171 replies to this topic

[HannibalStark]

Ghost714, on 13 March 2012 - 05:31 AM, said:

Care to explain that statement? Don't get me wrong, I don't think Jon will an ice dragon at all, but a fire Direwolf?

There has been zero discussion of ice dragons in this series (actual books, not the threads)  so far as I can tell.  All I was trying to say that IMO,  (since I do not believe ice dragons exist in this series) calling him a fire wolf has just as much validity calling him an ice dragon.

I just can't see it.  "Fire" dragons have been discussed from the beginning and how fire=dragon, dragon=fire.  There is zero evidence or reason for a new kind of dragon, not discussed previously in the books, (or even aluded to) to suddenly appear, whether in the form of an actual dragon, or as Jon Snow.

The others/white walkers = ice    dragons = fire  

I don't see the white walkers having anything to do with fire and I don't see dragons having anything to do with ice/snow.  


So no, I do not think fire wolf is really a valid label. I just used it to try to show how I felt about the term ice dragon, as it relates to this series.

[HannibalStark]

Ghost714, on 13 March 2012 - 05:31 AM, said:

Care to explain that statement? Don't get me wrong, I don't think Jon will an ice dragon at all, but a fire Direwolf?

No, I do not really think Jon would/should be called a fire wolf... just that, IMO, it has just as much validity as calling him an ice dragon meaning that I do not think either one is appropriate.


I just replied in more detail but lost it all when I tried to post so I will try to be brief.

In the series, as far as I can tell, there has been zero discussion of ice/snow having anything to do with dragons.  Not even alluded to.  Since the first book, fire has been consistantly linked to dragons.  fire=dragons /dragons=fire   Ice has never been connected to or even aluded to in connection with dragons (as far as I can tell- I strongly think that the Ice Dragon has zero to do with this series, but it is a neat idea)

To all of a sudden link ice with dragons in the 6th book, doesn't make sense to me, especially when ice/snow is so strongly associated with the others/whitewalkers.

ice/snow=white walkers   fire=dragons

I think fire will have as much to do with whitewalkers as snow/ice will have to do with dragons.

Just like calling Jon an ice dragon makes as much sense to me as calling him a fire wolf, meaning neither makes sense.

[Black Crow]

Ice dragons are in fact mentioned in the book(s) on various occasions. Jon in particular recalls being told stories of the Ice Dragon(s) presumably by Old Nan, and at one point there's reference to a constellation called the Ice Dragon with a bright blue star for its eye.

It is therefore canon.

As to Jon; assuming that R+L=J then he is indeed the Ice Dragon because Targayens are Dragons and Starks are Kings of Winter

[HannibalStark]

Black Crow, on 13 March 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

Ice dragons are in fact mentioned in the book(s) on various occasions. Jon in particular recalls being told stories of the Ice Dragon(s) presumably by Old Nan, and at one point there's reference to a constellation called the Ice Dragon with a bright blue star for its eye.

It is therefore canon.

As to Jon; assuming that R+L=J then he is indeed the Ice Dragon because Targayens are Dragons and Starks are Kings of Winter

You are right, I mispoke about the 3 instances where the word ice dragon is mentioned  1) as a constellation  2) as wind being like the breath of an ice dragon 3) going into the belly of an ice dragon  (are there any other references?)

These all seem like ways to describe what he is talking about. There are two metaphors and the name of a constellation, and in a world where dragons existed it doesn't seem abnormal that things would be described as being "like a dragon"    also considering  G.R.R.M has a book called Ice Dragon, maybe he is paying homage to it.  Making that book connect to this series does not at all seem logical or rational to me.    But if you want to say that the fact that the phrase ice dragon is mentioned, (as a constellation and x2 as a methaphor) and this leaves open the possibility that it is within the realm of possibility to be developed further, ok.

Is there any mention of anyone having an ice dragon?  Is there any mention of a family bringing dragons from somewhere else to conquer?  Have the real life dragons the Targs are known to have had and Dany has now have anything to do with ice/snow?   Does anyone else have a dragon as their sigil?    I can't see it.

