138 replies to this topic

[David C. Simmons]

Littlefinger has probably done more harm to the stability of the realm then anyone else. I am trying to predict what he is trying to accomplish next. Not necessarily his 'End Game', but what is he trying to do next?

Many believe(including me) through dissecting clues, prophecies, etc. that eventually one side of the final war will be a united Riverlands, the Vale and the North.(Maybe the Iron Island through Asha and Theon, but I doubt they play a factor in the 'final' battle). I firmly believe this, but now it seems like evidence is showing this to be true.

Littlefinger is the Lord Paramount of the Trident. Basically he is the Liege Lord of the Riverlands and Riverrun, the Twins, all pledge allegiance to him(In theory of course). Littlefinger is also the Lord Protector of the Vale. His hold over the Vale is tenuous at best with none of the Lords trusting him and honestly know that he is scheming them. Regardless things will change when Robert dies and Sansa marries Harry. Harry is related to the Arryns which will appease to the Lords of the Vale tremendously. Also, at the wedding Sansa will be wearing Stark colors and when she proclaims to be Sansa Stark it will also appeal to the Lords. Sansa being the niece to Lysa and all..... This can turn out good for Littlefinger because the Lords of the Vale could actually praise him for getting Sansa out of Kings Landing. This is just speculation, but its a win for Littlefinger no matter what. Sansa Stark is now Lady of the Vale and Harry is Lord of the Vale.

Now after this Littlefinger has promised Sansa that they will march on Winterfell and take it back for now they have the loyalty of the Knights of the Vale. In theory, if Harry/Sansa conquer Winterfell from the Boltons/Stannis then that would make Harry and thus Sansa Lord/Lady of the Eyrie as well as Lord/Lady of Winterfell. Which means that they are the liege lords of the The North and the Vale.

Now....if something were to happen to Harry(Whether in battle, poison, assasination, etc) then I would assume that Littlefinger will maneuver and manipulate Sansa(Or at least he thinks he will) into marrying her. If he marries her then in theory he will be come Lord of the eyrie, Lord of Winterfell, Lord of Harrenhal, and Lord Paramount of the Trident.

Which means in theory they would hold the liege lord seat of 2 kingdoms and the riverlands and can unite them into one kingdom. I mean really he could proclaim himself King of the North, Vale and Riverlands theorectically speaking.

However, Sansa is the key because she was the daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, The niece of the Lady of the Vale and granddaughter of the Lord of Riverrun. He needs Sansa for this. Only with her can they unite the 3 territories and it is what I think he is looking to do, relatively speaking. Littlefinger reminds me of Gollum because he is a bastard who many want to see dead, but only with him can the 'heroes' actually save the day.

What happens after this is anyone's guess. What do yall think of this? I could be wrong, but I would like alot of feedback and opinions

[ElizaMartell]

Seeing he pretty much spilled out all his plans in AFFC, I doubt all of it is going to come into fruition. Harry is probably going to turn out to be an ass and run off with Randa with the assistance of the Mountain clans. The Riverlands is still under huge Lannister and Frey power. As soon as he brings Sansa out they'd be out with knives and arrows. And lets not forget the mouse hedge knight who wants to find Sansa Stark for a hefty bounty (aka Cercei).

[OnionAhaiReborn]

David C. Simmons, on 09 February 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

Many believe(including me) through dissecting clues, prophecies, etc. that eventually one side of the final war will be a united Riverlands, the Vale and the North.(Maybe the Iron Island through Asha and Theon, but I doubt they play a factor in the 'final' battle). I firmly believe this, but now it seems like evidence is showing this to be true.

Can you point me to a thread about this theory? I've never seen it before, I'm interested. As for Littlefinger controlling all three, I just doubt it. I'm sure he has a bigger scheme in mind, but who knows if it will work out. We know Rickon is coming back so there goes Sansa's claim to the North. The Lords of the Vale he seems to have a plan for...we'll see. As for the Riverlands, their power is really spent at this point and I am very interested to see what would happen if Littlefinger tried to actually rule there and call his banners or something. Also, he better not step foot in his seat, Harrenhal, that place does bad things to people.

