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…the shape of shadows . . . morrows not yet made . . . drink from the cup of ice . . . drink from the cup of fire . . . mother of dragons . . . child of three . . .

The 'child of three' quote seems to have something to do with the dragon riders. In the Ice Dragon novel, Adara who is the third child could ride the ice dragon.

Another similarity is that Adara's mother died during child birth. Dany's mother Rhaella also died during child birth. Dany can ride her dragon.

Lyanna also (likely) died during child birth - which could mean that Jon Snow could tame a dragon.

But Aegon the Conqueror & both his sisters could ride their dragons too. (We don't know if Aegon I's mother died giving birth to Rhaenys).

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…the shape of shadows . . . morrows not yet made . . . drink from the cup of ice . . . drink from the cup of fire . . . mother of dragons . . . child of three . . .

The 'child of three' quote seems to have something to do with the dragon riders. In the Ice Dragon novel, Adara who is the third child could ride the ice dragon.

Another similarity is that Adara's mother died during child birth. Dany's mother Rhaella also died during child birth. Dany can ride her dragon.

That can also be applied to Jon as well as he is the third of Rhaegar and his mother died as a result of childbirth.

But I think it's ultimately Jon because I think that Dany is too obvious to be AAR/TPTWP and that's she's the red herring to cover up Jon.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I think that if Jon has a Targaryen name, it's either Daeron (this may have been hinted by Jon's fascination with the Young Dragon who conquered Dorne and died around the age of 17-18) or Jaehaerys. That's if Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't name him just Jon out of respect for Jon Connington (similar to the way Aegon V named his first son Dunk after his good friend).

Speaking of Daeron I's death, that's right about the age Jon is at the end of ADWD when the unfortunate stabby incident happens.

daeron is a good name for jon :D
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That can also be applied to Jon as well as he is the third of Rhaegar and his mother died as a result of childbirth.

But I think it's ultimately Jon because I think that Dany is too obvious to be AAR/TPTWP and that's she's the red herring to cover up Jon.

Not just that; Jon, while being the biological child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, is the social son of Eddard Stark: a child of three parents.

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  • 1 month later...

Don't worry about the time. I like to take time to compose my thoughts before responding, so no problem.

As far as your observation that the THofD appears to be a uniquely Rhaegar and Aemon interpretation, I would have to agree. The only other reference I found was one by Illyrio, which is categorized as green in my system because we are never told in the story that Illyrio is in anyway associated with the prophecies. As I suspect that Illyrio received his information from Varys, there is no clear indication that this interpretation is used by anyone other than Rhaegar or Aemon. As “the dragon” was mistranslated as “the prince”, I think the PtwP and AA prophecies became conflated. I am no longer so certain that the two prophecies speak of the exact same thing, although I do think they are related. While AA could be (and I think is) one of the heads of the dragon, I don't think this individual is the central figure with two sidekicks. Instead, I think each head of the dragon is unique and essential in their own right. The original mistranslation and conflation with the AA prophecy is what makes the one person with three aspects interpretation possible. At the time I made my original post I thought that the dragon being three people coming together was the most unlikely scenario, I now suspect that it may be the case.

If your thinking that the songs of the CotF are associated with the THotD is venturing into crackpot territory, then I am wandering there too. If the CotF dying out means they have to find human replacements for their greenseers (BR & Bran), then they may also need to find humans who can sing certain songs that need to be sung. This idea occurred to me when I read this passage (which I either overlooked before or had forgotten) from AGOT-Daenerys POV III:

Perhaps it is because I was looking at passages about dragons and how they might relate to the THotD and the song of ice and fire (as stated previously the only thing I think we are directly told about THotD), that this passage stuck out this time. We have been told that when a Targaryen dreams of dragons that those dragons represent a Targaryen and not a dragon (this is not always true, but true often enough that we should look for such an interpretation first). I had interpreted this passage as Drogon “calling” out to Dany, but this time I wondered about the song the dragon was singing and who the dragon represented. Since there are so few images in this dream, I think we must interpret the dragon's song as being one of “fire and blood”. And after considering the limited possibilities (Jon, Aegon, Drogon or Dany), I think the dragon represents Dany herself. After having this dream Dany becomes stronger and more determined. I am inclined to interpret this event as one of the heads of the dragon awakening. So, if we have a “song of ice and fire” and a “song of fire and blood” there are two songs of the three heads identified.

This, of course, made me think of Jon's dream at the beginning of his next to last chapter in ADWD. In that dream, Jon is wearing armor made of black ice and using a flaming sword. These are the elements that would be in a song of ice and fire, but does that dream represent the awakening of one of the heads of the dragon? There are no dragons or singing in that dream, but does there need to be? Also, I have re-read Jon's last three chapters in ADWD to see if I could detect any sign that he has been “awakened”, but I'm not really sure what to conclude about that. What do you think?