Maybe you can help me see how ice dragons will exist.

If you mean only that Jon Snow is an Ice Dragon because he is Stark and Targ... then I don't see it.   It doesn't seem to fit and I think Fire Wolf would be just as appropriate as Ice Dragon.   Im not trying to flame this thread, I just really can't see it.

[Black Crow]

The references are specifically to an Ice Dragon, not "like" a dragon but an actual Ice Dragon.

The Starks are Kings of Winter, of Ice not Fire and ultimately in the conflict between the two Jon will represent Ice in fighting against Dany and her fire dragons in order to restore the balance upset by the victory of the original Azor Ahai. So far we've seen the Red Lot/Followers of the Light, but now in ADwD we've started to see that there's another side rooted in darkness and that the Starks are part of it and this is an underlying theme that will develop over the remaining books until it all comes together.

Jon may never take on the physical form of an Ice Dragon but its his destiny to slay the three Fire Dragons just as the original Ice Dragon did.

[Uncat]

Rhaegar Targaryen, on 26 February 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

ultimately, i think the dragons are going to have to be the ones to defeat the others. (or Bran). I am excited to see how many Others there actually are. from the scenes north of the wall with the reeds and bran they seem to be rising out of the snow by the dozens. Think the wall will hold 100,000 Others..?

Here is my guess for you. Roundabout fifty white walkers (Others) would be a nice number. That would match the number of children still alive, as far as we were told by Leaf in the cave

[Uncat]

Black Crow, on 13 March 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

Jon may never take on the physical form of an Ice Dragon but its his destiny to slay the three Fire Dragons just as the original Ice Dragon did.

Maybe it's just this: tree dragonheads you need to chop of to finaly get rid of the beasts

[Ghost714]

Black Crow, on 13 March 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

The references are specifically to an Ice Dragon, not "like" a dragon but an actual Ice Dragon.

The Starks are Kings of Winter, of Ice not Fire and ultimately in the conflict between the two Jon will represent Ice in fighting against Dany and her fire dragons in order to restore the balance upset by the victory of the original Azor Ahai. So far we've seen the Red Lot/Followers of the Light, but now in ADwD we've started to see that there's another side rooted in darkness and that the Starks are part of it and this is an underlying theme that will develop over the remaining books until it all comes together.

Jon may never take on the physical form of an Ice Dragon but its his destiny to slay the three Fire Dragons just as the original Ice Dragon did.

I really don't think there is anything to indicate that Jon will fight against Dany and her dragons, I am not saying that it isn't a possibility, but I don't think it will happen.
How is it Jon's "destiny" to slay the three fire Dragon's ?
I think there is much more evidence to support Jon being an actual dragon rider, opposed to him killing Dany's dragons, and I mean Jon as a rider of one of Dany's dragons, not an ice dragon.
If there has to be a battle between ice and fire, then it makes much more sence for it to be the dragons vs the Others.
Do you think that Jon will fight with the Others, Against Dany? Because if so, I just don't see it, I don't think there is a chance in seven hells that Jon will fight on the same side as the Others.

You mention that there is a darker side, and that the Starks are appart of it. I don't think that means  that the Starks are for the Others, and even if it did, Jon is only half Stark, so he could just as easily choose to follow his fire side, opposed to the ice side.

We have one example of someone sacrificing someone in front of a Weirwood, that isn't proof that the Starks were bad, and it especially doesn't prove that the present day Starks are bad.

Considering Brandon the Builder is the one who built the Wall, which keeps the Others out, I don't think that the Starks are for the Others.

The Iron Men sacrifice people to the Drowned god, which is a "First Men" god, does that also mean that they are for the Others? Or that it is their "destiny" to fight against Dany ?

[HannibalStark]

what? Now the Starks are bad?  I swear I am not reading the same books that other people seem to be reading.  I still do not think ice dragons, whether an actual reference, or a name for Jon will have anything to do with the story.  (so is a song of fire and ice a song of the two kinds of dragons?  are there only 2 kinds of dragons?)  There are way to many references and discussions about fire+dragons compared to the three references to ice dragons.  Again, the references are 1) a constellation   2) describing cold wind as "coming" from an ice dragon  3) a cold crypt being like in the belly of an ice dragon.

