Heresy 6

[hotweaselsoup]

He was: "A wild stallion will buck and kick when a man tries to mount him... but a horse that had known one rider will accept another. Young or old, these birds have all been ridden." And then after he's had a go... "Do all the birds have singers in them?" "All" Lord Brynden said...

Its quite clear from what's quite a lengthy passage that Bloodraven is indeed only talking about the ravens in the cave at the time rather than ravens in general and that the shadows aren't just those of ordinary skinchangers, like say Varamyr but Singers. That doesn't necessarily answer the longevity bit but perhaps its a two way exchange with the raven gaining the singer's (comparative) longevity in return for hosting.

Yes, I can buy that Bloodraven was referring only to the ravens in the cave, but what are we to make of the flock that follows Coldhands, or those that assemble at Raventree? Do we suppose that all of these birds have the remnants of singers in them as well, or are they all being skinchanged by just a few? As the solo Varamyr controlled six creatures, perhaps there are just a few singers still alive controlling many hundreds of the ravens (per FanTasy's theory)? There is maybe also a parallel here with the relatively few (that we know of) white walkers controlling many wights.

We do know that the shade of the singer that Bran encounters in his raven is "long dead" according to Bloodraven. I originally interpreted this "long dead" as meaning dead for many, many years - more than the lifespan of your average raven, at least - which is why I started thinking that the singers might be hopping from bird to bird after death.

[Eyron]

You know, hws I think it could work. The bird does not really even have to die for the skinchanger to jump out, we have seen it a few times ourselves.

Ravens lay eggs, a skinchanger could slip into the unborn bird and live on through the generations, or go into a younger bird but that feels more unethical maybe :) Leaving the old used one for a younger fresher...

____

As pointed out by BC, not every raven has a skinchanger in them, but the thousands gathering at Raventree Hall is still something extraordinary. Whatever it is, something is special about that place which attracts them.

[Black Crow]

Like the egg idea. I wonder if it works with dragons and is why Targaryen babies slept with them.

Page 20 already, doesn't time fly when you're having fun.

[Eyron]

I was thinking about dragoneggs on another subject and realised that birds lay eggs too :)

I had not thought about it before in this context. But I'm sure it's not the exact same procedure as with dragons, since the ravens hatch naturally, not by magic, or I assume so in any case.

I think the dragons are hatched by sacrificing a child and perhaps something more, it could be that the child's spirit remains in the dragon, I got that impression with Drogon and Rhaego but it's a feeling so far. I think hotweaselsoup wrote about this in an earlier thread, so this is a continuation of that. If we look at the first generations of Targaryens that came to Westeros they didn't have many children, this could be why. At the time of Aegon I there were only three dragons, at the time of Jaehaerys I, there were six, and very few children that lived to adulthood. After that we don't know if there were any more dragons hatched, for a few generations. They wouldn't need more than six I can only guess, and the dragons usually live forever.

A few generations down all dragons are said to have been killed or died, when Aegon III the dragonbane lived.

Hatching dragons via fire and bloodmagic could be an approximation to skinchanging. Same with the faceless men. We may have discussed this before, I know it was in another thread in the forums at least.

Sorry if I'm taking us OT again!

This thread is a wonderful way to pass time BC :)

[Lummel]

so we've got a kind of transmigration of souls going on from skinchangers to ravens eggs from Targaryen princes to dragons? The transmigrated soul necessary to bring life to the egg?

With the ravens the soul seems to be intact, if it is that way with the dragons then Dany had best watch out for the dragon that MMD is now inhabiting!

ETA well I suppose we already know about the transmigration of the children's souls into the weirwoods...so why not the eggs too?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I think the dragons are hatched by sacrificing a child and perhaps something more

The problem I see with this idea is that sacrificing a child would be a pretty memorable event, and yet the Targs in Westeros seem to have forgotten how dragons were hatched. There were 19 dragon skulls in the Red Keep, so we know at least 16 dragons were hatched in Westeros after the Conquest (unless there were juvenile dragons on Dragonstone at the time of the Conquest that did not participate). How do you forget how to do something that you already did successfully 16 times, when that particular act is the single most vital factor in your families' power base? It would also be awfully difficult to hide child sacrifice from the rest of Westeros.

