404 replies to this topic

[David C. Simmons]

This isn't a bashing of Dany, but it's mainly for the Dany fans because I know a lot of people like her but i wanted to give articulate reasons to why I and others do not.

Look I dont like Dany, that doesnt mean I have a low IQ. Dany is a brilliant character who has been through alot and accomplished alot and has a strong will to survive and I love the scene where she takes the unsullied and screams dracarys!! I respect the writing of her character. However I am not a Dany fan. If she wanted to be anything other then queen I would like her. If she rather stay in Essos I would like her. Its not her the person I dislike, its her attitude. She is a caring person but she is not humble in the slightest. She's extremely arrogant at times and extremely narrowminded. I have no problem with dany hooking up with Daario. I never cared about that. I actually like Daario as a character. I never once thought she was a whore.

It just that for me.....when I read about all the sufferring in westeros. The red wedding, ned stark's beheading, all the homeless people walking the roads, watching what has become of catelyn stark, watching how tyrion tries his best to save a kingdom only for them to falsely prosecute him, watching stannis do everything in his power to unite the realm, davos losing four of his sons, bran trecking north of the wall while jojen is slowly dying, brienne going through hell to find sansa...I get attached to these stories....Then I read about dany.....and she pisses me off in many ways.

Dany doesn't fight. She can't fight. She isn't on the battlefield like Jon Snow or Robb Stark or Stannis or Tyrion or anybody. She sits in her comfortable room and waits for the battle to be over. Hell even Joffrey was in the battle of blackwater, somewhat. You lose respect for leaders when they arent in the battle. Especially in this type of book where strength and leadership is everything. Dany has a strong will but she will never lead an army into battle. And I think subconsciously many do not like her because of this. Because she isn't a fighter its hard for me to take her seriously when she acts like she will be the one conquering westeros. It also goes back to the old ways. Ned stark says the one who gives out the sentence must swing the sword. Its a very honorable thing to do. Its easy to get detached from war, battle or death if you've never been apart of it. It's easy to order someone's death when you have an executioner, but would it be just as easy for Dany to swing the sword? Mind you I understand she is not the only one like this.

She also has no knowledge of westeros or her people's history save what her brother told her. She doesnt see nor care to see that the lannisters and starks are completely different cultures. She falsely believes that Robert was trying to kill her her entire life. She said Ned stark died a traitors death even though everyone she knows who talks about ned stark seems to like the guy.(jorah doesnt count) She REFUSES to hear about her father or the real reason why robert rebelled. She realized her brother was an idiot yet she still firmly believes everything her brother ever said. This is not her fault, but she lacks the motivation to even try a different perspective.


She has been pampered and stayed in great palaces in every city she has been too. She conquered her cities because she burned them to the ground. She didnt win a battle. She has never been in a battle. It is extremely hard and borderline impossible to go from reading about how rob stark's head was removed and replaced with his wolf's head and about how catelyn watched her son die, her throat slit, body stripped and thrown in the river to reading about dany saying 'ned stark died a traitors death.'. All that does is make me pull for team green grace. I understand from her perspective she has a right to be mad, but dany never knew any targaryan. She wasnt even born when the rebellion took place. I used to be famous for saying 'you dont miss what you never had'. The house with the red door meant more to her then the targaryan dynasty. In alot of ways she acts and seems spoiled, hamming it up as the tragic heroine who lost her kingdom through tyranny and is trying to find her way home. I admire her courage at times but she doesn't have the knowledge to rule. To me she is like a teenage girl who read about kings and queens in books and tries to mock them to the best of her ability. This all seems like a game to her at times.



There are more reasons but Ima stop there. Its not just Dany though, I have a problem with the entire targaryan/valyrian culture.

[Phénix.]

no

[Apple Martini]

I'll take a different tack than I normally do and say that I don't think she's the sort of leader who will be beneficial to Westeros during the winter. This is aside from the fact that, from what I can tell, she has absolutely no experience in a wintry or even cold climate. She tells herself that dragons don't plant trees, but that's what Westeros needs — someone to heal the country, plan ahead for a harsh season and bring security, both political security and food/resources security. She's only brought death and destruction and plague and misery to Slaver's Bay, and Westeros has already had enough of that. She'll be arriving in a country wanting to kick ass and take names only to find out that everyone is sick of warfare and just wants it over, and will not be too keen on her if that's all she has to offer. She can't feed her own people in Slaver's Bay, she can't stop plague from spreading, she can't keep them from getting murdered and raped, she doesn't seem to have any economic plans to replace slavery (not that I'm saying slavery is acceptable), and she can't guarantee the security of cities after she leaves.