There are 3 references that I think were used to describe things as being cold / how stars look.  

Compared to all of the actual events that have taken place with "fire dragons" these three references in my opinon do not indicate ice dragons are real.

I can't see Jon being referenced in the book as the ice dragon, it just doesn't sound right.  But Im not going to debate ice dragons existing any more with a guy with the name Ice Dragon.  But I do thank you for responding.  I am just saying I can't see it.

[Ghost714]

HannibalStark, on 15 March 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

what? Now the Starks are bad?  I swear I am not reading the same books that other people seem to be reading.  I still do not think ice dragons, whether an actual reference, or a name for Jon will have anything to do with the story.  (so is a song of fire and ice a song of the two kinds of dragons?  are there only 2 kinds of dragons?)  There are way to many references and discussions about fire+dragons compared to the three references to ice dragons.  Again, the references are 1) a constellation   2) describing cold wind as "coming" from an ice dragon  3) a cold crypt being like in the belly of an ice dragon.

There are 3 references that I think were used to describe things as being cold / how stars look.  

Compared to all of the actual events that have taken place with "fire dragons" these three references in my opinon do not indicate ice dragons are real.

I can't see Jon being referenced in the book as the ice dragon, it just doesn't sound right.  But Im not going to debate ice dragons existing any more with a guy with the name Ice Dragon.  But I do thank you for responding.  I am just saying I can't see it.

I agree.
I don't think the Starks are bad at all, especially the present day Starks, and I really do not think Ice dragons will come into the story.
Everybody thinks that Ice dragons will come into the story to restore "the balance" of "ice and fire", now that Dany's dragons are in the picture. If that was the case, why were there no ice dragons when the Targaryens ruled with multiple Dragons?
And I would like to point out that, "the balance" isn't what people think. People make it sound like that there must be ice dragons because of Dany's fire dragons, but Dany's dragons were not what messed up the balance, Dany's dragons restored the balance. The balance was messed up when the Others came back into the picture, when Dany's dragons hatched, that was the balance being restored. So again if there must be a balance of ice and fire, then it makes much more sence for it to be the Others, and Dany's Dragons. That's why it makes perfect sence for Dany's dragons to die, while destroying the Others, that way the balance is restored once again.

So the only ice dragon I could see being in the story, would be a metaphoric ice dragon, when reffering to Jon, there won't be any literal ice dragons.

I can't help but wonder if all this hope for an ice dragon comes from people being bias towards Dany, I think people just want something in the store that's capable of killing Dany's dragons. If that's the case, then I still don't understand, because to me, the Others and the Wights seem like a very fair fight against Dany's Dragons, and it seems very likely that the Others could destroy the Dragons.
So can we stop the unlikely wishful thinking of an ice dragon?

[HannibalStark]

I think the fact that there is a book by G.R.R.M. called the Ice Dragon is screwing with people.  (I am ordering it so I can read it for myself though).  I think people want there to be link between that book and ASoIaF, like with the Dunk and Egg stories.

[Ghost714]

HannibalStark, on 15 March 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

I think the fact that there is a book by G.R.R.M. called the Ice Dragon is screwing with people.  (I am ordering it so I can read it for myself though).  I think people want there to be link between that book and ASoIaF, like with the Dunk and Egg stories.

I agree.

[DragonSpawn]

Did anyone else notice that Bran was crowned King in the North by Bloodraven and the singers?

[CrypticWeirwood]

DragonSpawn, on 22 March 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

Did anyone else notice that Bran was crowned King in the North by Bloodraven and the singers?

He was?  Where?  Do you have an exact quote for what you’re thinking of?

Me, I want to know why Bloodraven watched not only Bran’s birth, but Ned’s.

[DragonSpawn]

Well.. The Direwolves are a symbol of a King ... but i couldn't think how Bran would end up King...

Then it occured to me... Robbs dead.. obviously Bran is now the King of the North - it's just noone knows he's alive... Except Bloodraven...

