59 replies to this topic

[Falrinn]

Here's a few things we know:

1. The inhabitants of Greywater Watch, the crannogmen, have kept to the old ways much more then even the other northerners.
2. Lord Howland Reed is the only living person that we know of to have visited the Isle of Faces, perhaps one of the most sacred places of the Old God religion. An Isle that somehow survived the Andal conquest despite being well south of Moat Cailin.
3. Lord Howland Reed is the only living person who we know with absolute certainty was at the Tower of Joy, meaning if anyone has proof of R+L=J, it's him.
4. Lady Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover have been unaccounted for since Robb Stark sent them to Greywater Watch...with the contents of his will. With no relatives in Lannister hands, they are free to remain there as long as they see fit.


What does this mean?

It means Lord Howland Reed could be in the unique position to know that Jon Snow both has a claim to the Targeryan throne and to Winterfell, with proof of both. In addition who knows what old powers he has knowledge of from his time at the Isle of Faces and simply being a crannogman. Heck, Jon Snow's "death" might not even be an insurmountable problem.

What if Howland Reed decides that an heir of both the Iron Throne and the King in the North would be the perfect person to unite the shattered realm before the Others march south?


However there's other possibilities. What if the reason GRRM never explicitly stated the content's of Robb's will was because it didn't actually say the obvious and name Jon Snow? Maybe Robb decided his mother was right after all and choose to name someone else as his heir. Heck for all we know he could of even named Howland Reed due to his father's friendship with the Lord of Greywater Watch. Either way, the proof of Robb's heir is at Greywater Watch, and Howland Reed is the person most able to act on it.

I would be very surprised if this obscure, but unique, castle ended up being one of the more important places in The Winds of Winter.

[just an Other]

I think it is sight of Chekhov's nuclear arsenal. Aside from the things you mentioned, Uncat's band is mentioned disappearing into the bogs while being persecuted by Frey's and let's not forget Ned's bones. Maritn seems to stash anything he doesn't want to resolve in there and I can't help but think that eventually all this is going to come pouring out.

[Winter's Lady]

There are too many thigs related to this place and Howland Reed (as you summed up really nicely), to let this subject go untouched much longer imho. (checkhov's gun alert!)
I hope our dear Howie shows up in TWOW, and starts talking...or else...he won't.

[Falrinn]

just an Other, on 06 February 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

I think it is sight of Chekhov's nuclear arsenal. Aside from the things you mentioned, Uncat's band is mentioned disappearing into the bogs while being persecuted by Frey's and let's not forget Ned's bones. Maritn seems to stash anything he doesn't want to resolve in there and I can't help but think that eventually all this is going to come pouring out.

I forgot about the Brotherhood without Banners using the place as a hideout, must of been a fairly quick reference. So that's another thing to add to the list

As for Eddard's bones, I don't think we know for sure where those ended up, but Greywater Watch is as likely place as any.

[Jory]

I hope Howland Reed dies of a bad cold.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

I hope we get to meet Howland Reed, he sounds interesting.

[Winter's Lady]

Jory, on 06 February 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

I hope Howland Reed dies of a bad cold.

That would be epic trolling on GRRM's part hehe.
"Oh, you thought I'd just give you Howland to conveniently reveal all this important stuff you wanted to know for ages? NOPE, I don't roll like dat!"
dun dun dunnnnnn

Also, my sig -->

Edited by Lady of Oldcastle, 06 February 2012 - 08:09 PM.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

I can't wait to meet Howland Reed! He is like the most mysterious character in the books, we have heard about him a lot of times but never got to see him yet. I wonder if the fact that he hasnt left Greywater Watch since Robert's rebellion has something to do with what happened in the Tower of Joy. Maybe he is keeping/guarding something important? Shouldnt he have gone with Robb when he called his bannermen? I know the Reeds defend the Neck so maybe he didn't need to leave GW, but he still sent his kids to Winterfell to swear loyalty to the Starks. I need to meet this man asap

[jarl the climber]

I hope that Greywater Watch ends up being called Clearwater Watch pretty soon.

[Knight of the Red Chicken]

The way I see it, half way through TWOW Greywater will start becoming quite important, and it will (hopefully) set up everything for the rest of the series. At some point these issues will have to be dealt with, and sooner rather than later would make more sense because then the explanations would not feel rushed. By introducing it in the next book, everything would have the proper amount of time to be played out wihtout feeling like a corny last-minute resolution.

[Lady Octarina]

As funny as the idea of him dying of a bad cold is, I'm pretty certain Martin can't hide him for much longer. If I had to bet, I'd say he'll make his appearance in the first 300 pages of TWoW. Who knows, he might be with an army on his way to Winterfell right now. I would like to see him meeting Stannis... and their reaction when they hear of Jon Snow's "death".

