71 replies to this topic

[lyvyathan]

Imp Beyond the Wall, on 20 February 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

She ends up shattered, a pitiable caricature of herself, nothing remaining hate and vengeance.  I don't think GRRM could be any more clear.

Actually I like Stoneheart - at least she seems to think a bit more rationally now. Too bad she still makes mistakes - but I expected that from Cat.

[Doran II]

lyvyathan, on 21 February 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

Haha, you'll be surprised how some readers think so highly of Cat. There's a few threads devoted to how wonderful she is - just a word of warning, trying to talk to her die-hard fans is like talking to reason with Catelyn Tully herself.

Hating a character does not gives you license to call people stupid you know, this thread was doing quite well before you started trolling.
Let's try to keep the level here folks.

[Doran II]

double, sorry.

Edited by Doran II, 21 February 2012 - 09:47 AM.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Doran II, on 21 February 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

Where did i minimized her faults to the point of absurdy, im pretty sure i was explicit when i said what she did to Jon was wrong, the point where i disagree to you is the scale, "how much wrong" is it - in the lack of a better expression - i don't that she must be forced to recognized a son that is not hers, nor she must be forced to like, but i do reckon that she didn't had to treat so coldly, wich does no equal her to a monster, nor a child abuser.
I don't think Martin is trying to giving us a moral lesson with these books, specially not in a story where characters like Roose Bolton are winning (until now) or Littlefinger - quite comfortably so far - you are completely way off the point if you Catelyn's tragic fate has anything to do with a moral lesson by Martin. If, anything, the Red Wedding was much more the consequence of her son not listening to her than anything else.

Doran II, I have to confess I am yanking your chain a little bit.  I have read in your posts that you want "honest discussion" and you lament "hatred" form the Anti-Cat people but your signature is so obviously meant to bait people, daring them to disagree with you.  So I called you out a little.  Apologies, it was silly.  We can disagree without being disagreeable.  


I read in a recent post (I'm pretty sure that it was yours and if it wasn't apologies again) where Cat's treatment of Jon Snow was described as "only what was necessary."  Necessary?  As in needed or required?  In otherwords, "the right thing."  I think it is bending over backwards to the point of absurdity to come up with an excuse formulation that amounts to "...if you really think about it she acted correctly."  Or "...she had no choice."  I think I understand Cat.  I don't think she is a monster, but she is an adult and she is respsonsible for her choices.  When Ned's want Jon to stay behind with Robb it says "Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband's eyes,"  It isn't that she does not have feelings, she supresses them, by choice, for pride's sake.  This is where I think GRRM is brilliant, it is all very subtle with very fine gradations.  

I have said before, in my view Cat is the "Wicked Step-Mother" but with a very interesting twist.  She is not the murderous witch of Snow White, or even the gold-digging mother of ugly-step-brats of Cinderella.  She is something much more complex.  Cat is a loving wife and mother mother with those she considers her family.  Her children are lovely, likeable, and for the most part very good to Jonderella. Cat is brave, intelligent, and almost good.  When she has opportunity to be good, she chooses to be "strong" instead.

[Doran II]

Imp Beyond the Wall, on 21 February 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

Doran II, I have to confess I am yanking your chain a little bit.  I have read in your posts that you want "honest discussion" and you lament "hatred" form the Anti-Cat people but your signature is so obviously meant to bait people, daring them to disagree with you.  So I called you out a little.  Apologies, it was silly.  We can disagree without being disagreeable.  


I read in a recent post (I'm pretty sure that it was yours and if it wasn't apologies again) where Cat's treatment of Jon Snow was described as "only what was necessary."  Necessary?  As in needed or required?  In otherwords, "the right thing."  I think it is bending over backwards to the point of absurdity to come up with an excuse formulation that amounts to "...if you really think about it she acted correctly."  Or "...she had no choice."  I think I understand Cat.  I don't think she is a monster, but she is an adult and she is respsonsible for her choices.  When Ned's want Jon to stay behind with Robb it says "Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband's eyes,"  It isn't that she does not have feelings, she supresses them, by choice, for pride's sake.  This is where I think GRRM is brilliant, it is all very subtle with very fine gradations.  

