71 replies to this topic

[Xerox in 4 Parts]

Karimbus, on 04 March 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

She could have been a bit happier at the wedding. It's your brother's wedding, cheer up.
If she was sarcastic about it like Edd then maybe I could like her as much as I like him.
My hatred for her has been brewing since I saw (well, read) how she treated Jon.

Oh dude, you read my mind.

Like, the last time my sons just died and the remaining one just squandered a critical military alliance and we had to sell my brother into marriage to the local used car salesman I was cracking out my clogs.  Cat's just such a party pooper, ughs!

[Ran]

I don't think she's saying what you think she said. She's making the observation that, based on 10+ years evidence, the Catelyn bashing is a tired subject, and that most (not all -- most) who bash her are doing so from knee-jerk, initial reactions. She's not saying her view is more or less valid.

Karimbus,

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She could have been a bit happier at the wedding. It's your brother's wedding, cheer up.

Her husband was murdered less than a year earlier. Her youngest sons were murdered a few months earlier. One daughter has been married off against her will to the Imp, of all people, and the other daughter is probably dead in a ditch somewhere. Her eldest son, the hope of his family, has made a disastrous marriage and this wedding is largely a political necessity rather than a long-awaited joy. Her beloved father has died a couple of weeks earlier.

Really, she doesn't have much to be cheerful for. I didn't see much sign of Robb being particularly cheery, either, under the circumstances.

Edited by Ran, 10 March 2012 - 09:53 PM.

[nachoproblem]

I don't think I could ever cast Catelyn as a villain. Tragically-flawed protagonist certainly. She can't be blamed for suffering either. Her mistakes come from inflexibility or gut-reaction over logic, not lack of intelligence or compassion, and certainly not from any lack of strength.

What I don't like about Cat as a character (rather than as a person) is that she just isn't fun to read. No sense of humor, even dark humor. Other characters in straits just as dire or worse still manage to have a certain charm for me. I believe Cat is a respectable enough person, but she is not charismatic. Which brings me to my point: Catelyn Stark is not the female Dolorous Edd, she is the female Stannis. So there.

(Note: I'm not arguing with anyone who loves Cat because they relate to her stuggles, or reasons like that. It's just that for me it's like a pill I had to swallow every 4 or 5 chapters. I could have swallowed it once and been done.)

[Xerox in 4 Parts]

Yeah, that's probably why Cat only got laid once a year.

I know one thing, when I read stories of intense suffering I want it all to be coated with lulz so I don't ever have to take it seriously.  Martin probably missed that lesson.

[chavalah]

Personally, I'm pretty sure Martin intended for us to take it all seriously.

There are certainly a lot of books, movies and other media out there that exist mainly for the lulz, but ASOIAF isn't one of them from what I can tell.  I see it as a far richer story this way, forcing us to take a deep look into human nature and complicated relationships.  And Cat might be the best personification of all of this, since nothing about her life was easy since Ned died (or maybe since Bran "fell.")  She's fascinating, tragic, resilient and fiercely devoted, and I won't deny that I'm far more interested in a character like that than someone who is meant to be distracting, comic relief.

[nachoproblem]

Xerox in 4 Parts, on 11 March 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

Yeah, that's probably why Cat only got laid once a year.

I know one thing, when I read stories of intense suffering I want it all to be coated with lulz so I don't ever have to take it seriously.  Martin probably missed that lesson.

"Pain is inevitable. Misery is optional." -- my brother-in-law I've known since I was 4, who recently died of kidney failure, leaving 4 children

I respect his advice.

[Red Raven]

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She's tremendously well-written and multidimensional and I identified with her while reading.

I partly agree, she's a well-written, well-rounded character that jumps off the page as a real person.

She's also a real pain in the arse.

At least Dolorous Edd has a twisted, we're-all-going-to-die sense of humor that makes him actually fun to be around.  Cat isn't useful for much of anything except for some limited Frey-whispering.  Oy.

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The thing is, most people who do not like her character fail to provide support that would justify their feelings or are unable to adequately defend why they hatessss her.

I notice many have supported their feelings but some of those who like her either dismiss their reasons or ignore them altogether.  I've detailed my own dislike of Cat in other threads.

[NorthernBird]

I wouldn't say I hate her - as someone pointed out earlier she is a complex and well drawn character. I think she's probably the one that most makes me put my head in my hands though. "Oh Cat - what are you doing NOW?" I just don't really GET her a lot of the time and she annoys me as she just seems to fanny about getting in the way a lot for nearly 3 books, when she'd be far more use being with Bran & Rickon.

[David Selig]

^Right, she should've been back in the kitchen taking care of little children and leave politics to the men...

[silvermug]

Oh thank God, I thought I was the only one who feels this way about Catelyn. I don't mind reading her depressing moments, but not continuously. It gets pretty tiring to read. And I am just at the part where they are riding from Riverrun to the Twins and her POVs are just full of complaints. In her thoughts, she just whines, and cries, and complains -- all throughout the ride. Even when the Mormont women were trying to make conversations with her, she was just not willing!

After reading her continuous the-world-is-so-dark, my-life-is-awful depressing thoughts, geez, I was drained.

And I spotted a post of what happened at the Twins during the wedding, oh gosh, I feel like skipping her POV now at that point, haha.

[Red Raven]

David Selig, on 12 April 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

^Right, she should've been back in the kitchen taking care of little children and leave politics to the men...

One of the parents should have been with the smaller kids.  Since Ned was occupied down south and later dead, it was Catelyn's responsibility to look after Bran and Rickon.  Robb was an adult or close to it and surrounded by other advisers.  He didn't need her, the smaller ones did.  

If Ned had stayed home then it would be fine for Catelyn to go gallivanting around (issues of her competence as Robb's adviser aside).

[Ran]

Parents go away from their children all the time in reality. There are military families right now where both husband and wife are overseas, and their children are being taken care of by others. The mother is not "fannying about" -- she's doing her duty. It's abhorrent that anyone thinks it's their place to tell people like this that they're wrong and mean and bad parents.

And that is what Catelyn is doing, really. Do you think she enjoys not being with Bran or Rickon? Do you think she isn't thinking of them? Do you think she's not acting in what she believes is best for them?

Robb very well did need her -- his war would have been a non-starter without her to advise him! The future of Bran and Rickon rested on Robb, his having her assistance at the Crossing, his ability to have her there to help guide his earliest plans to her role as an envoy and diplomat.

And let me add -- her father is dying, on his deathbed. Bran and Rickon aren't going to suffer permanently because they don't see their mother for a year because she's trying to take care of their grandfather in his last days.