84 replies to this topic

[boojam]

Apple Martini, on 08 February 2012 - 02:01 AM, said:

I imagine any that were not Balerion, Vhagar and Meraxes. Unless they kept a few "stashed" on Dragonstone and brought them over after their conquered everything.

Well that's also puzzles me, apparently there was successful 'dragon raising' in Westeros, the early ones being successful 'war dragons'.
Having some 'stashed' at Dragonstone sounds reasonable too, we don't really know much about Dragonstone's history after Aeogon's conquest until the time of Robert's rebellion.

Edited by boojam, 08 February 2012 - 05:58 AM.

[Eejit]

I think volcanoes may play a part.

Aegon's 3 must have been raised on volcanic Dragonstone. Valyria had quite a few volcanoes from the little we know. The fire wyrms were associated with lava too.
Perhaps the Pit was a feeble attempt to recreate a volcanic crater or empty lava dome at the urging of the Maesters?

If this is the case why not continue to raise dragons at Dragonstone? Perhaps a volcano has to be at a certain point in its cycle to hatch an egg using that method?
The many volcanoes of Valyria should have meant there was usually at least one in such a state whereas the single(?) volcano on Dragonstone is only suitable at long intervals.

Of course there's still the blood/sacrifice aspect... perhaps the hotter the fire used the less sacrifice and magic is required? Lava from a volcano at the correct time may almost negate the need for blood while a more mundane fire requires more.


We don't really have enough hard data to tell though, we've only seen one successful hatching event and only very sketchy details of those that failed.

[redriver]

Signs and Portents was the book written by a maiden daughter of Aenys Targaryen before the Doom.

The Targs moved to Dragonstone before the Doom.

Looks like they preserved their dynasty at the expense of losing their dragon know how.

Is this the book that caused Rhaegar's epiphany?

[Revan Baratheon]

U forgot inbreeding,that might also have contributed to their decline

[Eejit]

Possibly, although it depends on how many of the Targaryen dragons that hatched were related to each other rather than being descended from unrelated eggs brought from Valyria,

[littleWalder]

interesting thread.
concerning the "magic -> dragons" vs. "dragons -> magic" question, I strongly favor the first. We know the Others came back into action before the hatching of Dany's 3, and they seem pretty magical. For me it always seemed that the coming back of magic was what allowed Dany's ritual to succeed, and probably also what gave her the idea to try it in the first place...

[Ygrain]

Also, the mere fact that Targs were Valyrian dragon owners did not mean they ever possessed all the know-how. How many of us, average PC users, do actually understand how the blasted thing works? And should all the IT specialists perish, how many of us would be able to keep it functioning? I can well imagine that a couple of generations later, our descendants would cause a tragedy of the Summerhall scale by trying to revive the magical boxes by diverting lightnings into them, 'cause the ancient mystical texts claimed that electricity was needed :-)

[David C. Hunter]

Ygrain, on 08 February 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

Also, the mere fact that Targs were Valyrian dragon owners did not mean they ever possessed all the know-how. How many of us, average PC users, do actually understand how the blasted thing works? And should all the IT specialists perish, how many of us would be able to keep it functioning? I can well imagine that a couple of generations later, our descendants would cause a tragedy of the Summerhall scale by trying to revive the magical boxes by diverting lightnings into them, 'cause the ancient mystical texts claimed that electricity was needed :-)

Well my computer cant set a village on fire. How could the Valyrians 'Master' the dragons 5,000 years before the Doom and not know everything about them?

[Victaerys]

Inbreeding.

They had only 3 dragons to start with, which is not much of a gene pool, especially of only one of them was female (or are dragons hermaphrodites? I don't recall).

[Pliskin]

Apple Martini, on 08 February 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

Apparently it was possible in Valyria to raise them "out and about" without them destroying everything, so why not in Westeros?

Euh... don't you think the Doom of Valyria had, at least slightly, something to do with dragons ?

[boojam]

David C. Simmons, on 08 February 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

Well my computer cant set a village on fire. How could the Valyrians 'Master' the dragons 5,000 years before the Doom and not know everything about them?

I agree.
It seems implied that at least one or two generations of viable dragons were raised before things went down hill.
Out of 19 how many failed? Were they all raised on Westeros?

I still have a problem with there being so few non-aristocratic Targs around.
They all interbred with Westerosi? And even so why not a large 'ethnic' communities of about?
I mean there seem to be none about.
Or at least George has not mentioned much of anything about non ruling Targs in Westeros.

[redriver]

boojam, on 08 February 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

I agree.
It seems implied that at least one or two generations of viable dragons were raised before things went down hill.
Out of 19 how many failed? Were they all raised on Westeros?

I still have a problem with there being so few non-aristocratic Targs around.
They all interbred with Westerosi? And even so why not a large 'ethnic' communities of about?
I mean there seem to be none about.
Or at least George has not mentioned much of anything about non ruling Targs in Westeros.

Erm,they weren't exactly renowned for breeding with the smallfolk.

You don't see many of them about.

[Raksha the Demon]

Could the climate of Westeros have been cooler than that of Valyria and the dragons did not adapt well to it?  Perhaps the dragons need warmer temperatures to breed and spawn and hatch their eggs.

[Lykos]

Eejit, on 08 February 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

I think volcanoes may play a part.