I have said before, in my view Cat is the "Wicked Step-Mother" but with a very interesting twist.  She is not the murderous witch of Snow White, or even the gold-digging mother of ugly-step-brats of Cinderella.  She is something much more complex.  Cat is a loving wife and mother mother with those she considers her family.  Her children are lovely, likeable, and for the most part very good to Jonderella. Cat is brave, intelligent, and almost good.  When she has opportunity to be good, she chooses to be "strong" instead.

By necessary i mean only when necessary, meaning she tried to avoid him, not confront him, english is not my native language so you to forgive my mistake.
And You Imp? From you 54 posts, almost all of them are in these hate-catelyn threads? Im starting to think that you're some sort of fake, is either that or you only come to these characters to discusse this stuff.
About my sign, is something Balefont said in the thread and i find funny, if you think that as a troll-bait then you're thinking like a trol, wich is weirdly reminding of my search for you post and finding almost all of them in these kind of threads...

Edited by Doran II, 21 February 2012 - 10:13 AM.

[Lou Flowers]

lyvyathan, on 21 February 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

I don't know about that. I never seem to have the urge to bear a grudge that I had against another adult against a child for 15 years, nor do I kidnap dwarfs and start kingdom wars, nor do I want to bury bodies in rock hard soils when I'm being under attack by mountain clans men, nor do I place my faith in a childhood friend whose now a sleazy pimp, nor do I decide to free a major enemy combatent leader - regarded as untrustyworthy by every man and his dog in the 7 kingdoms and send him back across a warzone with an old geezer and a female knight as his sole escort in the hopes for a possible exchange, not negotiated.

She actually reminds me of my Prime Minister Julia Gillard a bit lurching from one disaster to another but too proud to admit she made a mistake.

You left out the true reason I dislike Cat: leaving Rickon (and Bran) without a mother (instead of just sending a messanger to Ned in KL), and later neglecting Rickon (and Bran) because she wanted to stay close to Robb.

Poor Rickon.

[lyvyathan]

Lou Flowers, on 21 February 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

You left out the true reason I dislike Cat: leaving Rickon (and Bran) without a mother (instead of just sending a messanger to Ned in KL), and later neglecting Rickon (and Bran) because she wanted to stay close to Robb.

Poor Rickon.

So many. Of course how could I forget?

[Phat Walda]

Doran II, on 21 February 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

By necessary i mean only when necessary, meaning she tried to avoid him, not confront him, english is not my native language so you to forgive my mistake.
And You Imp? From you 54 posts, almost all of them are in these hate-catelyn threads? Im starting to think that you're some sort of fake, is either that or you only come to these characters to discusse this stuff.
About my sign, is something Balefont said in the thread and i find funny, if you think that as a troll-bait then you're thinking like a trol, wich is weirdly reminding of my search for you post and finding almost all of them in these kind of threads...

U mad?

[Doran II]

Phat Walda, on 21 February 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

U mad?

u sad?

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Doran II, on 21 February 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

By necessary i mean only when necessary, meaning she tried to avoid him, not confront him, english is not my native language so you to forgive my mistake.
And You Imp? From you 54 posts, almost all of them are in these hate-catelyn threads? Im starting to think that you're some sort of fake, is either that or you only come to these characters to discusse this stuff.
About my sign, is something Balefont said in the thread and i find funny, if you think that as a troll-bait then you're thinking like a trol, wich is weirdly reminding of my search for you post and finding almost all of them in these kind of threads...

Naw, that's not it.  I am no troll. I am the nicest person you'll find as ar as netiquette is concerned.  I am not trying to pick on you.  Trolls never say sorry...

Ok, my work buddies had a guys night out for the premier of GoT on HBO.  I had never heard of the series before and I was immediately hooked.  I ordered the whole series on Kindle and have been immersed in it ever since.  

I dislike Cat form the start but I assumed I was in the minority.  when I found this message board i did not immediately see any anit-Cat threads.  I read a long time I ever posted anything.  When I finally started putting my two-cents in it was because, quite by accident, I found an anti-Cat thread and some people who ahd similar thoughts to mine.  

Interestingly enough, at almost the exact same time, I saw several posts (Doran II, Balefont, Ran)attacking anti-Cat posters in very harsh terms.  I decided to defend on that side of the argument.  Politely, I thought.  