Edited by OnionAhaiReborn, 09 February 2012 - 09:59 AM.

[Free Northman]

All of the above may be Littlefinger's plan, but there a snowball's chance in hell that it will work out.

Because for that to happen, the entire Northern plotline up to now would have to be meaningless, and all the other Stark heirs ahead of Sansa would have to be disqualified.

Stannis would have to lose, Rickon would have to die, Jon would have to stay dead, Bran would have to never return, and Robb's will would have to be ignored.

Nope, Sansa won't get her hands on Winterfell. She may well end up helping to feed the North during Winter, and supporting her brother/cousin who becomes the new King in the North once Robb's will is declared.

But Littlefinger - he will never sit on Eddard's Stark's seat after being the man who betrayed him to his death. Readers will not accept that, and Martin will not take the plot in that direction.

[ElizaMartell]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 09 February 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

Can you point me to a thread about this theory? I've never seen it before, I'm interested. As for Littlefinger controlling all three, I just doubt it. I'm sure he has a bigger scheme in mind, but who knows if it will work out. We know Rickon is coming back so there goes Sansa's claim to the North. The Lords of the Vale he seems to have a plan for...we'll see. As for the Riverlands, their power is really spent at this point and I am very interested to see what would happen if Littlefinger tried to actually rule there and call his banners or something. Also, he better not step foot in his seat, Harrenhal, that place does bad things to people.

Roose Bolton is still alive, can't be that bad.

[David C. Simmons]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 09 February 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

Can you point me to a thread about this theory? I've never seen it before, I'm interested. As for Littlefinger controlling all three, I just doubt it. I'm sure he has a bigger scheme in mind, but who knows if it will work out. We know Rickon is coming back so there goes Sansa's claim to the North. The Lords of the Vale he seems to have a plan for...we'll see. As for the Riverlands, their power is really spent at this point and I am very interested to see what would happen if Littlefinger tried to actual rule there and call his banners or something. Also, he better not step foot in his seat, Harrenhal, that does bad things to people.

HAHA, you see he's avoiding going to harrenhal. Plus with the riverlands weakend it would be easier to control. I mean the freys and lannisters are ass kissers to the thrown and will probably honor littlefinger as their liege lord. Jaime lannister says as much in AFFC. It will also be easier to rule the riverlands with Sansa as his wife. She is granddaughter to Hoster Tully.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

ElizaMartell, on 09 February 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

Roose Bolton is still alive, can't be that bad.

It took some time for Tywin to get his Harrenhal curse too. Roose will die.

[David C. Simmons]

Free Northman, on 09 February 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

All of the above may be Littlefinger's plan, but there a snowball's chance in hell that it will work out.

Because for that to happen, the entire Northern plotline up to now would have to be meaningless, and all the other Stark heirs ahead of Sansa would have to be disqualified.

Stannis would have to lose, Rickon would have to die, Jon would have to stay dead, Bran would have to never return, and Robb's will would have to be ignored.

Nope, Sansa won't get her hands on Winterfell. She may well end up helping to feed the North during Winter, and supporting her brother/cousin who becomes the new King in the North once Robb's will is declared.

But Littlefinger - he will never sit on Eddard's Stark's seat after being the man who betrayed him to his death. Readers will not accept that, and Martin will not take the plot in that direction.

No I agree. I didnt say it would happen, I was just trying to figure out what Littlefinger is trying to do.
But I also believe that the North, Vale and Riverlands will eventually unite and that Littlefinger will at least jump start it.

[ElizaMartell]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 09 February 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

It took some time for Tywin to get his Harrenhal curse too. Roose will die.

B-but that would break Fat Walda's heart.

[Lummel]

David C. Simmons, on 09 February 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

Which means in theory they would hold the liege lord seat of 2 kingdoms and the riverlands and can unite them into one kingdom. I mean really he could proclaim himself King of the North, Vale and Riverlands theorectically speaking.

