71 replies to this topic

[Ygrette]

Maybe it's comforting to read that I'm a total noob, just joined the forum, started to read the books only 3 weeks ago, and still I do NOT hate Catelyn Stark?

It's not that she's my favourite character or that I think she is perfectly brilliant and of outstanding character in everything she says and does. BUT. I don't think she is any worse than most of the other characters. She's not a master strategist and yet has seen some things go wrong in her lifetime to have a good gut sense. She has suffered enormous loss in a brief amount of time and to be honest, I admired her strength of will not to slay Jaime Lannister when she had the chance. Even after he provokes her for the gazllionth time.

I really get why people want to facepalm over some of her decisions and get depressed by her POVs, but why this hate? *scratches her head*
Beats me.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

I freely admit that I have only been through the series once so far but I don't remember being moved at all by Cat's mourning for Ned.  Outside of the Bran's bedside episode all her emotions seemed muted and bottled up to me.  (Except for venegance, she gets pretty worked up about the Imp.)  That is why I have thought of her a stone-hearted from the beginning for the most part.  Is there a part where we are supposed to empathize and relate to the widow Stark?  She goes into Dowager Queen in the North mode pretty quickly.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

I have been reading this forum for quite a while but only just joined and started posting.  I have to say it is the Cat lovers, not the Cat haters that seem "overwrought."  Personally I do not care for the woman and I have sought out threads to hear the opinons of others who do not care for her.  I don't mind hearing diverse opinions, but I find the "search and destroy" nature of the Cat People amazing.  Is that how it works, watch threads you disagree with and agreesively rebut as necessary?

[Ran]

Yes. Yes, that's exactly how it is. It's in the rules. Right next to the rule regarding self-pitying wank.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Ran, on 15 February 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

Yes. Yes, that's exactly how it is. It's in the rules. Right next to the rule regarding self-pitying wank.

Good to know.

[Balefont]

It's always an open minded person who seeks only those opinions that conform to one's own rather than face contradicting views. < / sarcasm >

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Balefont, on 15 February 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

It's always an open minded person who seeks only those opinions that conform to one's own rather than face contradicting views. < / sarcasm >

Also good to know.

[ManyFacedOne]

I loved Cat. Not only is she a great character (sympathetic, down to earth, well written, etc..), but she's also the mother of the coolest girls in Westeros the ice and fire world.

Spoiler

I really miss her PoV

Edited by ManyFacedOne, 15 February 2012 - 09:29 PM.

[Ygrette]

@Imp beyond the wall
Uhm, were you talking to me? I like Cat. Where was I aggressive or "overwrought" (*goes look that up in a dictionary*)? Could it be you're a bit quick to categorize and judge people? If you were talking about someone specific, could you mention names? If you were not, what's the point of making such a statement? I usually enjoy a nice and respectful banter among grownups, but am always a bit confused by bleak and directionless accusations in a thread.

[Grumpkin Hunter]

Imp Beyond the Wall, on 15 February 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

I have been reading this forum for quite a while but only just joined and started posting.  I have to say it is the Cat lovers, not the Cat haters that seem "overwrought."  Personally I do not care for the woman and I have sought out threads to hear the opinons of others who do not care for her.  I don't mind hearing diverse opinions, but I find the "search and destroy" nature of the Cat People amazing.  Is that how it works, watch threads you disagree with and agreesively rebut as necessary?

I haven't been able to figure out why it's such a crime to dislike Cat. She's a fairly one dimensional character amidst dozens of rich ones. Her moves often don't make sense and she's both incredibly emotional and flat all at once. I'm not a fan and no rebuttal I have read has changed my mind. The original post was the best explanation of my quarrels that I have found. Well said.

Edited by Grumpkin Hunter, 16 February 2012 - 02:07 AM.

[Balefont]

Grumpkin Hunter, on 16 February 2012 - 02:01 AM, said:

I haven't been able to figure out why it's such a crime to dislike Cat.

It's not a crime.  Disliking a character is expected.  It's the hatred.  It's the mouth-frothing ZOMG she's so mean to Jon!  I hate her.  She's stupid!

Many of us have been witnessing the Cat-bashing for so long, over 10 years, it gets to be a very tired subject.  The thing is, most people who do not like her character fail to provide support that would justify their feelings or are unable to adequately defend why they hatessss her.

This isn't that kind of community.  This is a rare and wonderful place on the internet for many reasons.  We have an incredible moderation team and moderation policy that has guided this community to be a place where anyone is welcome to express their opinion, popularly held views or not, yet you have to be able to provide support.  We will call you out.  We will debate you.  We will challenge you.  Lazy thinking and knee-jerk reactions will not go unnoticed.

So, without further ado.

Quote

She's a fairly one dimensional character amidst dozens of rich ones.

Please express some support to your opinion.

Quote

Her moves often don't make sense

Really?  I thought her POV chapters more than adequately explain what she says and does and why.  Why do you think they don't make sense.

