64 replies to this topic

[Lord Damian]

Dany, when we are first introduce to her, was an innocent, physically but not yet sexually abused child of 13.
Beautiful and flowered yet baring the scars of being raised by a phsychologically damaged brother in Viserys, the Beggar King. Dany is esentually traded/sold to a raping pillaging horselord - Khal Drogo and is raped against her will on their "Wedding Night". Dany contemplates suicide along the route to the Dothraki stronghold of Vas Dothrak but seeks knowledge from one of her slave girls that once served as a prostitute. She throws herself completely into being a pleasing wife to Drogo and let go to a great extent of the person she was raised to be to that point in her life. She seems to "fit" into her role as a Dothraki Khalesi and eventually allows her brother to be killed brutally by her "loving" husband. Lets face it, she could have saved him if she wanted to but chose not to. She has never been the same person since her wedding day, perhaps no woman is, or man for that matter but do any of you think she is displaying or has displayed any potential symptoms of Stockholm Syndrome? If any of you are unsure what that is, just google the name "Patty Hearst".

Edited by Lord Damian, 07 February 2012 - 09:50 AM.

[just an Other]

I don't understand psychology terms and frankly i don't care to. Mainly because many have been changed at least twice in my lifetime and I'm not that old.

[Lord Damian]

 just an Other, on 06 February 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

I don't understand psychology terms and frankly i don't care to. Mainly because many have been changed at least twice in my lifetime and I'm not that old.

basically, you become like your captors, mind body and spirity. A true beleiver if you will.

[just an Other]

I know what it means. I just don't buy it.

Edited by just an Other, 06 February 2012 - 05:44 PM.

[littleWalder]

 Lord Damian, on 06 February 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Dany is esentually traded/sold to a raping pillaging horselord - Khal Drogo and is raped against her will on their "Wedding Night".

Drogo: "No?" ..... Dany: "Yes!"

[Jory]

 littleWalder, on 06 February 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Drogo: "No?" ..... Dany: "Yes!"

Yeah, that was a weird scene

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

bad writing. Which isn't often as I love this series but I don't buy that relationship and Dany's reaction

[Marakesh]

Would she have developed "Stockholm Syndrome" if Illyrio had kept and bed her as he had briefly considered? I think not. Plus rape might be a bit strong as she does agree to go along with the wedding. Maybe statutory rape in modern terms? She says her "I do" only because she's young and pushed into it by all the older men around her.

[ShadowRaven]

No, just no >..<.

[WenchofTarth]

 Marakesh, on 06 February 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

Would she have developed "Stockholm Syndrome" if Illyrio had kept and bed her as he had briefly considered? I think not. Plus rape might be a bit strong as she does agree to go along with the wedding. Maybe statutory rape in modern terms? She says her "I do" only because she's young and pushed into it by all the older men around her.

She "agreed" to the wedding? You must have an odd notion to what consent is.

[Raksha the Demon]

 WenchofTarth, on 06 February 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

She "agreed" to the wedding? You must have an odd notion to what consent is.

Dany agreed to the wedding in the same spirit that Sansa agreed to hers - they didn't really have any other options; and their protests were ignored (they were both told that they would be married regardless of their protests). They were both too young, in terms of emotional and physical development (except for being 'flowered') and even usual Westerosi customs (where, though marriage is legal for a young, menstruating girl, it seems frowned upon at less than 15 years).

I think Dany was lucky in that she was able to eventually make lemons out of lemonade, and actually know some security and power because of the marriage. But that security and power, as Dany found out, was fragile, all depended on Drogo; and when he fell, Dany was reviled and nearly abandoned.

[Sidonie]

No, I don't really think it was Stockholm syndrome. Dany eventually experienced security as Drogo's Khaleesi, and she felt empowered with him, in a sense. Drogo enjoyed seeing Dany ride her silver for the first time, making it jump over the flames. He even expressed approval for her "fiery" temper when she threatened the horselords who were raping the lamb women. Seems like Drogo really did love Dany, and because of this she loved him in return.

[Moshtradamus]

at first she might have hated him/the marriage, and he might have only done it for his pleasure and gains, but i think by the time Drogo died, they both grew to love each other.

[salem]

Yeah, I too am not buying the Dany/Drogo relationship as an example of Stockholm Syndrome.

