18 replies to this topic

[Drowsey Dragon]

Ser Rodrik's decision to deplete the garrison at Winterfell and march to besieged Torrhen's Square defies logic and is hard to swallow as a reader. He is the castellan of Winterfell and its sworn defender. He is sspecially entrusted to protect the lives of Bran and Rikon.

What was so important about the siege at Torrhen's Square to leave Winterfell totally unprotected. To not even leave 50-100 men to protect the heirs of winterfell and the kings brothers? Also his own daughter who is there?

Ser Rodrik is an old and wise man, no one in his position would make such a rekless and bone-headed decision. Hindsight is 20-20, but I think the writer fails to convince here. The writer trys to make up for this later on by having Maester Luwin confess to not having forseen this threat. Again this is possible, but doubtful. Luwin is extremely intelligent and would have seen at least the possibility of this threat and given proper council.

This disturbs me as a reader because this decision has drastic consequences further on in the series, so something more plausable should have been found for Theons take over of Winterfell than this.

[Ygrette]

Hmmm... you are right.

Anyway, I think it must have just been the lack of likelihood that something like that would happen. As Asha has pointed out to Theon it is quite a foolish thing to take Winterfell with just a handful of men and it was just something noone, not even Luwin could have expected. In order to foresee this danger, one must have had the ability to look into Theon's sick and twisted little foolish mind and I think Theon's move didn't make sense to anyone except to Theon himself. It was just very very unlikely to happen.

Having said this, if Winterfell, Bran and Rickon had been trusted to my hands, I wouldn't have left them unprotected. So your point makes sense to me. All in all, it seemed far too easy to me to take Winterfell like this.


Greetings,
Steph

[Corvinus]

I don't think it was a writing mistake. When was the last time Winterfell itself was threatened? It is in the middle of the North, a very large country. Who would assume it was going to be under attack? Even the ironborn, except for Theon didn't think it was possible or a good idea to take it.
Also, at the time, Ser Rodrik didn't have all the intel about the ironborn. All he knew was there were raiders on the Stoney Shore, and then suddenly a famous ironborn raider attacks Tohrren's Square with a lot of men. His reaction makes sense, and Ser Rodrik wasn't necessarily known for being a brilliant strategist who could think of all possible outcomes.

[Drowsey Dragon]

Corvinus, on 06 February 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

I don't think it was a writing mistake. When was the last time Winterfell itself was threatened? It is in the middle of the North, a very large country. Who would assume it was going to be under attack? Even the ironborn, except for Theon didn't think it was possible or a good idea to take it.
Also, at the time, Ser Rodrik didn't have all the intel about the ironborn. All he knew was there were raiders on the Stoney Shore, and then suddenly a famous ironborn raider attacks Tohrren's Square with a lot of men. His reaction makes sense, and Ser Rodrik wasn't necessarily known for being a brilliant strategist who could think of all possible outcomes.

I agree he is not a military genious, but he took the complete garrison. Theon only had a handful of men. He could have left at least 50 - 60 men to protect the castle and they could have easily held off Theons rabble.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Ygrette, on 06 February 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

Hmmm... you are right.

Anyway, I think it must have just been the lack of likelihood that something like that would happen. As Asha has pointed out to Theon it is quite a foolish thing to take Winterfell with just a handful of men and it was just something noone, not even Luwin could have expected. In order to foresee this danger, one must have had the ability to look into Theon's sick and twisted little foolish mind and I think Theon's move didn't make sense to anyone except to Theon himself. It was just very very unlikely to happen.

Having said this, if Winterfell, Bran and Rickon had been trusted to my hands, I wouldn't have left them unprotected. So your point makes sense to me. All in all, it seemed far too easy to me to take Winterfell like this.