About the only commendable thing she's done in Slaver's Bay is make an attempt to free slaves. The problem with this is, she seems to see it as an end unto itself, not a means to an end. "OK, I freed you, you can go on your merry way now!" Not even realizing that these people have no way to feed themselves, nowhere to live and in many cases no way to earn a living now. A lot of the support she has in Slaver's Bay comes, reasonably enough, from the slaves whom she's freed.

But the Westerosi aren't slaves. She can't wave a magic wand and free them, because they're already free. She also can't rely on their adoration for freeing them, because they're already free. I think she'll expect them to say, "Thank you sir, may we have another" when she lands, because she's so used to getting that sort of reaction from non-slaving people and freed slaves in Slaver's Bay. But without her freeing them, why would the Westerosi give her adoration or fealty? I kind of expect her to be in for a rude awakening when she lands and finds that she's the answer to a question no one asked, and people aren't going to fall at her feet just because of who she is. She can roast and burn them into submission, but that doesn't make her a good ruler and it certainly won't make her loved.

This is all not even considering the fact that I'm pretty troubled by her choices of punishment and her willingness to torture people for information and what I consider to be budding paranoia. Even without the, I believe, very real danger of her edging into nutty brutality, I don't think that she would do that much good in Westeros, at least not during a winter.

Edited by Apple Martini, 06 February 2012 - 12:51 AM.

[FirstSwordofBraavos]

You've succintly summed up my very thoughts !! Excellent post !!!
Though I dislike Daario ( That guy's such a pain in the ass ), I have no problem with Dany sleeping with him. The problem starts when she starts to let her decisions be affected by their relationship !!

[Jem]

I don't usually get into the whole "I like X"..."I hate Y"...debates because, well, they are fairly pointless. It is too subjective, no one is going to win the argument. Besides which I don't actually "love" or "hate" any of the characters. But anyway, I am bored and it's been a slow day, so here goes...

Dany's arrogance doesn't bother me. Mainly because I am an extremely arrogant person myself. If I was a princess or a queen I would be completely insufferable, so I can hardly blame or dislike someone else for being exactly as I would be in that situation.

I don't have a problem with Dany not being actively invovled in the fighting part of a war. Most monarchs, and epecially queens, would not be. No big deal there.

The main problem I have with Dany is her lack of curiosity or interest in things that should be extremely important to her. Westeros. Her dead family. Her bloody dragons who urgently need taming. As a curious bod myself, I can't imagine not wanting to know these kind of things.

Rather than actually hating Dany in ADWD, I was just extremely frustrated by her and really wanted her to wake up to herself. That's it really.

[David C. Simmons]

A potential dragon ruling the kingdoms during possibly the longest winter ever doesn't make sense.

[FirstSwordofBraavos]

Apple Martini, on 06 February 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

About the only commendable thing she's done in Slaver's Bay is make an attempt to free slaves. The problem with this is, she seems to see it as an end unto itself, not a means to an end. "OK, I freed you, you can go on your merry way now!" Not even realizing that these people have no way to feed themselves, nowhere to live and in many cases no way to earn a living now. A lot of the support she has in Slaver's Bay comes, reasonably enough, from the slaves whom she's freed.

But the Westerosi aren't slaves. She can't wave a magic wand and free them, because they're already free. She also can't rely on their adoration for freeing them, because they're already free. I think she'll expect them to say, "Thank you sir, may we have another" when she lands, because she's so used to getting that sort of reaction from non-slaving people and freed slaves in Slaver's Bay. But without her freeing them, why would the Westerosi give her adoration or fealty? I kind of expect her to be in for a rude awakening when she lands and finds that she's the answer to a question no one asked, and people aren't going to fall at her feet just because of who she is. She can roast and burn them into submission, but that doesn't make her a good ruler and it certainly won't make her loved.

This is all not even considering the fact that I'm pretty troubled by her choices of punishment and her willingness to torture people for information and what I consider to be budding paranoia. Even without the, I believe, very real danger of her edging into nutty brutality, I don't think that she would do that much good in Westeros, at least not during a winter.

Agreed .

[David C. Simmons]

Jem, on 06 February 2012 - 12:52 AM, said:

I don't usually get into the whole "I like X"..."I hate Y"...debates because, well, they are fairly pointless. It is too subjective, no one is going to win the argument. Besides which I don't actually "love" or "hate" any of the characters. But anyway, I am bored and it's been a slow day, so here goes...

