306 replies to this topic

[ElizaMartell]

This thread comes from some interesting discussion flowing from the Littlefingers, Vale, North and Riverlands thread. The key question being, are the Lannisters still in the game? The death of Tywin and recently Kevan has opened up some gaps in the Lannister leadership, however is it enough to think the Lannisters are in trouble? With regards to the Iron Throne the Tyrells are still hungry for close council position but this may change if the Hightower and Tarly's switch alliances to 'Aegon'. The Dorne naturally hate them and most of the country is in tatters. However the Lannisters still command a lot of power and influence. So what's the verdict?

[brashcandy]

They are still in the game, but as individual players now, pitted against each other. The days of the Lannisters as a powerful family are long gone, most recently due to the utterly inane decision to have Cersei do a walk of shame in KL.

[ElizaMartell]

How does making Cersei do the walk damage the Lannisters as a whole? Although I feel it was morally unacceptable and deeply disturbing, how does this action translate to affecting Lannister power?

[LiamBridge]

Well Cersei has now lost the ability to make people fear and respect her. Just as she herself says in her POV's if i remember right.

[mor2]

IMO GRRM has made a perfect setup for Tyrion to finally get what he always wanted. If not it would be interesting to see Jaime try his father boots and if anything else fails we you should never underestimate Cersi skill to climb her way to the top.

Edited by mor2, 09 February 2012 - 01:02 PM.

[Lord Damian]

LiamBridge, on 09 February 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Well Cersei has now lost the ability to make people fear and respect her. Just as she herself says in her POV's if i remember right.

Who ever controls the King (especially when he is a minor child), controls the Iron Throne. With Regent Great Uncle Kevan out of the way, Cersei will take over as Regent and will have power but with one catch. How many Lannister troops + Loyal Kingsguards + Loyal Goldcloaks does she have against Tyrell men in the same city/keep. We do know that a host ot Tyrell men are headed to face Aegon and Connington but how much does that weaken their forces in Kings Landing. The Power in the Riverlands is now in the hands of the Freys for now so, other than Gold and the potential possession of Northern hostages, the Lannisters are cut off with the Riverlands between them in the Rock and KL.

[Alexia]

brashcandy, on 09 February 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

They are still in the game, but as individual players now, pitted against each other. The days of the Lannisters as a powerful family are long gone, most recently due to the utterly inane decision to have Cersei do a walk of shame in KL.

The Walk of Shame didn't help anything, but their power is completely propped up by the Tyrells at this point and the rest of the family is very likely to blame the Tyrells for what happened to Cersei (nothing happened to Margaery). They are in the game, but they will be fighting among themselves and their allies. They aren't capable of taking on the Targaryens, or the Vale, or the North anymore.

[LiamBridge]

Correct me if im wrong, but even if she wins the trial isnt she going back to casterly rock? Plus isnt she a laughing stock among the small folk since she did her walk of shame?

[ElizaMartell]

LiamBridge, on 09 February 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

Correct me if im wrong, but even if she wins the trial isnt she going back to casterly rock? Plus isnt she a laughing stock among the small folk since she did her walk of shame?

Probably the small folk of King's Landing though news can spread to other parts of the country. Its hilarous that Kevan was supposed to know Tywin well however he didn't seem to grasp at how much he hated being laughed at. Cercei in this position would have made Tywin set fire to King's Landing.

[Lord Damian]

Who is going to make Cersei go back to Casterly Rock?, Kevan, nope, gone. Jaime cannot stop her if he is not there. If the Tyrells try to force her, Ungregor will begin to kill people and the Kingsguard, whatever is left of them will be under her control.

[David C. Simmons]

dammit, beat me to it Eliza!

LiamBridge, on 09 February 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

Correct me if im wrong, but even if she wins the trial isnt she going back to casterly rock? Plus isnt she a laughing stock among the small folk since she did her walk of shame?

She would have, but Kevan is dead now and she willl remain Queen Regent if she wins.

The Lannisters are finished but Cersei will not go down without a fight. Ungregor will kill at least 40 people.

Edited by David C. Simmons, 09 February 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[ElizaMartell]

You make UnGregor sound like Frankenstein.

And I wonder if the Tyrell's will get suspicous about the man behind the helmet?

Edited by ElizaMartell, 09 February 2012 - 01:28 PM.

[CC-Kingmaker]

well, I think as a whole the lannister house has fallen. jaime forsought everything, cersei will be pardoned but never the same. Tyrion's advance will be different and an inaccurate representation for the house.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

They are still in the game. But as pawns, stage and punching balls, not as players anymore. Competen leaders dead or beyond the Narrow Sea, armies annihilated, shamed, enemies everywhere, no influence to speak of left. The best they can hope for is fleeing to Casterly Rock with tail between the legs and reducing their losses. But being replaced as Lords Paramount or even being annihilated as a House is on the table, too.

[The Sunset King]

The Lannister grip of King's Landing seems to be drawing to a close as enemies multiple and the High Septon attempts to tear apart his foes from within. Most likely is that Aegon or eventually Stannis will cease control of King's Landing in the near future. Sooner or later Casterly Rock itself may simply declare for someone else (if the cause becomes hopeless and/or Tommen is killed).

Cersei seems very close to be totally done. She may well meet her end in the next book. However, she is the type of person that would try to go out in a blazing flash, perhaps like Aerys planned to do.

Edited by The Sunset King, 09 February 2012 - 01:40 PM.

[the Scorpion Knight]

they lost their unity the moment jaime said "no I won't follow your plans" to tywin
and the war the moment Tywin
EDit: forgot to type DIED

Edited by the Scorpion Knight, 09 February 2012 - 02:04 PM.

[ElizaMartell]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 09 February 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

They are still in the game. But as pawns, stage and punching balls, not as players anymore. Competen leaders dead or beyond the Narrow Sea, armies annihilated, shamed, enemies everywhere, no influence to speak of left. The best they can hope for is fleeing to Casterly Rock with tail between the legs and reducing their losses. But being replaced as Lords Paramount or even being annihilated as a House is on the table, too.

Who would annihilate the Lannisters though? Is there a strong enough army after all the wars to do that?

[Alexia]

ElizaMartell, on 09 February 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

Who would annihilate the Lannisters though? Is there a strong enough army after all the wars to do that?

Dragons can do it, and I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrion turned out to be an architect of this.

[another bastard]

They are so done for, especially when Cersei's back in charge. Who else do they have? Tyrion's pretty much permanently alienated from his family, Jaime's off ... somewhere ... and is feeling pretty estranged himself, Lancel's becoming an unhinged religious fanatic, Kevan's other children are still pretty young IIRC, and even Genna's a sitting duck at Riverrun. And they've pissed off pretty much everyone by now. They've still got all that gold in CR, though, so they can make a comeback in the post-series future after Martyn or someone new takes over (I have a hard time seeing Tyrion being accepted back after murdering Tywin and supposedly Joffrey, or Jaime even surviving the series).

[brashcandy]

ElizaMartell, on 09 February 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

How does making Cersei do the walk damage the Lannisters as a whole? Although I feel it was morally unacceptable and deeply disturbing, how does this action translate to affecting Lannister power?

Because much of Lannister power was symbolic. Sure, they had gold and might to back it up, but the glamour and mystery surrounding them has slowly been eroding: Jaime losing his hand, Tywin being killed on the privy, and now the degradation of the Lannister Queen. Power resides where people think it is, and a lot of that is made of respect and fear. How do you legitimately respect a woman whom you've just seen paraded naked through the streets?