150 replies to this topic

[tze]

PatrickStormborn, on 07 February 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Dany was fighting an ice-armored army, and they melted. She therefore beat them. Her power is fire-based, but guess what? Dragons can fly away from water.

They "melted" into a torrent. They very explicitly don't vanish, they're simply transformed into a new form that Dany then can't set on fire. Her dream ends with the force of water being strengthened, not the force of fire being strengthened. Being Dany, of course, all she sees is the immediate victory of getting to set something on fire, she doesn't realize that, oh crap, her actions only made her problem worse.

And why would on earth would you assume dragons could just fly away from a tidal wave? After all, they couldn't fly high enough to escape the Doom. And for all we know, it wasn't the fires of the Doom that killed the dragons, it was the tidal waves.

PatrickStormborn, on 07 February 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

What? Why would she crash into snow? If she melts away the Others and the wights, she can simply fly away from the Trident...

Because obviously the only places in Westeros where you find snow are where the Others and wights happen to be. Seriously though, there's been way too much foreshadowing of fires dying in the snow for this to be inapplicable to fire dragons and "snow", be it literal or Jon.

[PatrickStormborn]

David C. Simmons, on 07 February 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

Hahahaha, Im just having fun with you. Im saying they can fly away, but its still winter. Personally I want Jon to have his own 'Ice' Dragon that is talked about so much, but Im sure it's just a nickname for him because of his blood. Do you think it will make a difference if Dany know that Jon Snow is a targ?

Oh, sorry!

I think it will make a huge difference if Dany knows that Jon is a Targ. I fully believe that they'll be on the same side at the end. Jon's dream showed him armored in black ice, which could be symbolising dragon glass, meaning that Jon will fight against wights from dragon back.

[PatrickStormborn]

tze, on 07 February 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

They "melted" into a torrent. They very explicitly don't vanish, they're simply transformed into a new form that Dany then can't set on fire. Her dream ends with the force of water being strengthened, not the force of fire being strengthened. Being Dany, of course, all she sees is the immediate victory of getting to set something on fire, she doesn't realize that, oh crap, her actions only made her problem worse.

And why would on earth would you assume dragons could just fly away from a tidal wave? After all, they couldn't fly high enough to escape the Doom. And for all we know, it wasn't the fires of the Doom that killed the dragons, it was the tidal waves.

Firstly, how else are wights supposed to die? If they get melted, they turn into water, but they're gone. Do you think Jon or someone else is going to kill the wights with a flaming sword and they'll vanish without turning to water?

There is a huge difference between what happened at Valyria and what happens in Dany's dream. And for all we know, what killed the dragons was the lack of food after Valyria burned.

[tze]

PatrickStormborn, on 07 February 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

Firstly, how else are wights supposed to die? If they get melted, they turn into water, but they're gone. Do you think Jon or someone else is going to kill the wights with a flaming sword and they'll vanish without turning to water?

When have we ever seen wights melt or in any way get transformed into water? I think the armies of wights will end up feeding an army of wolves, to be perfectly honest. We're told the direwolves will outlast the Children and giants, so there must be more of them somewhere, and they'll need to eat something. And Summer seems to enjoy eating wights.

If you actually meant the Others here, then Dany's dream would logically have ended with her melting the ice army and said army vanishing, as clearly there are some metaphors at work here (Dany sees this as the Usurper's army, for example). But it doesn't vanish. It's transformed, but it doesn't vanish. And when Sam killed the Other, it melted, but it didn't create more snow and ice around itself when it melted in the snow. Dany specifically sees the river Trident being strengthened into a torrent due to her own actions. So . . . because of Dany burning things, forces associated with ice (coughTheNorthcough) unite with forces associated with a river (coughTheRiverlandscough) into one surging entity. Now if only there were some precedent for a King of the North and Trident . . .

PatrickStormborn, on 07 February 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

There is a huge difference between what happened at Valyria and what happens in Dany's dream. And for all we know, what killed the dragons was the lack of food after Valyria burned.

Is there a difference? I think GRRM likes to harp on about Valyria's fate for a reason, and as Valyria's power derived from its dragons, and Dany's power (especially in Westeros) would also derive from the dragons, future parallels between the death of Valyria's dragons and the deaths of Dany's dragons aren't actually out of the realm of possibility, especially given how Valyria was smashed into an island, a power we know greenseers have.

And so you're speculating that dragons could fly so high that they could escape both the volcanoes (which they supposedly lived in, so how could volcanic eruptions kill them?) and the massive tidal waves (and we know dragons don't like rain, so maybe water does hurt them), but they couldn't just . . . fly outside the blast radius and find food?

Edited by tze, 07 February 2012 - 12:17 PM.

[David C. Hunter]

Quote

When have we ever seen wights melt or in any way get transformed into water? I think the armies of wights will end up feeding an army of wolves, to be perfectly honest. We're told the direwolves will outlast the Children and giants, so there must be more of themsomewhere, and they'll need to eat something. And Summer seems to enjoy eating wights.

If you actually meant the Others here, then Dany's dream would logically have ended with her melting the ice army and said army vanishing, as clearly there are some metaphors at work here (Dany sees this as the Usurper's army, for example). But it doesn't vanish. It's transformed, but it doesn't vanish. And when Sam killed the Other, it melted, but it didn't create more snow and ice around itself when it melted in the snow. Dany specifically sees the river Trident being strengthened into a torrent due to her own actions. So . . . because of Dany burning things, forces associated with ice (coughTheNorthcough) unite with forces associated with a river (coughTheRiverlandscough) into one surging entity. Now if only there were some precedent for a King of the North and Trident . . .

If that really was a metaphor of the North and Riverlands uniting I will be extremely happy. Easily accomplished too if Sansa does something soon.

[The Sunset King]

Daenerys's dream may have been symbolic rather than prophetic.  She had this dream when she was faced with a decision and was trying to discern what course of action she should take.  She believed that the dream indicated that she would succeed in the coming task from acting resolutely and undertaking decisive action.  Her interpretation of the dream seems to have found it as a reverse of what happened when Rhaegar fought Robert on the Trident.  Whereas Rhaegar was killed by the "Usurper," Dany saw this dream as meaning that the verdict of that day was undone and that she decimated either the forces of either same "Usurper" or some new one.  Whatever meaning the dream may have, Daenerys very much believed that the supposed Usurper's forces were destroyed or weakened, a belief that buoyed her confidence in the coming confrontation in Slaver's Bay.  If the dream was prophetic and did involve the Others, the odds are bad that it somehow was meant by Martin to be a good sign for the Others.

It is interesting that Jon's dream involving armor made of black ice ended with him killing several people that he cared about.  This dream probably was not prophetic but it would be kind of intriguing if both Jon and Dany turned negative and become final bosses.

Mormont and Barristan have been drawing parallels between Daenerys and Rhaegar, however it is quite possible that, in the end, she will become a new Maegor/Aerys/etc.

Neither Jon nor Daenerys, or Valyrians and Starks for that matter, constitute a superhuman species.  Every character could be said to "embody" elements to some degree.

Edited by The Sunset King, 07 February 2012 - 12:53 PM.

[Nymphetamine]

Dany may or may not sit the throne, if she does It won't be for very long. She will die in the war against the others. Stannis will take the Iron Throne.

Stannis/Davos 2012.

[David C. Hunter]

Nymphetamine, on 07 February 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

Dany may or may not sit the throne, if she does It won't be for very long. She will die in the war against the others. Stannis will take the Iron Throne.

Stannis/Davos 2012.

Im voting for that

[Arkash]

I love this so bittersweet, tragic and magnificent idea !

[DornishKnight]

The reason I think Martin may pull something like this is, well, ... this is Martin we're talking about.

Or maybe I've read too much "Berserk" (come to think of it, it is like ASOIAF in some respects)

[Ivy Snow]

I don't care much as long as she isn't on the throne and most importantly as long as she wont ever marry Jon...

[the average Other]

PatrickStormborn, on 07 February 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

What? Why would she crash into snow? If she melts away the Others and the wights, she can simply fly away from the Trident...

So even in the best case scenario the dream ended with her having to flee.

tze, on 07 February 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

If you actually meant the Others here, then Dany's dream would logically have ended with her melting the ice army and said army vanishing, as clearly there are some metaphors at work here (Dany sees this as the Usurper's army, for example). But it doesn't vanish. It's transformed, but it doesn't vanish. And when Sam killed the Other, it melted, but it didn't create more snow and ice around itself when it melted in the snow. Dany specifically sees the river Trident being strengthened into a torrent due to her own actions. So . . . because of Dany burning things, forces associated with ice (coughTheNorthcough) unite with forces associated with a river (coughTheRiverlandscough) into one surging entity. Now if only there were some precedent for a King of the North and Trident . . .

This makes me wonder if the dream was prophetic at all. It could just as well have been a "history lesson", because that is exactly what happened during Robert's Rebellion. A dragon (Targaryen) burned Northerners (Rickard and Brandon) and as a result the North and the Riverlands united into a torrent that drowned most of the dragons and forced the rest to flee.

