martin could, in theory, answer questions about possible dragon-riders, without those riders having to be "one of the three heads." Readers might interpret it that way — if Tyrion rides a dragon, he's one of the three heads — but I'm not sure the wording says what people think it says."

I always thought the sigil represented Aegon and his 2 sisters aswell as their dragons. Each of the heads representing one of them and one of their dragons, hence 3 dragons with 3 riders.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Also if he was naming he's children after the original aegon and sisters why would he have named Jon "Jon", rather than a male equivalent to visenya, not that I doubt r+l=j but kind of interesting.

Rhaegar didn't name Jon, Ned did.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Here's hoping that Dany ends up not being queen of anything, much less territories on both continents.

Amen. I really only include her because it'd be petty not to and enough people still think she'll end up doing something of consequence.

I also don't think that "dragons" specifically means a literal dragon. I take the D&E approach — a dragon is a Targaryen. So in this reading, the actual existence of dragons is incidental/lateral and not tied into the prophecy directly.

I always thought the sigil represented Aegon and his 2 sisters aswell as their dragons. Each of the heads representing one of them and one of their dragons, hence 3 dragons with 3 riders.

Yes that's what it represents. My point is that this sigil in all likelihood is much, much newer than the prophecy, so it doesn't make sense to me that Rhaegar is using it to interpret/explain the prophecy. The prophecy would have been from way before Aegon landed with his sisters, so why is Rhaegar using them as a "blueprint"?

Also if he was naming he's children after the original aegon and sisters why would he have named Jon "Jon", rather than a male equivalent to visenya, not that I doubt r+l=j but kind of interesting.

Ned named Jon, probably after Jon Arryn.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Reading all those Targ names I'm happy that Ned named him Jon :D

Apple Martini, I just have to :bowdown: let me tell you that you're freaking good with theories. I like this one, cause I really dislike that "3 heads 3 riders" theory. I had myself a theory (yes, a bit absurd) about the 3 heads being the dragon itself, the rider and a warg ("warging" the dragon, obviously :P ) but yours, makes much more sense since I'm pretty convinced that when a prophecy talks about dragons means Targs and not real dragons.So, Jon: Snow, Stark and Targaryen, a dragon with 3 "heads" just saying ^_^

Thank you. :D

I'll also point out that if Martin wanted to be cheeky, he could say that "not all of the heads have to be Targaryen," and still fit within my theory. If one head is a Stark and one is the Night's Watch, then "not every head would be a Targaryen." B)

[WhiteWolf26]

I think theres some connection between Daerons dream of Baelor Breakspear as a dragon in the Hedge Knight and Dameon II Blackfyre (john the fiddler) dreaming of a dragon being born at the tourney in the Mystery Knight(the rise of Egg as a Targ according to Bloodraven) and the dream of a dragon rising from the cyrpts of Winterfell. (and I believe Egg was told of a dragon being born at Summerhall on the day of Rhaegars birth) Maybe for the Targs to be at full strength in their ability to control dragons/magic there must be three Targs(dragons) that come together and unite their powers. So some Targs (Baelor, Egg, Rhaegar, Dany, Jon?) have the potential to "awake" te dragon inside them whilst some Targs (Aerion Brightflame, Viserys) believe they are dragons but are not. Aemon mentions how he wishes he was younger so he could go to Dany and be one of these dragons. Just a theory..