No words are spoken but Bran has a kind of coronation in the cave...

The Singers were singing for him... (his sad song) - Bran just didn't understand the words.... He was given a weirwood throne... and they may have made a great sacrafice for him...

I know it's debatable... but if Jojen had a green-dream about his death... and Bloodraven is the last green-seer.... then it's safe to assume that Bloodraven sent Jojen the vision of his death... but why? Well there can only be one possible reason to torture someone like that.... to prepare them for the great honour of being sacraficed for a king and for the good of the realm...

weird one i know ...

[Turgid furgison]

Proposition, on 09 February 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

The search function of this forum didn't turn up anything on this topic, but if this is already being discussed somewhere let me know.

Could Bran and Bloodraven hatch their own dragon egg?

We know from The Mystery Knight that Bloodraven was at one time in possession of a dragon egg, and with no information to the contrary we can assume he still is.  From the Christmas Gift chapter it's apparent that Bran and/or Bloodraven as well as Asha want Stannis (who intends to kill Theon) to take Theon to a nearby weirwood tree.  In A Game of Thrones it's shown that some sort of sacrifice is required to hatch dragon eggs.  Both Theon and Dany's unborn child share a sort of "king's blood" which is apparently of great importance when it comes to casting spells.

Unfortunately, I don't have my books on hand to reread Bran's chapters to see if this holds some weight.  If anyone has read them recently - did you notice any references to strange egg shaped rocks?

Finally, a few points that throw some doubt on my theory:

1. Bran seems to be trying to help Theon throughout ADWD, trying to get him to remember his name.  He also doesn't strike me as someone willing to sacrifice a person he's known all his life, even after the terrible things Theon has done to his home.
2. Asha is most likely just trying to give her brother a clean death or attempt an escape.  I doubt she's weak-willed enough to be warged or manipulated by Bran/Bloodraven.
3.  The type of magic that Bloodraven wields isn't the same as a shadowbinder's - king's blood or a sacrifice may not be required.  If it isn't, an explanation for Bloodraven not already hatching his egg could be that the assistance of a more powerful greenseer (Bran) is required.
4.  Finally, how useful could a baby dragon even be?  Dany's dragons served well to rally people to her, but took 5 books to actually be useful in combat.  Bloodraven/Bran are both incapable of leaving their cave at the moment, so they wouldn't be able to use the dragon to bring people to their cause (whatever that may be) and there doesn't seem to be enough time left in the series for it to even rival Viserion, the weakest of Dany's dragons, even if it was allowed to grow unrestricted.

Either way, I still feel this a topic worthy of discussion.  What say you?

is there any instance of dragons passing the wall? If not, why not? Dragons may not be as useful as we expect. Worse if they become wight dragons.

[Turgid furgison]

Lykos, on 11 February 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

I don´t think Asha is likely to let Theon be sacrificed, for she has plans to use him to claim the Seastone Chair.

She learned at the end of ADwD the story of Torgon the Latecomer.

So unless she becomes convinced that it is more important for her she will not let this happen, even though she thinks he might be better of dead.

However I like the idea that something really powerfull is awakened with the help of Bran.

i thought asha herself realizes she cant rule the ironborn because she is twice defeated.. She must want to cron vic or aaron or the reader. Probably the reader vic will die soon.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Turgid furgison, on 23 March 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

is there any instance of dragons passing the wall? If not, why not? Dragons may not be as useful as we expect. Worse if they become wight dragons.

Yes, a dragon has flown to the Wall.

As for dragons becoming ice-wights, sorry can’t happen. Fire and ice don't mix.

[Blackfyre Bob]

Ice dragons??? Wtf?

[Black Crow]

Long story on various threads...

We've had a lot of discussion about the nature of the bond between Targaryens and Fire Dragons and how its because they have the "blood of the dragon" that they are able to interact with dragons. What could be important here is that if R+L=J then Jon has both the blood of the dragon and Ice in his veins and can interact with the Ice Dragon that's been hinted at for so long, just as Adara did in the original story