We Don't Like Daenerys 2

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

In the last installment, Eivers asked if it still counted as a sacrifice if the people were already dead (PatrickStormborn said yes), and Nev yn wondered if Dany's "sacrifice" of Rhaego was that much different from Aegon V's (alleged?) sacrifice of the Duncans.

So let's have it: Dany. Egotistical, incompetent spoiled brat on the road to becoming just another batshit Targaryen? Or well-meaning, slave-freeing, girl-powered savior of the world?

From Game of Thrones, p. 669.

"You cannot claim them all, child," Ser Jorah said, the fourth time they stopped, while the warriors of her khas herded her new slaves behind her.

"I am khaleesi, heir to the Seven Kingdoms, the blood of the dragon," Dany reminded him. "It is not for you to tell me what I cannot do."

Shut up, Dany.

[deleted01]

Heh, I think she's got the madness gene, and the dragons are just fueling that. Sometimes she needs a slap, but she does things that not many other young girls would have the courage to do, such as free the slaves, travel across the Dothraki sea, ride a dragon, etc. She has a goal and she works hard to reach it, she at least deserves that much.. right? :leaving:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

She has a goal and she works hard to reach it, she at least deserves that much.. right? :leaving:

Does she?

[Ran]

Didn't she? She worked very hard indeed to save her "children" and Meereen from further slavery, sacrificing a great deal of her own hopes and desires for her people.

I find the "don't like" position rather silly, to be honest, and not much worth arguing with. When people go on about how she needs a slap (preferably from a burly macho man like Jorah), the argument's already been lost, folks. Pack it up.

[deleted01]

Does she?

Well. What I meant was that she just does what she has to do to get her to that goal. She puts up with Viserys' crap, marries Drogo, does blood magic, risks her life, gives birth, travels a long way, conquers cities, engages in battle, marries Hizdahr zo Loraq, flies off with Drogon and trusts he won't nom her... I'd say she does go a long way to reach the goal Viserys set for her, but the fact that she hasn't yet left for Westeros does indicate that she could do more. Her whinging annoys me but she is a young girl. Have to keep remembering that aha

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I was mostly referring to the fact that she gets other people to do the work for her — Drogon and the Unsullied took out the Astapori slavers, she sat in a tent when the fight for Yunkai was on, Barristan and Jorah and Grey Worm crawled through the sewers in Meereen. Other people do her torturing and interrogating for her and I'm certain she didn't crucify those people herself.

I think you can accurately say that she gave up a lot of her own happiness to attempt to secure Meereen by accepting the marriage proposal, yes. But I don't think that's the same as saying that she worked hard.

[Datepalm]

I was mostly referring to the fact that she gets other people to do the work for her — Drogon and the Unsullied took out the Astapori slavers, she sat in a tent when the fight for Yunkai was on, Barristan and Jorah and Grey Worm crawled through the sewers in Meereen. Other people do her torturing and interrogating for her and I'm certain she didn't crucify those people herself

Er, surely thats the case with anyone in a leadership position? Tywin, Robb, et al, don't personally pull off their various stunts either. She comes as close to the front lines of the battle as is sensible for something who isn't a warrior, and she's hardly self indulgent as an administrator when it comes to keeping long hours and not delegating responsibilities. (arguably she's too hands on micromanaging, if anything.)

[deleted01]

I was mostly referring to the fact that she gets other people to do the work for her — Drogon and the Unsullied took out the Astapori slavers, she sat in a tent when the fight for Yunkai was on, Barristan and Jorah and Grey Worm crawled through the sewers in Meereen. Other people do her torturing and interrogating for her and I'm certain she didn't crucify those people herself.

I think you can accurately say that she gave up a lot of her own happiness to attempt to secure Meereen by accepting the marriage proposal, yes. But I don't think that's the same as saying that she worked hard.

Fair enough, I suppose I misspoke. That's true, for all her "I am the blood of the dragon" crap, she doesn't do an awful lot herself. But like above, not a lot of leaders do, and they're older men. I can see why some people don't like Dany, and for my part she does annoy me with some things she says and does, but I think she's a brilliant character and if/when Martin gets off his arse and writes her some action, I'll be chuffed. Especially if it involves burning her way to the Iron Throne :D

[Ran]

But I don't think that's the same as saying that she worked hard.

Now you're getting into semantics. Diplomats work hard making peace, but they're not carrying bricks to build literal roads. Politicians work hard getting votes together.

The effort to make decisions, to decide what costs can be borne and which can't, are a part of the work of leadership, and as with any pursuit, it can be difficult work.