I than began thinking about what the third song was and I thought of Jaime's dream when he slept on the weirwood stump. This dream also contained the image of fire, in fact a flaming sword. However, Jaime's sword appeared to be more about light rather than heat. If I were to say this dream represented a song, I would say a song of fire and shadow. While claiming this dream to be an awakening dream may be a stretch (there is no dragon or singing in it either), Jaime does seem to be a changed man after this dream. He insists shortly after awakening that they return for Brienne and he begins to ruminate about what legacy he will leave behind. This was only the first dream that occurred to me, I will probably have to go back and read about other dreams to see if there are some that fit better. Also, it was Jaime's act that set Bran on the path to the CotF, so maybe Jaime maybe more connected to the old gods than we understand.

So, anyhow, I do think the THotD does have some connection to the CotF and their songs, including Meera and Jojen's oath to Bran, but I'm just beginning to put some of it together. I should say that I read a post on the forums that suggested Daenys' dream had been sent to her from a greenseer just like Bran's dreams had come to him. This has influenced me greatly. I've come to think that what makes the Targaryens special (and despite how hated they are by some on the forums, they are special), is that they can hear the song of the CotF singers. I know they are not first men or associated with the old gods, but I think they can hear them just the same. Perhaps it is hearing the songs that makes some of them crazy.

love it. a question ... we are constantly reminded of Rhaegar's masterful singing and harping; what do you think of that? was he trying to sing something to life, to be? (apparently, the harp is often seen as representing communication with the divine; also, as a symbol of love).

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  • 4 months later...

I'd like to give my personal theory on the prophecies.

I think the legend of the Last Hero, Azor Ahai, The prince that was promised, (possibly the stallion that mounts the world) are all the same legend, changed over the thousands of years. I think that the wall and the nights watch represents lightbringer, (I am the light that brings the dawn the fire that burns against the cold the sword in the darkness the horn that wakes the sleepers.....) And that the original tptwp aa last hero or (possibly tstmtw) was Brandon the builder and or the first lord commander of the nights watch. I also feel that the approching 1000th lord commander will be the next "last hero." It seems that the "last hero" story is likely the most accurate story, old nan knows her shit. And since it is about the long night the north of westeros is the closest to the wall. The prince that was promised legend seems to be of Valyrian origin, that is why it involves dragons. The Azor Ahai legend is from the followers of r'hllor the fire god. The stallion from the horselord dothraki. Now onto the many many many 3s.

Ready? lightbringer took 3 attempts to forge, the dragon has 3 heads, dany has 3 dragons, dany tyrion and jon are all the 3rd child by their father and all 3 had their mothers die giving birth to them (if r+l=j). All 3 spent time with "savages" wildlings dothraki mountain clans, all 3 fit "smoke and salt" dany from her birth, tyrion when he has a near death experience on the bridge of ships in battle of kings landing, jon when bowen marsh's tears mixed with his smoking wound. Add to this the millions of 3's in dany's visions.

The things that I am having doubts about are from the aa version, probably the most dilluted. Dany has awoken stone dragons in a way. Jon may be about to wake THE stone dragon if he is burned. And yes they'll burn him, the nights watch burns their dead, doesn't matter if no one knows his blood. But tyrion as far as I know doesnt fit this part. Unless the cyvasse board counts lol.

I think that dany jon and tyrion together form aa, tptwp, the stallion, the last hero. dragon riders also.

A couple other nigglig issues are Brans involvment. He has the name (if it was brandon the builder) I believe he also has brandon the builders sword from winterfells crypts (need confirmation) The sphinx and young griff are the other 2 issues. lol 3 issues?

Would love to hear everyones thoughts and have help filling gaps. This is the theory that I most strongly believe. Some others are that jon himself is lightbringer, that rhaegar was aa, lyanna nissa nissa, since it took 3 forges. Or that longclaw is lightbringer, and him dany and tyrion are still the heads. Also could aa tprince and the last hero be 3 different people. the one that bugs me there is the stallion.

Anyway, I am anxiously awaiting Sam learning more about this in the citadel, and to see what happens with jon. But in any case I think we need to stop looking at aa and the prince as our primary theories. Old Nan knows her shit, The Last Hero needs more looking into instead!


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Agreed. I also don't think that Jon is Rhaegar's son. If he is even part Targaryen, he would look like one somehow, but he has all the features of the North. None of Rhaegar's kids look like Elia of Dorne, and he, like Arya, resembles Ned. He's a Stark people. But he wouldn't be the third head anyway. He took vows, and he means to keep them, assuming he wasn't stabbed to death.

Jon's Stark genes are more dominant than his Targ genes.

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Actually we are told in the book that Rhaenys was the spitting image of Elia of Dorne. Only baby aegon looked targ. Jon looks start because of lyanna......
Besides don't you think if jon had silver hair and purple eyes people might be like, um ned, your bastards obviously a targ at first glance?

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