Quote

and she's both incredibly emotional  

From the moment we meet her, her family life turns to uproar and half her family is being sent over a month's worth of travel away.  Emotional?  You'd better believe I would be.

Quote

and flat all at once.

'Splain.  In your words.

[Ygrette]

I personally think there is nothing wrong with expressing a feeling in terms of "I just don't like her" or "she bored me" or "her actions didn't make sense to me/I would have acted differently". But rarely the postings are limited to those clearly subjective statements.

What I, as a newbie who doesn't hate Catelyn, find irritating is the extreme hatred, the aggressiveness and the complete denial of empathy towards this one very specific character. I don't get what's so upsetting about her. People seem to hate her more than Vargo Hoat, more than Tywin Lannister, more than Cersei Lannister and more than Gregor Clegane.
And as soon as you express your liking for the character Catelyn Stark, one is automatically categorized as "Cat-lover" and therefore as a bundle automatically attributed as stupid and irrational.

Can't we just say "I didn't like her." - "Okay, I did." and maybe discuss why?

I personally have never been a huge fan of Cat, yet I liked her and somewhat identified with her. I'm a mother. I sometimes make mistakes. I can be stubborn. So yeah, I can identify with her, even if I don't cheer everytime she does something. I wish she wouldn't have released Jaime. I wish she would have voiced her concerns regarding Walder Frey's message. In no way is she beyond criticism.

But why that hatred?

[Doran II]

Ygrette, on 16 February 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

...What I, as a newbie who doesn't hate Catelyn, find irritating is the extreme hatred, the aggressiveness and the complete denial of empathy towards this one very specific character. I don't get what's so upsetting about her. People seem to hate her more than Vargo Hoat, more than Tywin Lannister, more than Cersei Lannister and more than Gregor Clegane.
And as soon as you express your liking for the character Catelyn Stark, one is automatically categorized as "Cat-lover" and therefore as a bundle automatically attributed as stupid and irrational...

Exactly, this is what really bothers me, where do such hatred comes from?

Because she is a woman and people think she should just stay home and take care of the kids while Dad's at work? I actually remember a comment with something like "she's a woman and should stay at home as is her duty" and i was like WTF?? Her duty is with her family and she did what she believe it was better for the family.
The worse thing i see about such comments is the inability to put themselves in her situation, you know, try and think about what would they do if they were at her place, with her level of information.
If she made mistakes so what? She's not perfect, and want really counts for me is the intent more than the outcome, and her actions where always intended in what she thought was best for her family.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Ygrette, on 16 February 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

@Imp beyond the wall
Uhm, were you talking to me? I like Cat. Where was I aggressive or "overwrought" (*goes look that up in a dictionary*)? Could it be you're a bit quick to categorize and judge people? If you were talking about someone specific, could you mention names? If you were not, what's the point of making such a statement? I usually enjoy a nice and respectful banter among grownups, but am always a bit confused by bleak and directionless accusations in a thread.

@Ygrette, no.  I was not referring to you at all.  I was commenting on what I have seen in several "Cat-Negative" sites, complaints from Cat fans that criticism of her is somehow unreasoning hate.  It seemed to me that some of those people were just "looking for a fight" and their defense had way more heat and venom than the original criiticism.  

Your posts did not enter into it.

I did not "name" any particular poster because I am not trying to start a fight.

[Ygrette]

@Imp Beyond the Wall
Okay, I get you now, it was just coincidental then, because I had just "outed" myself as someone who likes the character. Thanks for elaborating.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Doran II, on 16 February 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

Exactly, this is what really bothers me, where do such hatred comes from?

Because she is a woman and people think she should just stay home and take care of the kids while Dad's at work?

her being a woman has less than nothing to do with it.  On the contrary I think that I am more than willing to acknowledge the aspects of the Catelyn character that are admirable with objectiviity, but "the ass kickers and name takers" insist on minimizing her faults to the point of absurdity.  She is a strong and intelligent woman, far more politically capable than her husband and many other male heroes in the story, but her inflexible and unforgiving nature is her fatal flaw.

"With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle."

She ends up shattered, a pitiable caricature of herself, nothing remaining hate and vengeance.  I don't think GRRM could be any more clear.

[Doran II]

Imp Beyond the Wall, on 20 February 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

her being a woman has less than nothing to do with it.  On the contrary I think that I am more than willing to acknowledge the aspects of the Catelyn character that are admirable with objectiviity, but "the ass kickers and name takers" insist on minimizing her faults to the point of absurdity.  She is a strong and intelligent woman, far more politically capable than her husband and many other male heroes in the story, but her inflexible and unforgiving nature is her fatal flaw.

"With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle."

She ends up shattered, a pitiable caricature of herself, nothing remaining hate and vengeance.  I don't think GRRM could be any more clear.