[Falrinn]

Lady Octarina, on 06 February 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

As funny as the idea of him dying of a bad cold is, I'm pretty certain Martin can't hide him for much longer. If I had to bet, I'd say he'll make his appearance in the first 300 pages of TWoW. Who knows, he might be with an army on his way to Winterfell right now. I would like to see him meeting Stannis... and their reaction when they hear of Jon Snow's "death".

I'm actually thinking The Winds of Winter prologue might be at Greywater Watch as we are due for a south of the wall one. Have Howland Reed openly make preparations for doing whatever it is he plans on doing. Revealing who Robb's heir actually is in the process and perhaps Jon Snow's parentage as well.

If we want to insist on killing off the prologue PoV like normal, then tell it from the perspective of a Bolton or Frey (be it a member of House Frey or just a random soldier or Knight) that got nabbed by the crannogmen or the Brotherhood without Banners. Lord Howland Reed can lop of the guy's head on the way out.

[Completely Headless Ned]

If I had to bet i'd think we see him when Stannis goes to meet him. Assuming he's not dead, Stannis is the only person with a reason to go to Greywater Watch.

[David C. Simmons]

Howland Reed is lost and cant find Greywater watch.

Stannis may have to retreat to greywater watch. If Howland Reed was such a good friend to Ned then he should at least attempt to help out in a real battle. Meera and Jojen have given their lives from Bran

[Falrinn]

David C. Simmons, on 06 February 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

Howland Reed is lost and cant find Greywater watch.

Stannis may have to retreat to greywater watch. If Howland Reed was such a good friend to Ned then he should at least attempt to help out in a real battle. Meera and Jojen have given their lives from Bran

Here's the thing, I don't think Howland Reed and Stannis are going to be on the same side if they do meet for a number of reasons.

1. Howland Reed, as a crannogman, is probably the most devout follower of the Old Gods there is. We are talking about a man who's actually met the Green Men and had a son with green dreams. He isn't going to take kindly to a king who's burned down godswoods in the past, even if he's moderated his policy in more recent times for practical reasons.

2. Howland Reed is still openly sworn to House Stark. He may be less-then-willing to bend the knee to anyone other then the one named in Robb's will. Although he might follow suit if that person bent the knee to Stannis. If my crackpot theory is correct and he's the one named in Robb's will, then who knows what'll happen.

3. If R+L=J is correct and Howland Reed has proof and he means to place Jon Snow on the Iron Throne, then he probably wouldn't want to aide a different claimant to the throne.

[Completely Headless Ned]

What would Howlands proof be? I mean Jon doesn't exactly look like a Targ.

[Falrinn]

Completely Headless Ned, on 06 February 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

What would Howlands proof be? I mean Jon doesn't exactly look like a Targ.

Anything written by Rhaegar referencing Lyanna as his wife and the fact she is having a child could work. Maybe a letter Ned could of given Howland for safe keeping in case he died before telling Jon Snow who he truly was. Greywater Watch would be a logical place to keep any proof that did exist.

Of course Howland Reed's testimony alone might carry some weight. He was at the Tower of Joy after all.

[Fire Eater]

Completely Headless Ned, on 06 February 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

What would Howlands proof be? I mean Jon doesn't exactly look like a Targ.

Wylla, Jon's wet nurse may have been at the TOJ when Lyanna gave birth to him, Rhaegar would've at least left Lyanna some servants to cook and care for her. Her word may carry weight. Also, if Jon manages to meet a challenge proposed, where he has to mount one of Dany's dragons to prove his Targ heritage, and does that could do it.

[Completely Headless Ned]

Falrinn, on 06 February 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

Anything written by Rhaegar referencing Lyanna as his wife and the fact she is having a child could work. Maybe a letter Ned could of given Howland for safe keeping in case he died before telling Jon Snow who he truly was. Greywater Watch would be a logical place to keep any proof that did exist.

Of course Howland Reed's testimony alone might carry some weight. He was at the Tower of Joy after all.

Even though he was at the TOJ, i think someone could easily refute his claims. But if he had it written down or Ned wrote something. Plus with the possibility of Wylla or Ashara(Assuming she's Lemore) knowing too, then that'd be more then enough evidence. I didn't think of all that, I was just thinking of Howland saying he was a targ.

Edited by Completely Headless Ned, 07 February 2012 - 03:14 AM.

[NanChan]

I think it's mighty bad-ass on the part of Greywater Watch to still defend the neck, the way they do. Plus, no one, till now at least, has actually found Greywater Watch, apart from the Crannogmen themselves. That counts as a WIN in my book.

I agree with all of the above commentators who think that Howland Reed and Greywater Watch will/must have an important role to play in TWOW.

P.S. While reading ADWD, I literally LOL-d when I read about how they cornered the Iron born in Moat Cailin. It was a Theon POV, IIRC.

P.P.S: Jojen wants to go back home and Howland Reed himself has met the Greenseers. I cannot help but wonder if Bran has been in touch with him, somehow.

Edited by NanChan, 07 February 2012 - 03:17 AM.