Greetings,
Steph

Taking Winterfell wasn't foolish. Theon actually showed a stroke of genius there. Trying to hold it was the foolish part

If he had just swooped in with his men, taken the Starks, Reeds, and Freys as hostages, plundered the Castles gold/armory, and then burnt the fucker down he'd have achieved eternal glory

[Ygrette]

Ramsay Gimp, on 07 February 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

Taking Winterfell wasn't foolish. Theon actually showed a stroke of genius there. Trying to hold it was the foolish part

If he had just swooped in with his men, taken the Starks, Reeds, and Freys as hostages, plundered the Castles gold/armory, and then burnt the fucker down he'd have achieved eternal glory

I guess that's a matter of terminology. In my understanding, sneaking into a castle and stealing hostages/gold isn't really "taking" it. That would've been the wiser option, I agree. But Theon didn't seem to be motivated by strategic brilliance, but rather by vengeance and the hope to earn his father's respect. He even seems surprised that his actions didn't inspire much respect in the people of Winterfell. These are my hints that he seemed to be more than a little delusional and "foolish".

Anyway I still think Winterfell shouldn't have been left completely unprotected, even if Theon's strike came out of the blue and couldn't have been expected by anyone. Part of me wishes Arya had been there and stuck'em with the pointy end.


Greetings,
Steph

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

Ramsay Gimp, on 07 February 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

If he had just swooped in with his men, taken the Starks, Reeds, and Freys as hostages, plundered the Castles gold/armory, and then burnt the fucker down he'd have achieved eternal glory

That is what a raider or a true warrior would have done. I think Theon was just looking for a home, something he hadn't found at Pyke.

[Snow Ghost]

Truth, OK to go there fight the raiders, but it was very irresponsible of him to live no one to protect Bran and Rickon, they were the princes after all.

[Dragonreaver]

Eh...

Whilst I agree that it was foolish not to leave ANY semblance of a garrison at Winterfell, I don't think it was a "stupid" decision to march to Torhen's Square. Winterfell, as far as anyone could be expected to assume, was in virtually no danger. It could probably have held out for a few days by simply closing the doors against any conventional army. It wasn't attacked by a conventional army though, it was attacked by a massively PO'd former resident of the place, who knew it just as well as anyone else.

As for Theon not taking the obvious hostages and sacking the place... that's the whole point of Theon's story arc in ACoK; he's not an Ironborn anymore. He's forgotten how to be. An Ironborn would do that, an Ironborn would probably have delivered the North to Balon's feet. The only way Theon knows, is to take a castle and hold it against all odds. That's what he's been brought up learning to do. He thinks his father will be proud of him for doing that, but he's utterly mistaken and that's sort of the tragedy of Theon Turncoat, really. He was born of the Iron Islands, but he's been raised by Starks. Now he's forgotten how to be Ironborn, and turned his back on the Starks, so really he's got nothing...

Edited by Dragonreaver, 19 February 2012 - 08:17 PM.

[Drowsey Dragon]

Dragonreaver, on 19 February 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

Eh...

Whilst I agree that it was foolish not to leave ANY semblance of a garrison at Winterfell, I don't think it was a "stupid" decision to march to Torhen's Square. Winterfell, as far as anyone could be expected to assume, was in virtually no danger. It could probably have held out for a few days by simply closing the doors against any conventional army. It wasn't attacked by a conventional army though, it was attacked by a massively PO'd former resident of the place, who knew it just as well as anyone else.

As for Theon not taking the obvious hostages and sacking the place... that's the whole point of Theon's story arc in ACoK; he's not an Ironborn anymore. He's forgotten how to be. An Ironborn would do that, an Ironborn would probably have delivered the North to Balon's feet. The only way Theon knows, is to take a castle and hold it against all odds. That's what he's been brought up learning to do. He thinks his father will be proud of him for doing that, but he's utterly mistaken and that's sort of the tragedy of Theon Turncoat, really. He was born of the Iron Islands, but he's been raised by Starks. Now he's forgotten how to be Ironborn, and turned his back on the Starks, so really he's got nothing...

Very good points about Theon. He really ends up a tragic and lost character. I agree it was not stupid to march to Torhen's Square, but a garrison of soldiers and a few knights should have been left behind. Two very young and helpless princes still resided there and should always have been taken into consideration. Here it was entirley overlooked with tragic consequences.