[eivers]

Her story to me is just kinda there, On rereads of the earlier books I could skip Dany chapters because it never really felt like I was missing out on anything by doing so. Now that a POV character is on his way to Dany that will most likely change but to me she is still kinda just there.

[FanTasy]

"We don't like Daenerys". Hmm ... I like provocative thread titles ;) so I won't ban myself from this thread if I happen to like Dany as one of the most well written characters in ASOIAF.

I like her character (mind you, the written one) while at the same time I find that she has made some awful decisions.

As in real life often decisionmakers with power make awful decisions, even when their decisions are grounded in that they want to do the just, protect the weak. Decisions that cause harm instead of the intended good.

What speaks for Dany, in my opinion, is that she seems able to reflect upon the outcome of her own decisions. She has learned the hard way what it means: "Eroeh all over again",

I am very curious how her character will proceed in the two remaining books. Will she develop (if she survives TWOW) into a better, wiser ruler, or will she proceed on the path of being led by emotional driven decisions.

[ASRAIL]

Yes, and many of them were led to their death. No one flocked to her, lots of people tried to obtain her dragons and later she did manage to get a following of traitorous sellswords and a lot of people who followed her army since her army destroyed their livelihoods, but no, no one flocked into her group. Save your time of getting to it later, the circumstance she was in to cheat the slavers required dragons.

They were small bunch of women. children and old men left alone in the wilderness with a 13 year old girl as their leader. The normal course of events would be all of them to die. But they didn't. Well they were slaves and as such I really don't think there was a way of life to destroy. And they choose to follow her after being freed. They could of choose to stay and try to build up their lives in Astapor as some of them did. Instead a fairly large portion of them choose to follow army on march that has to offer undoubtedly more difficult conditions of those in Astapor. I know this sounds like changing one master with new more cruel one but there was no way for them to know what will happen. And what I think is more important she really cares about those people.

A dead shell of a husband. "Look onto your husband's face and tell me how much life is worth, when all the rest is gone." Dany smothered Drogo with a pillow, she didn't "sacrifice" him. She did burn Mirri Maz Duur to death out of spite though, and that's what caused the spell. Someone can only be brave when they are afraid, Dany wasn't afraid and she burned a maegi in revenge, what was sacrificed?

So disabled person's life cost less than those of a healthy one?! She loved that man at the time and killing him was extremely painful to her. And obviously that count as sacrifice in blood magic rituals.

People successful in doing insane acts are still insane, just look at that guy who drank wildfire or Aegon V who lit Summerhall aflame, they were crazy for doing those things, and still would have been if it worked.

Here it is folks, a post that compares Dany's bloodmagic to hatch dragons to Alex Fleming leaving mold in a lab. Did this even make sense to you when you were typing it? Benjamin Franklin indicates that he was aware of the dangers and offered alternative ways to demonstrate that lightning was electrical, as shown by his use of the concept of electrical ground. Evidence shows that Franklin was insulated too, unlike Georg Richmann, who didn't take any precautions and got himself killed, what a crazy guy!

Don't you see the contradiction here? In your first post you said that doing crazy things is doing crazy things regardless of their succes and in second post you actually are saying that the difference between crazy act and ingeniousscientific experriment is succes. Keep in mind that Benjamin Franklin didn't actually knew whether his precautions would work or not. They only worked because his theory was right.

Bold was contradictory, and I assume you would never have seen any foreshadowing if you thought what she did was really clever in place of an achingly stupid bunch of slavers. Them being stupid is a deus ex machina.

So there are not greedy and stupid people in real life? People who were really close to her in the book didn't see that coming too although they knew as well how much she loves her dragons. So there are two assumptions from that point:

1. The whole double cross thing wasn't that obvious.

2. Her advisors which people don't liking Dany think she should have listened more are on the same not very high intelectual level as slave traders.

This is quite offensive, what I read was that I should re-read those parts and interpret it the way you did, when there wasn't even any interpreting to it! 1. The coup of Astapor. (Unleashing an army on defenseless slavers isn't brains, she basically lets them do all of the work.) 2. The Battle of Yunkai. (She remained in her tent all night.) 3. The siege of Meereen. (A failure to take militarily and was only possible because Jorah and a group of others crawled through sewers.) May you provide one instance where Dany provided the strategy for large scale combat?

I really wasn't trying to offend you. Sorry if I did. I was trying to say out loud and clear that you are not right and you should re-read that part to see it for yourself(that's what I did when you said I wasn't right about a certain part). At the end of the day when you are arguing over a book the text is the conclusive evidence and the text unambiguously says those things:

1. She was the one who came up with the plan of taking the Astapor and nobody even the ones closest to her didn't see it coming.