I only post a little here and there and on a limited number of topics because I have limited time.  Gotta earn a living. I am not trolling. I will get in on some of the other arguments in time.  I have opinions on everything.    


No hard feelings I hope.

[Doran II]

Imp Beyond the Wall, on 21 February 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

...No hard feelings I hope.

None from me definetly.
I just thought it was a very weird coincidence at the same moment i see some users, even more agressively attacking her, that you started posting, very oftenly, in these same threads.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Doran II, on 21 February 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

None from me definetly.
I just thought it was a very weird coincidence at the same moment i see some users, even more agressively attacking her, that you started posting, very oftenly, in these same threads.

Coinicidence.  You gotta start somewhere and this just happened to be it for me.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

@Doran II -

To answer your question from the other thread...I think that one reason that Cat gets debated so much and Sandor, Gregor, Randyl Tarly, Tywin Lannister, Roose Bolton and Ramsay (Snow) Bolton, among others, don't get debated, is because they do not have PoV's.  

I never considered Cersei and Jaime anything but monsters until I had to start internalizing their thoughts.  For me, and I know I am a little judgemental, both will always be seen through the prism of Bran.  Whatever redemption and growth GRRM gives us for those two in the future, Bran will always be on the scales weighing against that.  

Cat is actually interesting and worth talking about in a way the worst villains are not.  Jaime nad Cersei are getting more interesting.

[birdsong66]

Quote

To answer your question from the other thread...I think that one reason that Cat gets debated so much and Sandor, Gregor, Randyl Tarly, Tywin Lannister, Roose Bolton and Ramsay (Snow) Bolton, among others, don't get debated, is because they do not have PoV's.

If I may jump in here...

I agree with the lack of POV theory, but would also add that none of the above examples are considered the caretaker parent of young children...either the children are full grown, or altogether absent.  Lacking both POV and young children replaces/eliminates the ambiguities and stereotypes that are very often applied when in judgement of Catelyn.  I'm not screaming sexism here, but simply pointing out that if Catelyn were unmarried, childless, and related to the reader through another character's POV, she would be 1) less interesting in human complexities, and 2) relegated to a tertiary character who is easily boxed in as either good or bad.  

Quote

I never considered Cersei and Jaime anything but monsters until I had to start internalizing their thoughts. For me, and I know I am a little judgemental, both will always be seen through the prism of Bran. Whatever redemption and growth GRRM gives us for those two in the future, Bran will always be on the scales weighing against that.

I agree on the Bran scale, but disagree with Cercei achieving redemption through a POV.  She has, and always will be a monster to me of the basest sort.  Jaime?  I believe, when all is said and done, that Jaime's POV will serve most in exposing just how toxic an influence his sister is.  Redemption?  Of the two, he's more likely to achieve it, but I'm not betting the farm on it.  YMMV.

Also, while I'm at it, that Catelyn "had no other choice" is a fact if we recognize the inherent plot device in play, and agree with Jon's much debated parentage.  Her being a kind and loving mother to Jon would have drawn far too much attention from the petty, gossip mill in KL, which would inevitably led to charges of treason, and punishment thereafter.  It's convenient, tidy, and excuses everyone from their actions.

I don't agree, but that's an entirely different kettle of panties.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

birdsong66, on 22 February 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

If I may jump in here...

I agree with the lack of POV theory, but would also add that none of the above examples are considered the caretaker parent of young children...either the children are full grown, or altogether absent.  Lacking both POV and young children replaces/eliminates the ambiguities and stereotypes that are very often applied when in judgement of Catelyn.  I'm not screaming sexism here, but simply pointing out that if Catelyn were unmarried, childless, and related to the reader through another character's POV, she would be 1) less interesting in human complexities, and 2) relegated to a tertiary character who is easily boxed in as either good or bad.  



I agree on the Bran scale, but disagree with Cercei achieving redemption through a POV.  She has, and always will be a monster to me of the basest sort.  Jaime?  I believe, when all is said and done, that Jaime's POV will serve most in exposing just how toxic an influence his sister is.  Redemption?  Of the two, he's more likely to achieve it, but I'm not betting the farm on it.  YMMV.