Though the marriage was far from idyllic, especially at first, eventually Dany proved her mettle and forged a pretty strong bond with Drogo before the end.

[ForeverBallin]

In that case Cat had Stockholm Syndrome

[corbon]

 Lord Damian, on 06 February 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Dany, when we are first introduce to her, was an innocent, physically but not yet sexually abused child of 13.

So you don't classify Viserys' actions (and words) as sexual abuse?
She knew what 'waking the dragon' meant, and was afraid of it...

 Lord Damian, on 06 February 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Beautiful and flowered yet baring the scars of being raised by a phsychologically damaged brother in Viserys, the Beggar King. Dany is esentually traded/sold to a raping pillaging horselord - Khal Drogo and is raped against her will on their "Wedding Night".

No, she isn't.
She is afraid, but it isn't against her will. She didn't want the marriage due to her fears, but she always understood that she was destined for a political marriage. Having sex within that marriage, whether she wants it or not overall, is just a fact of reality. What she brings to the table in this contract, is heirs.
She is afraid of it, but she faces up to that fear and does it anyway.
Drogo is exceptionally (unexpectedly) gentle on that first night. He overcomes her fears, not her objections. It was very far from rape, whatever the show looked like.
Less so later, but the main problem there is the effects of riding all day, every day, when her body isn't hardened to it. She isn't getting 'recovery' at night because that is when her primary function - child bearing - is in action. Drogo could have, should perhaps, been more sensitive, but he isn't exactly culturally attuned to do so.

 Lord Damian, on 06 February 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Dany contemplates suicide along the route to the Dothraki stronghold of Vas Dothrak but seeks knowledge from one of her slave girls that once served as a prostitute. She throws herself completely into being a pleasing wife to Drogo and let go to a great extent of the person she was raised to be to that point in her life.

Another entirely false characterisation. No she does not throw herself completely into being a pleasing wife, nor does she let go of the person she was. She does many things that go against the role of Drogo's wife, and that is one of the reasons he comes to love her - she is fierce and demands some things her way over his, quite the opposite of a submissive wife.
What she does do is seek ways to assert herself and take some power back in her life. Successfully too.

 Lord Damian, on 06 February 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

She seems to "fit" into her role as a Dothraki Khalesi and eventually allows her brother to be killed brutally by her "loving" husband. Lets face it, she could have saved him if she wanted to but chose not to. She has never been the same person since her wedding day, perhaps no woman is, or man for that matter but do any of you think she is displaying or has displayed any potential symptoms of Stockholm Syndrome. If any of you are unsure what that is, just google the name "Patty Hearst".

Way to go on selective reading! Her brother was quite a lot more brutal to her than her husband, and never gave her any protection or love. She did save him before, but he'd just threatened to cut her baby out of her stomach while pricking her navel with his sword.
She has grown since her wedding day, but no, no evidence of Stockholm Syndrome.

[The Volantene]

While the term Stockholm Syndrome may be thrown around a lot and I don't know if this would fit the clinical definition of it, but I am aghast at the fact that so many people are effectively denying that Dany was repeatedly raped by Drogo. I don't think her later appreciation for Dothraki culture retroactively gives consent. A love for this series does not preclude calling it out when there are highly problematic depictions of various issues. I would have preferred if the narrative had shown her a strong survivor of abuse, one who is stronger because of it.

[ForeverBallin]

 The Volantene, on 06 February 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

While the term Stockholm Syndrome may be thrown around a lot and I don't know if this would fit the clinical definition of it, but I am aghast at the fact that so many people are effectively denying that Dany was repeatedly raped by Drogo. I don't think her later appreciation for Dothraki culture retroactively gives consent. A love for this series does not preclude calling it out when there are highly problematic depictions of various issues. I would have preferred if the narrative had shown her a strong survivor of abuse, one who is stronger because of it.

Don't get this. She was penetrated without consent /= scarred for life. Rape is rape, no doubt, but how is she a victim?

Edited by ForeverBallin, 06 February 2012 - 10:01 PM.

[Evamitchelle]

If you're looking for someone with Stockholm Syndrome you should look towards Theon IMO. Wikipedia's definition (not the most reputable sources but it's good enough for general definitions) says : "In psychology, Stockholm Syndrome is an apparently paradoxical psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and have positive feelings towards their captors, sometimes to the point of defending them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness." To me that sounds more like Theon's situation than Dany's. Especially since Theon still feels torn between his original family and his captors (the Starks), while Dany never really had that problem and assimilated rather well into Dothraki culture in the end.