2. Yes she was in her tent but the guys on the battlefield were executing a battle strategy she came up with.

3. She came up with the idea of dismantling battleships and turning them into rams for the siege of Meereen and she actually wanted to lead the assault but her generals sugested she rather not.

I'm saying it again it's not her job to be on the battlefield. Her job is to make battle strategies and she does that job very well.

Divide and rule? You state it but misuse the term, divide et impera is a way to expand an already large empire's territories, its core elements requires things which Dany does not have. Nowhere does it state what you imply, it encourages distrust and division among vassals, none of which Dany has. Divide Et Impera does not have to do with enemies being severely punished, yes, the Romans did this, but is it what got them powerful? No, it's what sustained already existing power. Back to the story, I have already given you examples of people with a more forgiving and rational distribution of justice, and she had already conceived the notion of their demise a priori her enter of the city. Those people died without a reason and further inflamed the tension between the Meereenese and herself. Once you adopt and pay back your enemy atrocity for atrocity, eye for an eye, you become no better than that enemy. She has forgotten what death is because she didn't witness it herself, she simply said the words. And if you cannot bring it to yourself to do that, they probably didn't deserve to die.

Even if we assume that you are right it is a good valid history example of principles who would serve her cause well IMO because she was in state of power compared to her Meereenesy subjets(I'm not digging further into this because it's starting to get off topic. It was used just as example of valid historical policies). You are essentially right about eye for an eye policy in modern terms. But Dany's way of thinking has nothing to do with modern day way of thinking. She grew up in medieval like society where people were severely punished when they did something wrong. The slave traders made a decision as a group to crucify 163 children. And she made a decision to punish them as a group by crucifying 163 slave traders. You know that those particular 163 may have nothing to do with crucifiction of the children by they undoubtedly had many thousand of lifes destroyed by turning people into slaves. So yes they deserved it. And I'm saying it again she didn't forget what death is. I too think that the entire "who pronounces the sentence should swing the sword" thing is cool but then again do killing singlehandedly innocent people makes you better person? In ADWD there was a part when Dany's advisors were hostages that she should start killing hostiges to stop the killings of her own men but she didn't do it. If that doesn't prove that she isn't OK with randomly killing people I don't know what does.

Stay consistent, need I remind you that you said previously that by the standards of her time what she did wasn't so bad? And now you forgo the standards of that time in favor of a present standard? No monarchs have the right to rule in our current society, but in Westerosi custom, her claim is erroneous because she isn't an heir to the last ruler of the throne, Robert. Stannis has that right since he is Robert's next youngest (Not to mention the only living) brother of Robert. Your incompetence of forming a compelling argument is truly deserving of an award, but among the Dany fans, the competition is stiff!

I was essentially trying to say that suffering and death she causes goes hand to hand with every war not just the one she wages. Why when Robb started a rebellion for no other reason except pеrsonal revenge and the end result is destruction, suffering and death people are OK with it but when Dany started a war for the just cause of bringing end to slavery in certain part of the world and the end result is destruction, suffering and death but also thousands free slaves who are loving her for what she did is not OK? Don't get me wrong I like Robb and what he did but I don't like double standarts.

Dany doesn't even know about the Others' existence. I dearly hope what you say isn't true, because that would basically throw away the theme of this book. "We are divided and winter is here! We're starving and there is still war all across the land!" - Doesn't matter: Dragons. Martin destroys cliches, he doesn't follow through with them.

She will eventually go back to Westeros(at least I strongly hope so) and most likely wind abut them. The way you put it really sounds horrible but I was kind of hoping that she will stop the war once she is done with the the others and everything(one) that's standing on her way. The bolded section is another big reason why I like ASOIAF but I do really think that there is going to be big battle between Dany and the Others because she has three fire breathing dragons and the Others are associated with cold so I really think that this is the most logical thing to happen. But then again it's just me I would be very happy if GRRM has some big suprise up in his sleeve about this too. I guess we'll just have to wait and see...

I looked back, nope, I never said "It isn't fair.". I did have a whole lot of arguments against Dany though, none of which you addressed properly. Could it be because I have the right of it? :dunno:

My first post wasn't addressed at you. If you look back in the previous thread you'll some posts which actually stated that.

[PatrickStormborn]

I was mostly referring to the fact that she gets other people to do the work for her — Drogon and the Unsullied took out the Astapori slavers, she sat in a tent when the fight for Yunkai was on, Barristan and Jorah and Grey Worm crawled through the sewers in Meereen. Other people do her torturing and interrogating for her and I'm certain she didn't crucify those people herself.