My problem with this is what does Littlefinger get out of it? North, Vale and Riverlands isn't a natural unit. The riverlands wouldn't be able to hold out against invasion from the rest of westeros. The riverlands and the North have suffered badly in the recent fighting. Military force would be necessary to secure the north and the riverlands (against Kings Landing) As a new kingdom it looks as though it would be stillborn.

I don't see Littlefinger playing midwife to achieve such a poor result. His chance of loosing his head on the chopping block seems too high for the opportunity to call himself King Petyr the First for a few months.

I assume from Littlefingers comments to Sansa about cersei that it is not enough for him just to gain power. He wants power for some reason or to accomplish something. Whether he wants power to achieve something more than revenge on the Starks and to sleep with Tully women is I think the big question. Presumably out manoevreing more powerful nobles flatters his ego - but does he want even something more than that?

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

ElizaMartell, on 09 February 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

Seeing he pretty much spilled out all his plans in AFFC, I doubt all of it is going to come into fruition. Harry is probably going to turn out to be an ass and run off with Randa with the assistance of the Mountain clans. The Riverlands is still under huge Lannister and Frey power. As soon as he brings Sansa out they'd be out with knives and arrows. And lets not forget the mouse hedge knight who wants to find Sansa Stark for a hefty bounty (aka Cercei).

You believed littlefinger when he said that?

I'm not sure the riverlands aren't more of a liability than anything. Look what happens to Rob, he gets sucked in. Anyway, the riverlands, the vale and the north were already supposed to be united and that was Hoster Tully's doing.... Littlefinger took it for his own as revenge for being banished and split open.

Edited by Howland Reed's Wrath, 09 February 2012 - 10:26 AM.

[ElizaMartell]

Howland Reed, on 09 February 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

You believed him when he said that?

Believed who? Ser Mouse or Littlefinger? If its the later, I find it reasonable never to trust Littlefinger apart from when he's telling you not to trust him.

[Fire Eater]

To respond to the OP, Littlefinger isn't that dumb, he's knows he'll never be able to put a crown on his head especially due to his low birth, but with the North, the Vale and the Riverlands and other forms of influence he can be the Kingmaker, or the power behind the throne.

[Alexia]

I think that what LF wants is to be a Kingmaker, and a power behind the throne.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

fireeater22, on 09 February 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

To respond to the OP, Littlefinger isn't that dumb, he's knows he'll never be able to put a crown on his head especially due to his low birth, but with the North, the Vale and the Riverlands and other forms of influence he can be the Kingmaker, or the power behind the throne.

What? Are you crazy? He dismantled, the lannisters, the arryns, the starks and you don't think he can sit the Iron Throne. Just look at what he does in the Vale when people try to object to his low birth.

[ElizaMartell]

Howland Reed, on 09 February 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

What? Are you crazy? He dismantled, the lannisters, the arryns, the starks and you don't think he can sit the Iron Throne. Just look at what he does in the Vale when people try to object to his low birth.

I almost forgot you stanned for Littlefinger. I suppose he's going to destroy Dany and her dragons too all the while singing 'The Rains of Castamere'?

And how did he dismantle the Lannisters? They seem to be still pretty active. Or did you get an advanced copy of TWOW?

Edited by ElizaMartell, 09 February 2012 - 10:34 AM.

[David C. Simmons]

Lummel, on 09 February 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

My problem with this is what does Littlefinger get out of it? North, Vale and Riverlands isn't a natural unit. The riverlands wouldn't be able to hold out against invasion from the rest of westeros. The riverlands and the North have suffered badly in the recent fighting. Military force would be necessary to secure the north and the riverlands (against Kings Landing) As a new kingdom it looks as though it would be stillborn.

I don't see Littlefinger playing midwife to achieve such a poor result. His chance of loosing his head on the chopping block seems too high for the opportunity to call himself King Petyr the First for a few months.