[corbon]

 corbon, on 06 February 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

No, she isn't.
She is afraid, but it isn't against her will.

Quotes to back it up, since lots of people will probably jump on this - its a touchy subject and a lot of people feel strongly enough that they insist on their version on the 'truth' (usually so theu can justify hate) regardless of what the books say.

Quote

As the hours passed, the terror grew in Dany, until it was all she could do not to scream. She was afraid of the Dothraki, whose ways seemed alien and monstrous, as if they were beasts in human skins and not true men at all. She was afraid of her brother, of what he might do if she failed him. Most of all, she was afraid of what would happen tonight under the stars, when her brother gave her up to the hulking giant who sat drinking beside her with a face as still and cruel as a bronze mask.

I am the blood of the dragon, she told herself again.

She is afraid of what is to come, but steeling herself, telling herself she can do this.
That clearly indicates acceptance.

Quote

She stood there helpless and trembling in her wedding silks while he secured the horses, and when he turned to look at her, she began to cry.

Khal Drogo stared at her tears, his face strangely empty of expression. "No," he said. He lifted his hand and rubbed away the tears roughly with a callused thumb.

"You speak the Common Tongue," Dany said in wonder.

"No," he said again.

Perhaps he had only that word, she thought, but it was one word more than she had known he had, and somehow it made her feel a little better. Drogo touched her hair lightly, sliding the silver-blond strands between his fingers and murmuring softly in Dothraki. Dany did not understand the words, yet there was warmth in the tone, a tenderness she had never expected from this man.


He put his finger under her chin and lifted her head, so she was looking up into his eyes. Drogo towered over her as he towered over everyone. Taking her lightly under the arms, he lifted her and seated her on a rounded rock beside the stream. Then he sat on the ground facing her, legs crossed beneath him, their faces finally at a height. "No," he said.

"Is that the only word you know?" she asked him.

Drogo did not reply. His long heavy braid was coiled in the dirt beside him. He pulled it over his right shoulder and began to remove the bells from his hair, one by one. After a moment Dany leaned forward to help.

She helps, voluntarily, without any coercion at all at this point. The scary arranged-marriage 'barbarian' dude is turning out a bit different than she expected.

Quote

His fingers were deft and strangely tender. He removed her silks one by one, carefully, while Dany sat unmoving, silent, looking at his eyes. When he bared her small breasts, she could not help herself. She averted her eyes and covered herself with her hands. "No," Drogo said. He pulled her hands away from her breasts, gently but firmly, then lifted her face again to make her look at him. "No," he repeated.

She is still afraid, and naturally shy. She isn't saying no, and he isn't forcing her. He's gently leading. Maybe if she had resisted at this point, he would have stopped. Probably not. But that is irrelevant because the point is she didn't resist, she had accepted what was going to happen, she was just afraid still. Fear is not denial, nor refusal.

Quote

"No," she echoed back at him.

He stood her up then and pulled her close to remove the last of her silks. The night air was chilly on her bare skin. She shivered, and gooseflesh covered her arms and legs. She was afraid of what would come next, but for a while nothing happened. Khal Drogo sat with his legs crossed, looking at her, drinking in her body with his eyes.

After a while he began to touch her. Lightly at first, then harder. She could sense the fierce strength in his hands, but he never hurt her. ..

He stopped then, and drew her down onto his lap. Dany was flushed and breathless, her heart fluttering in her chest. He cupped her face in his huge hands and looked into his eyes. "No?" he said, and she knew it was a question.

She took his hand and moved it down to the wetness between her thighs. "Yes," she whispered as she put his finger inside her.

She's scared shitless by the fierce, violent, scary, giant barbarian. But she is determined to go through with it.
Instead of what she was afraid of, he's gentle and engages in lots of foreplay that turns her on, then gives her the choice and she is the one that says yes and initiates further.

Could not possibly be further from rape if it tried. Unless every woman in an arranged marriage is 'raped' on her wedding night and many nights to come.
But people see what they want to see and deliberately distort things to fit within their predisposed world-view.