This is why I think dragon eggs were hatched naturally by dragons. The problem the later Targs had was they didn't know how to hatch a dragon egg without mama's help.

[Eyron]

It may not be necessary, but it would make the Targaryen child live forever, and the dragon loyal to the Targs perhaps. A second persons life may be necessary to work the magic. Or it could be wrong entirely :)

I hope Mirri is not one of the dragons! I doubt she is.

ETA: Ibbison, I don't think child sacrifice would be hard to get away with, newborns often don't survive.

The later dragons did not live long, or were stunted, maybe they were not hatched properly? It could be that the sacrifice is just needed when there is no mama dragon around, I suggested once before that this procedure was only necessary to do for the first firedragon. And now it was necessary again when there were no dragons around.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Like the egg idea. I wonder if it works with dragons and is why Targaryen babies slept with them.

Perhaps it doesn't work with dragons, but the Targs thought it might. They were probably pretty desperate to hatch a dragon egg by that time, and willing to try almost anything. Plus, it couldn't hurt anything.

[Elaena Targaryen]

This is why I think dragon eggs were hatched naturally by dragons. The problem the later Targs had was they didn't know how to hatch a dragon egg without mama's help.

Thanks for bringing this up! I checked the wiki on the Targaryen King where the last dragon died during his reign and it appears to be very possible that the dragons hatched the eggs and the Targaryens had lost how to do it themselves long ago.....

As king, Aegon III ruled long and well in the Seven Kingdoms, though he is often blamed for the death of the last dragon, having had a great distaste for the creatures since he witnessed his mother be devoured by his uncle's beast.^[3] Although the maesters may have played a part in the death of the last dragons, Aegon III became known as "Aegon the Dragonbane," despite his later efforts to obtain dragon eggs. He had nine mages cross the sea to attempt to hatch his remaining eggs.^[4] Aegon was said to have always walked with a great grief, and the folly of his sons nearly tore the realm apart. Two of his sons reigned as kings: Daeron I, called the Young Dragon, and Baelor I, called Baelor the Blessed. Among his daughters were the three "Maidens in the Tower," Daena the Defiant,

We also know his son Baelor the Blessed prayed over a cache of dragon eggs for half a year, but his prayers went unanswered. It does seem that the Targaryens did not have any idea how to hatch the deagon eggs. Here's the link to the wiki if you need it. http://awoiaf.wester...x.php/Aegon_III

[hotweaselsoup]

It may not be necessary, but it would make the Targaryen child live forever, and the dragon loyal to the Targs perhaps. A second persons life may be necessary to work the magic. Or it could be wrong entirely :)

I hope Mirri is not one of the dragons! I doubt she is.

ETA: Ibbison, I don't think child sacrifice would be hard to get away with, newborns often don't survive.

The later dragons did not live long, or were stunted, maybe they were not hatched properly? It could be that the sacrifice is just needed when there is no mama dragon around, I suggested once before that this procedure was only necessary to do for the first firedragon. And now it was necessary again when there were no dragons around.

Yay, my favorite baby-sacrificing theory! I think the stunted dragons support the idea that the Targs were infusing the dragon eggs with their unborn children: generations of Targ inbreeding led to malformed human embryos, which when infused into the dragon eggs led to equally malformed dragons. Maybe at this point the ruling Targs realized that the brother/sister thing was a problem, so they began looking outside the family for consorts? But I think the Targ gene - the blood of the dragon, if you will - is like the Stark skinchanging gene, and perhaps became too diluted to produce dragons? And then the spells/ritual, etc. was forgotten over time (like much else in the ASoIaF world!).