[Serie]

Dany will conquer Westeros and rule over it till the last of her days just to piss all of you non-believers off!!!

and on the top of it she will have the babies of Jon Snow

[David C. Hunter]

Serie, on 08 February 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

Dany will conquer Westeros and rule over it till the last of her days just to piss all of you non-believers off!!!

and on the top of it she will have the babies of Jon Snow

Hahaha, Nooooooo!!!!!!  

[( Bloodraven )]

Apple Martini, on 06 February 2012 - 10:57 PM, said:

As long as her ass isn't polishing the Iron Throne, I don't care what happens to her.

Oh I'm pretty sure someone would instantly provide a cushion to keep her ass perfectly comfy. Ser Grandfather/Jorah/Tyrion, or worse, the Starks

And OP, as much as I want her to be Le Villain in the end, I don't see how she'll get there because GRRM keeps portraying her as the "perfect" ultrafeminist heroine who can do no wrong and if she ever does, she must be forgiven because "she's only a young girl and knows little in the ways of war... teehee "

UGGHHH

[Winter's Lady]

Serie, on 08 February 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

Dany will conquer Westeros and rule over it till the last of her days just to piss all of you non-believers off!!!

and on the top of it she will have the babies of Jon Snow

Ooooohhhh no you didn't just ...
Also, see my signature , it was never put to better use -->

Naah, to each his own, we're all good.

[DornishKnight]

ser bronn of blackwater, on 08 February 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

And OP, as much as I want her to be Le Villain in the end, I don't see how she'll get there because GRRM keeps portraying her as the "perfect" ultrafeminist heroine who can do no wrong and if she ever does, she must be forgiven because "she's only a young girl and knows little in the ways of war... teehee "

Perfection has its price. If I had a character I portrayed like that, it would be a setup to something tragic. It would be intentionally misleading.

[The Sunset King]

The dream seems most likely to have pertained to the issue at hand when she had it:  the coming confrontation in Slaver's Bay.  In this theory, the field was essentially the same or very similar to the one that Rhaegar fought upon.  The difference was that Daenerys was commanding the Targaryen loyalists against Robert's forces who, for whatever reason, were armored in black ice.  The dragonfire melted away the icy armor, leading to said water seeping into the ground and the rivers, probably meaning that the bodies within were incinerated and charred.

Daenerys thought the approaching issue in Essos was her Rhaegar-like test and her "version" of the Trident.  However, whereas the Trident went badly for the Targs, in this case, the dream provides no evidence that the enemy was able to reconstitute itself or destroyed the Targaryen force.  Thus, the dream reinforced her plan as she was encouraged by the outcome seen in it.

* Battle of the Trident = Conflict with the Slavers
* Daenerys saw herself as Rhaegar's substitute in this version of the battle
* The "Usurper's" host armored in black ice = the foe, apparently the black ice means that she sees them as inwardly tainted or something akin to that.


There are other intepretations of this dream that can encompass the facts but this one seems to fit the textual evidence immediately following the dream very well.

Edited by The Sunset King, 08 February 2012 - 10:10 AM.

[Aslerys]

Well I think Dany is going to be more ruthless now, her desert "walk" seemed to show her what we already knew, she is doing almost everthing wrong. IMHO she is hurt and angry because she thinks that no one cares about the effords that she made to secure peace.
Targs are known for their short temper (and madness) so I think taht she will crash and burn all her enimies in Slaver's Bay (litterally) to the point of none of them represent a threat anymore. Its going to be a blood bath and I think she will regret later. I thought that she was refering to this when she said that dragons dont plant trees.
However i belive that when she hears about the Others attack she will try to help ( at least I hope so because I like her ). She will not destroy Westeros because she will not have a reason for it what  I mean  is that she generally needs a trigger to act viollently and seriously doubt that a countrie destroied by war and under the invasion of the Others will  "wake the dragon".
I  know that some people dont want her to be a hero but she does have a tendency to try to save people and this will be the first time where she would be able to do it succefully.
In the end I think that she is going to die fighting the Others and perhaps her dragons will die too.
This will be a bittersweet ending because she will save her kingdom but she will never be queen, she will never find home and she will never have a familly (even the people that dont like her can say that this is too  good for her).
If she end ups crazy like her father to the point that someone needs to kill her that will not be a bittersweet ending for me it will just be bitter and I dont think she deserves that.


Sorry if this is not clear enough, english is not my first language.

[Bronn is God]

Considering DWD was one massive justification of her existence (the never ending, pointless characterization - if we can even call it that), Dany is going to play a huge part in the ending. Something which pisses me off to no end, and makes me stop caring about the series all together. There is no hope of her just dying off now. We have fallen too far...