Where did i minimized her faults to the point of absurdy, im pretty sure i was explicit when i said what she did to Jon was wrong, the point where i disagree to you is the scale, "how much wrong" is it - in the lack of a better expression - i don't that she must be forced to recognized a son that is not hers, nor she must be forced to like, but i do reckon that she didn't had to treat so coldly, wich does no equal her to a monster, nor a child abuser.
I don't think Martin is trying to giving us a moral lesson with these books, specially not in a story where characters like Roose Bolton are winning (until now) or Littlefinger - quite comfortably so far - you are completely way off the point if you Catelyn's tragic fate has anything to do with a moral lesson by Martin. If, anything, the Red Wedding was much more the consequence of her son not listening to her than anything else.

[lyvyathan]

Planetary, on 10 February 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

I kid, I kid. Well, not entirely.

I'm one of those newbies who jumped into the books after watching S1 on HBO, and I was genuinely surprised that HBO actually toned down Catelyn Stark's hatred of Jon Snow. All the same, I thought there was no way her character could possibly be more dour than she was in the series. I was wrong on that count too.

* Potential Spoilers up to Book 3 *

1) Every time the story changes to Catelyn's PoV, it's a misery-fest. And not in a post-capture Jaime sort of way, or even a Samwell despair kind of way. Just abject misery from the PoV of a character who obsesses over perceived slights, imagined problems or the behavior of the always-dissapointing people around her.

2) Catelyn Stark reminds me of a great-aunt, who loved to tell stories, knew everything about the family and was an unofficial local historian. Like my great-aunt, Catelyn Stark's stories are always filled with long-dead people no one knows or wants to hear about. Unlike my aunt, the majority of the stories are petty or miserable.

3) Balon Greyjoy dead? No time to celebrate, let's bring up four dozen other reasons to be miserable. Robb re-sealing the alliance with the Freys? Not to worry, Catelyn's PoV will focus on how much the rain sucks. Her son wins a significant battle? Let's not get our hopes up, it's right back to the misery! Damn. No wonder Robb Stark tried to get rid of her several times. I'd fall on my sword if she was my mother.

4) The "smallfolk." There are a couple of scenes where she's actually annoyed by the fact that they're cheering her. There are several passages where she looks on the commoners with disdain. And when her brother takes in his "smallfolk" behind the walls of Riverrun, she immediately thinks to chide him for it. Mouths to feed and so on. Uh, WTF? Isn't the whole notion of banners, liege lords and keeps centered around the fact that the lord provides protection for the peasants in times of danger? Why would they fight for a lord if he shuts his keep and leaves 'em out to be slaughtered?


I know this is the PoV of a woman who has lost a lot, but damn. I also know that George R.R. Martin is a master of characterization, and well aware of how to gain reader sympathies for a character. The surest way is to write a likable character, make them suffer through a long parade of crappy things and get the reader invested and on their side. But failing that, at least make them relatable. But Catelyn Stark's character reminds me of the main cast in Alastair Reynolds' "Revelation Space," where every PoV character is so revolting, obnoxious, selfish and absurd that it's impossible to relate to any of them.

Of course, maybe this is all a build-up, and maybe there's some big payoff on the back end of Storm of Swords (which I'm about 70% through) or in future books. But right now, I'd have to say Catelyn Stark is by far my least-favorite character in the series, and I'm tempted to skip the chapter every time I turn the page and see "CATELYN."

Haha, you'll be surprised how some readers think so highly of Cat. There's a few threads devoted to how wonderful she is - just a word of warning, trying to talk to her die-hard fans is like talking to reason with Catelyn Tully herself.

[lyvyathan]

Ran, on 10 February 2012 - 05:12 AM, said:

She's my favorite character, and I think she's one of the most relatable characters in the novels, since very few of us are master swordsmen, terrifyingly brilliant dwarves, precocious murderous kids, etc. She's certainly the most realistically depicted character, I think. Is she depressed? Yes, she is. Her life is one tragedy after another, and she's often Cassandra, seeing it coming but no one listens to her. It's enough to drive a person mad.

I don't know about that. I never seem to have the urge to bear a grudge that I had against another adult against a child for 15 years, nor do I kidnap dwarfs and start kingdom wars, nor do I want to bury bodies in rock hard soils when I'm being under attack by mountain clans men, nor do I place my faith in a childhood friend whose now a sleazy pimp, nor do I decide to free a major enemy combatent leader - regarded as untrustyworthy by every man and his dog in the 7 kingdoms and send him back across a warzone with an old geezer and a female knight as his sole escort in the hopes for a possible exchange, not negotiated.

She actually reminds me of my Prime Minister Julia Gillard a bit lurching from one disaster to another but too proud to admit she made a mistake.

[lyvyathan]

Balefont, on 16 February 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

Many of us have been witnessing the Cat-bashing for so long, over 10 years, it gets to be a very tired subject.  The thing is, most people who do not like her character fail to provide support that would justify their feelings or are unable to adequately defend why they hatessss her.

10 years? Is that all? Why not 15 years - cos as you know that's how long Cat held the grudge against a child for... oh wait she still does.