Dany's arrogance doesn't bother me. Mainly because I am an extremely arrogant person myself. If I was a princess or a queen I would be completely insufferable, so I can hardly blame or dislike someone else for being exactly as I would be in that situation.

I don't have a problem with Dany not being actively invovled in the fighting part of a war. Most monarchs, and epecially queens, would not be. No big deal there.

The main problem I have with Dany is her lack of curiosity or interest in things that should be extremely important to her. Westeros. Her dead family. Her bloody dragons who urgently need taming. As a curious bod myself, I can't imagine not wanting to know these kind of things.

Rather than actually hating Dany in ADWD, I was just extremely frustrated by her and really wanted her to wake up to herself. That's it really.

Im not trying to convince anyone of anything, I was just getting tired of everyone bashing everyone over this one character. I wanted to actually explain while i dislike dany, not to say 'im waiting for dany to die.' know what I mean? If you were a queen you would be insufferable?

[Lykos]

It always bothered me tha Dany is trying to learn how to rule by trial and error. I think she is learning though.

[Apple Martini]

David C. Simmons, on 06 February 2012 - 12:56 AM, said:

Im not trying to convince anyone of anything, I was just getting tired of everyone bashing everyone over this one character. I wanted to actually explain while i dislike dany, not to say 'im waiting for dany to die.' know what I mean? If you were a queen you would be insufferable?

Yes. I resent the implication that I'm dumb if I don't like Dany or, my personal favorite, that I'm in favor of slavery.

Lykos, on 06 February 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

It always bothered me tha Dany is trying to learn how to rule by trial and error. I think she is learning though.

The problem with learning by trial and error in her case is that if she makes a mistake, thousands of people die and an entire region is thrown into political and economic chaos. This isn't a case of burning the cookies because you put them in for 20 minutes instead of 15 and you need to adjust the time on the next batch.

[Jem]

David C. Simmons, on 06 February 2012 - 12:56 AM, said:

Im not trying to convince anyone of anything, I was just getting tired of everyone bashing everyone over this one character. I wanted to actually explain while i dislike dany, not to say 'im waiting for dany to die.' know what I mean? If you were a queen you would be insufferable?

Yeah, I know, and yours was a nicely considered argument, too. I was just explaining why I don't usually do these kinds of posts - because you can't win! What with my insufferable arrogance and all, I can't deal with not being able to score points.

[Jory]

I dislike her for different reasons. I also dislike writing really long posts, so here you go:

• everything that is in her power was not earned but was given to her, including, in my humble opinion, her penchant for insanity. the dragons are at the crux of this - she brought them back to life by walking into a fire and burning someone alive. not by sacrificing everything you've ever dreamed of so you can order around a bunch of rapists (Jon), not by refusing to give up even when you have only 5,000 sworn swords and a tiny fleet of pirate ships (Stannis). she used the dragons to get the Unsullied, unstoppable killers who never rout and never retreat. she used the Unsullied to get Mereen. it's like a domino effect of stupid. i literally forgot how the Iron Fleet, the best navy in Westeros, is currently sailing to help her. why? because she has dragons.
  
• she sucks and i hate her stupid dragons

[Lykos]

Apple Martini, on 06 February 2012 - 01:00 AM, said:

The problem with learning by trial and error in her case is that if she makes a mistake, thousands of people die and an entire region is thrown into political and economic chaos. This isn't a case of burning the cookies because you put them in for 20 minutes instead of 15 and you need to adjust the time on the next batch.

I agree, that´s what really bothered me. I´m still willing to give her a chance.

[David Selig]

David C. Simmons, on 06 February 2012 - 12:33 AM, said:

This isn't a bashing of Dany, but it's mainly for the Dany fans because I know a lot of people like her but i wanted to give articulate reasons to why I and others do not.

Look I dont like Dany, that doesnt mean I have a low IQ. Dany is a brilliant character who has been through alot and accomplished alot and has a strong will to survive and I love the scene where she takes the unsullied and screams dracarys!! I respect the writing of her character. However I am not a Dany fan. If she wanted to be anything other then queen I would like her. If she rather stay in Essos I would like her. Its not her the person I dislike, its her attitude. She is a caring person but she is not humble in the slightest. She's extremely arrogant at times and extremely narrowminded.

Unlike the other characters, most of which happen to be really modest, right?

And I don't know about you, but if I was conquering great cities at 15 and was the heir of a great dynasty, I'd be pretty arrogant too.

Quote

Dany doesn't fight. She can't fight. She isn't on the battlefield like Jon Snow or Robb Stark or Stannis or Tyrion or anybody. She sits in her comfortable room and waits for the battle to be over. Hell even Joffrey was in the battle of blackwater, somewhat. You lose respect for leaders when they arent in the battle.

I don't. Leaders going into battle themselves is pretty stupid in my book. One arrow and they are dead.

Quote

She said Ned stark died a traitors death even though everyone she knows who talks about ned stark seems to like the guy.(jorah doesnt count)

Well, Ned was executed for treason, so she's right, not to mention that he rebelled against his liege lord Aerys. And who are all those other people who she knows and talk about Ned with respect? Barristan and...?

IMO most of Dany's plotline is pretty boring but I don't have a problem with her personality. I like her ambition and decisiveness. But if people don't like her, that's cool, it doesn't ake them dumb or anything.

Jory, on 06 February 2012 - 01:06 AM, said:

everything that is in her power was not earned but was given to her, including, in my humble opinion, her penchant for insanity. the dragons are at the crux of this - she brought them back to life by walking into a fire and burning someone alive.

So taking a huge risk by going into fire is not earning them? OK...

Edited by David Selig, 06 February 2012 - 01:12 AM.

[Jory]

David Selig, on 06 February 2012 - 01:11 AM, said:

So taking a huge risk by going into fire is not earning them? OK...

it's a huge risk for me to leap off a bridge. if i happen to find a million dollars down there, did i somehow earn it? the guy who spent 50 years working in the coal mines to buy a 500k house would probably disagree.

[Apple Martini]

Jory, on 06 February 2012 - 01:06 AM, said:

everything that is in her power was not earned but was given to her, including, in my humble opinion, her penchant for insanity. the dragons are at the crux of this - she brought them back to life by walking into a fire and burning someone alive. not by sacrificing everything you've ever dreamed of so you can order around a bunch of rapists (Jon), not by refusing to give up even when you have only 5,000 sworn swords and a tiny fleet of pirate ships (Stannis). she used the dragons to get the Unsullied, unstoppable killers who never rout and never retreat. she used the Unsullied to get Mereen. it's like a domino effect of stupid. i literally forgot how the Iron Fleet, the best navy in Westeros, is currently sailing to help her. why? because she has dragons.

This too. She got the dragon eggs based on her name. She got the Unsullied by double-crossing the Astapori into thinking she'd give them Drogon. She used the Unsullied to guarantee her other victories. Barristan told Quentyn's friends that Quentyn was only there because of her dragons and I wanted to yell, "EVERYBODY is only there for the dragons!"

Quote

Unlike the other characters, most of which happen to be really modest, right?

Are they being sold as some kind of world savior?

Edited by Apple Martini, 06 February 2012 - 01:15 AM.

[salt]

I like Dany as character, moreso after ADWD. She finally seems human. But I think her rash idealism and denial about the political reality of Westeros and the reign of her father are warning signs that she could turn out to be very bad for Westeros. She hasn't reached a level of maturity where she is ready to have what equate to 3 nuclear bombs with faces under her control.

Targaryens turn out to either be great, or mad. I'm not yet convinced that Dany is great.

Edited by salt, 06 February 2012 - 01:17 AM.

[JKeats]

I really really want Euron (not Victarion) to use that horn to take control of the dragons. Then everybody else will have to find some way of killing off the damn things once and for all.

[David Selig]

Jory, on 06 February 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

it's a huge risk for me to leap off a bridge. if i happen to find a million dollars down there, did i somehow earn it? the guy who spent 50 years working in the coal mines to buy a 500k house would probably disagree.

Yeah, but you won't jump off a bridge planning to find a million dollars, would you?

[JKeats]

Dany gave up very little to acquire three super weapons. What did she sacrifice? Her permanently comatose husband, a horse, and one maegi that she hated and would have killed anyway. Moreover, she wasn't even trained in magic. She just operated on a hunch; lo and behold, it turned out pretty well for her. As we learn in ADWD, Melisandre puts a lot of effort into her magic, much of which apparently exacts quite a toll on her. Stannis lost 20 years of his life (loosely speaking). Arya literally had her faced cut off and another grafted on in its place. Beric Donadarrion dies six times over! All of this in exchange for outcomes that are nowhere near as favorable as three dragons.

Edited by JKeats, 06 February 2012 - 01:29 AM.