[Dragonreaver]

I can definitely agree with that. I'm not sure whether that's  plot flaw or a character flaw, though. As in, was it something entirely stupid that nobody would ever do in reality, or was it simply a bad decision by Ser Roderik. I'm inclined to give GRRM the benefit of the doubt and Roderik was an idiot.

[Hookd]

Dragonreaver, on 19 February 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

Eh...
that's the whole point of Theon's story arc in ACoK; he's not an Ironborn anymore. .... Now he's forgotten how to be Ironborn, and turned his back on the Starks, so really he's got nothing...

First off, Theon is not a likeable character.  He's terribly selfish and self-centered.. but one thing that I found odd is that he laments at one point that Eddard Stark never made him feel welcomed or part  of the family or some such like that.    However, never in the first two books do you get that Theon was treated poorly while the Starks ward (or hostage).  As we have Theon complaints, we have been seeing how Sansa has been treated by the Baratheon/Lannister set as a comparison.  


As to Roderik,  the problem has had or mistake he made has been trusting Stark's bannerman to be honorable, which none of them have.   After all, why would Roderik have thought that Winterfell would have been attacked by Theon, who was raised there as well as the Stark children, or the Bolton's who he thought that he killed already.

[vjott]

Rodrick probably thought that with Robb in the Riverlands, that the north was safe. Presumably anyone coming through The Neck would need to get past Robb first and Winterfell was far from the shores so he did not give consideration to attackers coming from the sea and crossing on land. Also, he was one of those "honourable ones" who, perhaps, thought that Balon Greyjoy would not think to raise a rebellion against the North. In addition, he could not anticipate that Theon, of all people would be leading the attack. Asha herself, a much more experienced raider, berated Theon for his actions.

[DurararaFTW]

Ygrette, on 08 February 2012 - 03:07 AM, said:

I guess that's a matter of terminology. In my understanding, sneaking into a castle and stealing hostages/gold isn't really "taking" it. That would've been the wiser option, I agree. But Theon didn't seem to be motivated by strategic brilliance, but rather by vengeance and the hope to earn his father's respect. He even seems surprised that his actions didn't inspire much respect in the people of Winterfell. These are my hints that he seemed to be more than a little delusional and "foolish".

Anyway I still think Winterfell shouldn't have been left completely unprotected, even if Theon's strike came out of the blue and couldn't have been expected by anyone. Part of me wishes Arya had been there and stuck'em with the pointy end.


Greetings,
Steph

As Roose Bolton said, any real Northmen knows that Theon defeated Robb Stark and the North, the second he took Winterfell. If Asha had come and reinforced the defenses as Theon requested, they'd probably still be there. Theon's mistake was not realising he was the only trained soldier rather then pirate in the Ironborn army.

[sumant30]

I think ser rodrik committed a grave mistake by leaving winterfell unguarded.

[Saxony]

sumant30, on 25 July 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

I think ser rodrik committed a grave mistake by leaving winterfell unguarded.

Yes, he did. All it takes is one stupid mistake to bring everything down.

People are coming at this with "it's just wrong", well there are a lot of things in these books that are really, REALLY wrong.  It's the way of good myth.  It's always about the foolish ones and the noble ones.  Always.

[Talleyrand]

I disagree, there were a dozen or so guards left in Winterfell. Winterfell has several large walls and its is only due to Theon's knowledge of the place that they are able to get in.
When Rodrik hears that Dagmar Cleft-Jaw is besieging Torren's Square I don't see why he - A man who is never said to have a strategic mind - should expect that a second force of raiders is waiting in hiding led by a man who has intimate knowledge of the castle.

[The French Lion]

When you think your surrounded by allies/friends, you don't think about the worst case scenario.

It might be dumb, but nobody else told him to leave more men, so it seems like a normal decision to make in that world, for a Liege lord who thinks all his neighbors are allies.

[hammister]

The battling was never a conscious threat to Winterfall. I doubt Maestor Luwin and Ser Rodrik had even thought of the Iron Islands amongst this cluster-fart of a war. Who would have kept tabs on the Greyjoy house at a time like this.
Maestor Luwin overlooking this and Ser Rodrik's decision seemed credible to me.
Maybe I'm wrong!