I assume from Littlefingers comments to Sansa about cersei that it is not enough for him just to gain power. He wants power for some reason or to accomplish something. Whether he wants power to achieve something more than revenge on the Starks and to sleep with Tully women is I think the big question. Presumably out manoevreing more powerful nobles flatters his ego - but does he want even something more than that?

I think he wants to do more then revenge and Sansa. But look at history. The alliances were already united to fight the Mad King. The riverlands and the North were united through Brandon/Ned Stark and Catelyn Tully. Ned and Robert grew up in the Vale and Jon Arryn was close to them. Lysa Tully married Jon Arryn. I do not believe it is such a stretch that this cannot happen. Plus it could be what the Citadel wants, hahaha.

It could be that the Citadel suggested the marriages between those three families to unite them and take down the Mad King. Now that the dragons are returning soon the Citadel can be 'suggesting' the alliance again.

Edited by David C. Simmons, 09 February 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[Gurkhal]

ElizaMartell, on 09 February 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

And how did he dismantle the Lannisters? They seem to be still pretty active. Or did you get an advanced copy of TWOW?

I throw in with this. That creep hasn't taken House Lannister out of business yet - although I fear that Cersei may make a shot at it soon enough if Varys gets as he wants.

Edited by Gurkhal, 09 February 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

ElizaMartell, on 09 February 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

I almost forgot you stanned for Littlefinger. I suppose he's going to destroy Dany and her dragons too all the while singing 'The Rains of Castamere'?

And how did he dismantle the Lannisters? They seem to be still pretty active. Or did you get an advanced copy of TWOW?

No I just don't find Dany or her dragons the least bit compelling. As I said in my "i love littlefinger" thread that his biggest weakness is an apparent ignorance of magic. But he could probably just hire a faceless man to take care of her.

Well he gets them go to war against The Starks and Tullys thereby having two armies smashed. In the process Jamie is maimed and Cersei's spell over him broken. Joffrey is killed, sealing littlefinger's alliance with highgarden. Tyrion is removed as an opposing force. And Cersei is left run the realm into the ground and make enemies from Braavos, to the reach, to the high septon.

As Lady Dustin says in a ADWD "the Lannisters are a spent force"

Edited by Howland Reed's Wrath, 09 February 2012 - 10:45 AM.

[Skeksi]

I still think LF should be trying to cement his hold on the Riverlands- currently, he's in charge of the Vale, one of the few kingdoms relatively untouched by war. A lot of the Lords Paramount believe Lysa should have backed up Robb in the War of the Five Kings. He has the power to send food to the Riverlands, and gain support from them, and currently, since the Lannisters believe he is on their side, they have no cause for complaint. Then when Sansa is revealed, he has support from the Riverlands already in place, rather than trying to gain their support with the Lannisters after his head.

As for what he's after... It wouldn't surprise me if he intends to unite the North/ Riverlands/ Vale through an alliance with Harry and Sansa. I wouldn't be surprised if he intended to make Sansa the queen of the alliance, and be the power behind the throne, as it were. As to whether it will succeed-


- Obviously we know that Rickon and Bran are still alive, weakening Sansa's claim to Winterfell, and Stannis seems pretty determined not to see "Lady Lannister", as he calls her, claim Winterfell. However, I can see the Northmen willingly following her, as Eddard Stark's daughter, and apparent heir, at least as a regent for the time being. She DOES have links to the former rulers of all three kingdoms (daughter of Ned, granddaughter of Hoster, cousin to Robert Arryn), unlike Jon, Bran is currently busy being a tree, and Rickon is a very young child. In some ways, perhaps she is an ideal candidate for ruler of the North, with Harry, Littlefinger and Rickon (?) as the individual lords of the three kingdoms, who knows?

- Petyr's claim over the RIverlands will, I think, remain purely theoretical until he does something to make it otherwise. I know that initially, his title was a method by which he could marry Lysa Arryn, but it seems silly not to try and cement his claim using the resources at his disposal.

I'm actually quite interested to see how this plot works out, and how far it gets.