I do like the idea of the CotF going from egg to raven egg, although I wonder about an "adult" soul being transferred into an embryonic egg. I think the human embryo ---> dragon egg works in part because we have a like ---> like situation: a proto-human merging with a proto-dragon. (The like --> like creates the best match, I think, which is why I believe Rickon has such a strong bond with Shaggydog: they were both "pups" when they connected. It's also why I think the younger Stark wargs had a relatively easier time bonding with their wolves, as compared to their more fully-formed - and hence less malleable - older siblings.) I guess I wonder what it might be like if an adult consciousness was infused into an embryo, as in an egg? I wonder, because I have an amorphous theory that perhaps one or more of those that were said to have died at Summerhall were in fact transferred into the dragon eggs after all - all unbeknownst to the survivors - and we actually may have viable dragon eggs (an egg with an Egg trapped inside??) floating around the world somewhere. The woods witch did say that the promised prince would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, right? Who says that line cannot go backwards in time?

I also don't think Mirri Maz Duur is one of Dany's dragons. I think the vision of the dragon springing from her forehead was a metaphor for the fact that it was MMD's knowledge of blood magic which allowed Dany to hatch her dragons, but not that MMD became one herself. Other than that, though, the "math" of which human death/transmogrification gave life to which dragon, and in what proportion...I'm not sure.

---

Do you think the ravens that assemble at Raventree are waiting for the petrified weirwood to be brought back to life, so that they can join with it (at long last)? A bit like the petrified dragons eggs being brought back to life after so long.

[Lummel]

I think the ravens at Raventree are waiting for something or have some particular connection with the place. I imagine there was a greenseeing or warging tradition at raventree that explains why they held to the old gods when the other riverlanders turned to the seven - though the rivalry with the brackens probably was also important here. So I suspect that many of those ravens are inhabited with the souls of earlier blackwoods so they naturally hang about in their ancestral hall.

[Stark@heart]

IIRC Dany used to curl up in bed with her dragon eggs too. I think its a bonding. A true Targ/blood of the dragon feels the heat/life inside of the egg and perhaps the dragon feels its rider. Probably a much deeper bond is formed when the egg is placed in the cradle with a babe.

I think that dragons used to hatch their own eggs with flame. We've been told that nothing burns a hot as dragons breath expect for the sun. So, if you have dragon eggs and no dragon the only way you could hope to hatch a dragon is through magic. Which I guess hadn't been used in so long that it was forgotten by the Targs but it's right there in their House Motto Fire & Blood.

That's the secret the Targs forgot. Interesting that a certain Red Priestess, currently at the Wall, has that knowledge.

I think it was the combination of the fire, Khal Drogo's undefeated Kings blood ( his father was also a Khal and apparently undefeated, so that maybe important too) and the life of MMD ( one who knows magic) that allowed Dany to score the trifecta and hatch 3 dragons eggs at one time.

Like her walking into the fire and not burning, something that could probably never happen again and happened only because of the unique, once in a lifetime set of circumstances that surrounded it.

Maybe Targs that slept with their eggs developed the kind of warg bond that the Starks and others connected to the blood of the FM are capable of.

Oops, I've gotten off topic talking so much about Dany but I think the ravens that have dreamers are similar to dragons that have riders. What if the souls of dead Targs also continued on in their dragons? That would be interesting. If there are older dragons around or a long dormant one, it could have a Targ in it. Like a raven can.

It's kinda out there but something that been bouncing around in my head. From their description as tall and lithe, like a Targarreyn.

CPT / New Other Idea

What if.... Dragonriders who had bonded/warged with their dragons entered them when they died. Then later the dragon dies. The spirt of the Targ or dragonrider has gone from flesh made Fire - entering the dragon to Fire made flesh- living inside the dragon. Now the dragon is gone and they are nothing but spirit, but they have known magic/lived inside it. They are the opposite of what they were. They are Fire turned to Ice and their souls/spirits are condemned to the Land of Always Winter.