Also, while I'm at it, that Catelyn "had no other choice" is a fact if we recognize the inherent plot device in play, and agree with Jon's much debated parentage.  Her being a kind and loving mother to Jon would have drawn far too much attention from the petty, gossip mill in KL, which would inevitably led to charges of treason, and punishment thereafter.  It's convenient, tidy, and excuses everyone from their actions.

I don't agree, but that's an entirely different kettle of panties.

If I gave the impression that I am softening to Cersei, let me clear that up.  Even if her I thought her  "epiphany" were geniune, which I don't, it would still not be enough to redeem her in my eyes.  Jaime still has a lot of work to do before he can be forgiven.  they are just more complex and therefore more interesting.

I am really trying to be fair to Cat.  I think that what you say has merit however, everybody has a choice.  I cannot let my inherent respect for the "feminist girl power" aspects of Lady Stark  excuse what I think are significant character flaws.

I am just beginning my second read through.  It will be interesting to see how I feel when I am done.

[Alexia]

Ygrette, on 16 February 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

What I, as a newbie who doesn't hate Catelyn, find irritating is the extreme hatred, the aggressiveness and the complete denial of empathy towards this one very specific character. I don't get what's so upsetting about her. People seem to hate her more than Vargo Hoat, more than Tywin Lannister, more than Cersei Lannister and more than Gregor Clegane.
*snip*
I personally have never been a huge fan of Cat, yet I liked her and somewhat identified with her. I'm a mother. I sometimes make mistakes. I can be stubborn. So yeah, I can identify with her, even if I don't cheer everytime she does something.

But why that hatred?

This.  Catelyn Stark is not one of my favorite characters.  She's tremendously well-written and multidimensional and I identified with her while reading.  But when I was reading her POVs, they were just too sad because of her (understandable) deep depression.  They seemed to lack the hope that is present in other perspectives as the series continued.

So when I turned the page and saw a Catelyn chapter, I didn't feel the same excitement as when I saw Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, Jaime.  But when I came on the forums (really any ASOIAF fandom space online), I encountered this irrational frothing hatred of her.  She didn't stay home and take care of her babies like a good little woman.  She's too emotional.  She's too cold.  She was mean to Jon.  She nagged the King Who Lost the North.  She had a nervous breakdown when her son was at death's door.  And so on and so forth.  I probably wouldn't spend much time in threads about her were it not for how irrationally and venomously maligned she is.

Catelyn's strength as a character is in how real she is.  She is a Cassandra -- if Robb had listened to her, he might still have lost the war but there would not have been that complete humiliating defeat and ostensible destruction of their House that took place.  She is flawed and doesn't always make the right decision but she is still very human and very real.  She might not be my favorite character and I might not feel excited when I flipped the page and encountered one of her chapters -- but she is a very well-written character and her story lent a lot of richness and depth to the series.

[Ser_Not_Appearing_In_This_Book]

Un-Cat ftw

[Ygrette]

Well, it is known [TM] that cats have nine lives. Wonder if the same is true for Cats. :-P

[Karimbus]

She could have been a bit happier at the wedding. It's your brother's wedding, cheer up.
If she was sarcastic about it like Edd then maybe I could like her as much as I like him.
My hatred for her has been brewing since I saw (well, read) how she treated Jon.

[Planetary]

Balefont, on 16 February 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

It's not a crime.  Disliking a character is expected.  It's the hatred.  It's the mouth-frothing ZOMG she's so mean to Jon!  I hate her.  She's stupid!

Many of us have been witnessing the Cat-bashing for so long, over 10 years, it gets to be a very tired subject.  The thing is, most people who do not like her character fail to provide support that would justify their feelings or are unable to adequately defend why they hatessss her.

Yes, but my original post was no ZOMG anything. It was a detailed look at the misery-fests her POV chapters are, and it was meant to be humorous. It's just my opinion.

As for spending a decade defending a relatively minor fictional character from a fantasy series, that's on you. As far as time investment goes, it's on par with the die-hard Avatar fans who are learning Naa'vi.

I like this forum. Most people are kind and the discussion is for the most part genuine. What I don't like is the "I have been reading this series since 1996 so my opinion is more valid than yours" type of attitude some people have. That's absurd.