Aegon's 3 must have been raised on volcanic Dragonstone. Valyria had quite a few volcanoes from the little we know. The fire wyrms were associated with lava too.
Perhaps the Pit was a feeble attempt to recreate a volcanic crater or empty lava dome at the urging of the Maesters?

If this is the case why not continue to raise dragons at Dragonstone? Perhaps a volcano has to be at a certain point in its cycle to hatch an egg using that method?
The many volcanoes of Valyria should have meant there was usually at least one in such a state whereas the single(?) volcano on Dragonstone is only suitable at long intervals.

Of course there's still the blood/sacrifice aspect... perhaps the hotter the fire used the less sacrifice and magic is required? Lava from a volcano at the correct time may almost negate the need for blood while a more mundane fire requires more.


We don't really have enough hard data to tell though, we've only seen one successful hatching event and only very sketchy details of those that failed.

I do favor a connection between volcanos and dragons very much.  There even is a very remote hint to volcanic activity at the place where Drogo fell:  "Her handmaids filled the tub with tepid water that stank of sulfur.."

That is why I wanted to know if we know wich (if any) of the Dragons where hatched on Westeros - Mainland.

It is possible that this crucial knowledge was lost or hidden.

Since the prologue of AFfC with Leo Tyrell, I had the Idea of a connspiracy of the Citadel and the Tyrells, wich I altered to a Hightower Conspiracy with the Maesters, for the following reason.

Viserys I was married to a Hightower.  The LC of the KG Criston Cole persuaded Aegon the II to take the throne wich led to the Dance of the Dragons.
Criston the Kingmaker  was emphatically pointed out  by Jaime when he showed Loras the White book.

It was an easy thing afterwards to convince Aegon III " the Dragonbane" that dragons are to great a danger.


ETA:  I hate the Targaryens if not for the role they´re playing,  for their names can´t spell them. Can´t remember them.  Aegon the who?

Edited by Lykos, 08 February 2012 - 02:06 PM.

[Apple Martini]

Ygrain, on 08 February 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

Also, the mere fact that Targs were Valyrian dragon owners did not mean they ever possessed all the know-how. How many of us, average PC users, do actually understand how the blasted thing works? And should all the IT specialists perish, how many of us would be able to keep it functioning? I can well imagine that a couple of generations later, our descendants would cause a tragedy of the Summerhall scale by trying to revive the magical boxes by diverting lightnings into them, 'cause the ancient mystical texts claimed that electricity was needed :-)

I understand your point, but then, I'm not running around claiming to be a PC genius, taking a computer as my coat of arms, threatening people with viruses if they don't do what I say, using computers to conquer land that doesn't belong to me, or claiming to be "blood of the computer." The Targs do all of that with their dragons, or tried to. And thousands of people don't die if my computer gunks up.

Pliskin, on 08 February 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

Euh... don't you think the Doom of Valyria had, at least slightly, something to do with dragons ?

You mean do I think dragons caused it? I don't know. But was the Doom that had already happened like a 100 years before Aegon landed that much to blame for the Targs screwing up their dragon-raising on Westeros? Did the Doom force them to waste their dragons in war, or make them keep their dragons in the pit? My point was, before the Doom, a "set" of dragon-raising principles seem to have "worked." I'm wondering why the Targs didn't adopt those principles in Westeros.

Edited by Apple Martini, 08 February 2012 - 02:38 PM.

[Baitac]

I love this topic. I think that Dany is a new generation of Targaryen. She doesn't see her dragons as pets, sees them as her children. She took a heck of a chance in walking into the pyre with those eggs. She sees that event as the birth of her dragons as well as herself's. She sees Westeros, not Valyria, as "home." I think that her dragons will go wherever she goes and will adapt, as they have before. These are magical creatures, so I don't know how much present day genetics apply to them, in terms of inbreeding. Also, volcanoes don't seem to be necessary to breed them. We have one lonely Targaryen and three dragons in the world, yet, I am rooting for all four.

[Apple Martini]

Baitac, on 08 February 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

I love this topic. I think that Dany is a new generation of Targaryen. She doesn't see her dragons as pets, sees them as her children. She took a heck of a chance in walking into the pyre with those eggs. She sees that event as the birth of her dragons as well as herself's. She sees Westeros, not Valyria, as "home." I think that her dragons will go wherever she goes and will adapt, as they have before. These are magical creatures, so I don't know how much present day genetics apply to them, in terms of inbreeding. Also, volcanoes don't seem to be necessary to breed them. We have one lonely Targaryen and three dragons in the world, yet, I am rooting for all four.

I agree that she sees them as her children. That didn't stop her from getting a bunch of lackeys to chain them in a pit when they got to be too much for her.

[Baitac]

Apple Martini, on 08 February 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

I agree that she sees them as her children. That didn't stop her from getting a bunch of lackeys to chain them in a pit when they got to be too much for her.

Absolutely. She is contending with a whole lot of stuff, and she has made wrong decisions. At the same time, she did not like having to chain them up at all, and reached a point where she said enough.

[jarl the climber]

Wish we knew a little more dragonlore, hope we get a nice little tutorial when Tyrion finally sees them. I think the confining space of the Dragonpit did play a part in the dragons decline, I also remember someone commenting that the later skulls looked deformed. Perhaps it is possible that the eggs were hatched improperly,is it mentioned how the last few dragons died?

[Eejit]

Baitac, on 08 February 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

Also, volcanoes don't seem to be necessary to breed them.

Not necessary, but quite possibly very helpful.