She sat in a tent? Yes, of course she did, because her presence would have ruined the surprise. The attack on the Yunkish forces was her idea. You may not think that it counts as her winning a battle because it was incredibly deceitful, but it was still her plan.

Barristan et al. went through the sewers and helped her take the city, yes, but do you think any of the slaves in Meereen would have revolted if Dany wasn't sitting right outside the gates? Her presence is what gave them the motivation to rebel against their masters.

And as for crucifying the slavers herself... Do you think they crucified the 163 slave children themselves? Do you think anyone is capable of crucifying 163 people? She ordered it, yes, but she was still present when some of them died. Criticising her for not trying them is more than fair; criticising her for not crucifying them herself is a bit silly.

[Victaerys]

She's still little more than a child. I assume she will learn her lessons (she has already learned quite a lot of them). But her advisors need to get tougher with her, especially Barristan. If they keep treating her as an oriental despot who can do whatever the hell she pleases, then she won't grow up a good ruler.

I kept rolling my eyes every time she thought about Dario, but then I realized girls her age are stupid like that.

[Ice Turtle]

Her anger flashed. “Have you forgotten who I am?”

“No. Have you?”

Viserys would have his head off for that insolence. “I am the blood of the dragon. Do not presume to teach me lessons.” ADwD

This is kind of unsettling, even thinking what Vierys would have done. I wonder if she done in elsewhere in the books.

[Ramsay's Third Nipple]

I never really liked Dany's chapters. I always stopped reading directly before, hesitating to pick the books up again until a certain motivation came down on me to struggle through it. That being said, I don't understand what people really expect from Dany.

She hasn't been taught to rule. She hasn't been taught to fight with a sword. She hasn't even learned about the art warfare and strategy. I hardly expect her to go to the frontlines and engage in enemies, and she'd be stupid if she did.

[Sevumar]

In the last installment, Eivers asked if it still counted as a sacrifice if the people were already dead (PatrickStormborn said yes), and Nev yn wondered if Dany's "sacrifice" of Rhaego was that much different from Aegon V's (alleged?) sacrifice of the Duncans.

I don't think that Drogo and Rhaego count as "sacrifices" toward the effort to hatch the dragons. The only living person on that pyre was MMD. Her life was the one that paid for the eggs hatching.

I do think that when Mirri was performing the ritual in Drogo's tent, where the eggs were, and Dany was carried in, Rhaego was involved in somekind of "exchange" that nullified the petrified quality of the eggs and restored them to viability. But that doesn't count as a sacrifice, since Dany neither made the decision to enter the tent, nor seemed aware of the it as it occurred.

At the core of it, Dany embodies two qualities that are major pet peeves of mine: a lack of curiosity, and a tendency to make decisions based on feelings in the moment rather than a careful investigation/exploration of the options. I've often said that she deserves credit for good intentions, but she has often made a mess when trying to deliver on them.

[David Selig]

BTW, even the Starks don't execute everyone personally. When Rickard Karstark murdered the prisoners, Robb ordered the 5 men who helped him do it executed too, but didn't do it himself.

[FanTasy]

I don't think that Drogo and Rhaego count as "sacrifices" toward the effort to hatch the dragons. The only living person on that pyre was MMD. Her life was the one that paid for the eggs hatching.

I do think that when Mirri was performing the ritual in Drogo's tent, where the eggs were, and Dany was carried in, Rhaego was involved in somekind of "exchange" that nullified the petrified quality of the eggs and restored them to viability. But that doesn't count as a sacrifice, since Dany neither made the decision to enter the tent, nor seemed aware of the it as it occurred.

At the core of it, Dany embodies two qualities that are major pet peeves of mine: a lack of curiosity, and a tendency to make decisions based on feelings in the moment rather than a careful investigation/exploration of the options. I've often said that she deserves credit for good intentions, but she has often made a mess when trying to deliver on them.

Possible. But remember that Dany felt life in one of the eggs before Mirri Maz Duur's death. For this life the price was already paid.

I suspect that the sacrifice of a death for life was enough to 'activate' the eggs and that the fire pyre was needed to crack the shells to free the dragons.

Dany tried to heat them on a brazer but the heat was not enough to crack the shell.

[tze]

Her anger flashed. “Have you forgotten who I am?”

“No. Have you?”

Viserys would have his head off for that insolence. “I am the blood of the dragon. Do not presume to teach me lessons.” ADwD

This is kind of unsettling, even thinking what Viserys would have done.

What's also unsettling is the "Do not presume to teach me lessons" part.