Maybe they are rising now to help clear the way for Dany? Or maybe they know nothing of Dany but knew of the comet's coming and knew that dragons/magic would once again be part of the world and they would grow stronger and could once again go south against the Wall and the Realm beyond. Maybe they're still playing the Game of Thrones?

[Eyron]

Yay, my favorite baby-sacrificing theory!

:lmao: I just stopped to look at this sentence out of context! Hysterical...

I think the stunted dragons support the idea that the Targs were infusing the dragon eggs with their unborn children: generations of Targ inbreeding led to malformed human embryos, which when infused into the dragon eggs led to equally malformed dragons. Maybe at this point the ruling Targs realized that the brother/sister thing was a problem, so they began looking outside the family for consorts? But I think the Targ gene - the blood of the dragon, if you will - is like the Stark skinchanging gene, and perhaps became too diluted to produce dragons? And then the spells/ritual, etc. was forgotten over time (like much else in the ASoIaF world!).

Now this last part I definitely agree with. I'm not sure about the first, I think it could have something to do with the sacrifices, maybe they stopped sacrificing to hatch the dragons. I'm thinking that in Valyria a lot of slaves died down in the mines in the volcanoes and it was also a sacrifice that the dragonlords benefited from. But the theory of blood being important fits with the genealogy of Aegon III, his mother Rhaenyra was half Arryn-half Targaryen, and Aegon III had a non-Targ father, and he married a Velaryon (which could matter, we don't know).

I do like the idea of the CotF going from egg to raven egg, although I wonder about an "adult" soul being transferred into an embryonic egg. I think the human embryo ---> dragon egg works in part because we have a like ---> like situation: a proto-human merging with a proto-dragon. (The like --> like creates the best match, I think, which is why I believe Rickon has such a strong bond with Shaggydog: they were both "pups" when they connected. It's also why I think the younger Stark wargs had a relatively easier time bonding with their wolves, as compared to their more fully-formed - and hence less malleable - older siblings.) I guess I wonder what it might be like if an adult consciousness was infused into an embryo, as in an egg? I wonder, because I have an amorphous theory that perhaps one or more of those that were said to have died at Summerhall were in fact transferred into the dragon eggs after all - all unbeknownst to the survivors - and we actually may have viable dragon eggs (an egg with an Egg trapped inside??) floating around the world somewhere. The woods witch did say that the promised prince would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, right? Who says that line cannot go backwards in time?

Ha! Egg trapped in an egg :lol: I kind of hope not, poor Egg. It's an interesting theory about Summerhall, I sense something important happened there but I have no ideas on that incidence myself. I think it could have something to do with Rhaegar who seemed to be an old soul living in a young body to me. I can't wait until we get to read about it...

I agree it's probably easier for a child to learn skinchanging than for an adult, but it could be very different for the Children, and they don't have to jump into the actual embryo I suppose, they could wait until the bird has grown a little? We are really speculating in the dark here, he he.

Do you think the ravens that assemble at Raventree are waiting for the petrified weirwood to be brought back to life, so that they can join with it (at long last)? A bit like the petrified dragons eggs being brought back to life after so long.

I think in similar lines as Lummel on this, I think the ravens were the animals of the Blackwoods, and I think that is why it came naturally to Bloodraven, they are probably his animals of choice. Before that it's possible that the Children could have lived there, and maybe those ones were using ravens specifically, the Children could have some system of *division of labour* perhaps, different clans - different animals or traditions. The wood dancers seem to have been one different group for example, with a specific purpose. But there could be many other explanations...

[Lummel]

Hmm...which came first the Egg or the egg?

I also thought that the targaryen's gave eggs to their babies to sleep with so that they could bond.

[Eyron]

Oho! In this case maybe the hatchling really came before the egg though... sorry! :drunk: