50 replies to this topic

[Tyler Snow]

So going into yet another re-read of GoT something hit me within the first few pages and I was wondering what the general feeling is about it. It concerns Waymar Royce, not as the end all be all of the discussion but the seeming ramifications that his tale, albeit a short one, has on the NW and how they are viewed. Basically it comes down to one simple question; Why was Waymar leading the ranging?

In the opening POV chapter it is established by Will that Waymar is a mere six months removed from taking the black. That he himself has been a ranger for four years and that Gared has FORTY YEARS of experience. So Waymar is not the commanding ranger by experience.

Now, one can assume that he is the appointed leader due to the fact that Waymar is coming from an ancient and noble house, has had years of tutelage in the arts of war and startegy etc. However, doesn't that conflict with the very vows of the NW? To forsake all land and titles? If those vows are to be held sacred than Waymar is the most novice and should be following not leading. Also, the Wildings fight with what I assume is disorganized and guerilla style warfare, I'm sure a departure from the organized formations and clashing of noble armies that Waymar was learned in (for proof of this, just Will's comment that the trees make for close fighting and a knife is better than a sword here shows Waymar's lack of understanding in the wooded combat the rangers engage in. Even the horse Waymar rides was an ignorant choice).

For me, that leads to only one logical explanation which is that Jeor Mormont gave the command to Royce. Why? He is green, by all accounts, and seemingly learned nothing during his training at Castle Black and was able to mask his arrogance well enough to be given a command.

It does seem that incoming noble born recruits are viewed as a commodity to be groomed for command, basically an OCS of sorts that produces officers who may be taksed with leading battled hardened veterans right out of West Point or a similar military academy. However, the current status of the NW, its depleted ranks, should argue against this line of thinking in the name of preserving numbers and ensuring the maximum amount of survivability. Excepting the Lord Commander, I had assumed that the NW was a meritocricy, that experience trumps high or low birth.

The fact that the NW perpetuates high/low born differences seems nonsensical and downright irresponsible. Now, if Gared was leading the ranging instead of Waymar there is no guarantee that the Others would not have got them. But, we do know the outcome of having Waymar lead the ranging.

While you certainly have to fault Royce for his decisions in the field on the ranging, I feel as if most of the blame should fall to Mormont, who had to have given the command to Waymar in hopes of his gaining experience. Instead, it is a folly that leads to the NW precious numbers dropping by three.

I was just wondering if my line of thinking is what others had when they read this opening chapter and if it dawned on them as well as being somewhat out of line with what the NW says it stands for.

[FanTasy]

Good catch! I noticed at a re-read that this lordling did not serve for a long time. The command structure at the Wall seems to be pretty 'highborn', except Cotter Pyke.
Maybe Mormont wasn't the one who gave Royce the lead, though. Benjen Stark was First Ranger.

[Tyler Snow]

That's true. It may have been Benjen that gave him the command but, again, it just seems opposite to what the NW stands for. It is entirely possible that Waymar had been the subordinate on a few other rangings, proved himself reliable, and then let dreams of ambition and glory cloud his judgement into his downfall, but I would still think the NW would be based more off of experience than birth.

Ah well, old habits die hard I suppose.

[protar]

I think it's quite clear from the books that a lot of the class divide isn't left beind in the Night's Watch. Like Bowen Marsh complaining when Jon made Satin his steward because the LC's steward is usually a highborn being groomed for command.

[Feather Crystal]

I too just started a reread of the books and am not that far into aGoT. My take this second time around was that Mormont made a mistake in appointing Waymar as a leader of that ranging party and that he acknowledged he made a mistake to Tyrion. He says to Tyrion, "The Royce boy was green as summer grass, yet he insisted on the honor of his own command, saying it was his due as a knight. I did not wish to offend his lord father, so I yielded. I sent him out with two men I deemed as good as any in the Watch. More fool I."

Before and after this dialog, Mormont complains about the shrinking numbers of the Night's Watch and the quality of men. He also thinks himself too old, but dares not step down because he didn't think there was anyone of quality to hand the reigns over to. He says of Alliser Thorne and Bowen Marsh, "I would have to be as blind as Maester Aemon not to see what they are. The Night's Watch has become an army of sullen boys and tired old men." Near the end of the conversation he states that it is "...all we can do to stay alive."

I think Mormont made his decision based on fear. He wants more and better men sent to the Wall and doesn't want to discourage lords from sending them, and therefore allows Waymar to lead when Mormont knows he's not qualified. He tries to compensate Waymar's lack of experience by sending Gared. He sees that was a mistake now, and I believe that's why he seized upon Jon and made him his personal steward. Jon's leadership skills easily outshone anyone else and he's been providing quality instruction to the new recruits. I'm sure Jon was welcome relief to Mormont's worries.

[Tyler Snow]

^ Awesome. I had totally forgotten that conversation with Tyrion and it does make perfect sense. I figured it had to be Mormont playing politics in an effort to garner more support from the southern lords. You'd like to think he could operate free of that fear and, if he didn't give Waymar the command, I don't think it would have been a huge detriment to anyone but Waymar but it does make sense.

[FanTasy]

It probably was class discrimination combined with some pragmatism. If you were highborn and sent to the Wall you would get a nice command, because the ones on top who were the decision makers were your peers. But if you were highborn you were probably also trained from childhood in using a sword and in leading men, in giving commands.

[Solaris]

Perhaps the point was to take Waymar down a peg or two?
Perhaps it could have been the LC's intention to serve him an overdue lesson in humility that back fired a beauty. Send them out, let him carry on like he does, allow him to get beat good and proper and then come back?

As pointed out he hasn't taken his vows to set aside his past yet so perhaps this is why he is being treated as a better? We have seen how members of the NW still use appropriate titles etc with those who are not of the watch and I can envision Waymar reminding them all constantly of the fact that until he dons the black he is still better than them. Thats my best guess.

[DirePenguin]

Solaris, on 14 February 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:

Perhaps the point was to take Waymar down a peg or two?
Perhaps it could have been the LC's intention to serve him an overdue lesson in humility that back fired a beauty. Send them out, let him carry on like he does, allow him to get beat good and proper and then come back?

As pointed out he hasn't taken his vows to set aside his past yet so perhaps this is why he is being treated as a better? We have seen how members of the NW still use appropriate titles etc with those who are not of the watch and I can envision Waymar reminding them all constantly of the fact that until he dons the black he is still better than them. Thats my best guess.

That kid hadn't taken his vows? Really?

Anyway it seems to me that Night's Watch wasn't really that self-sufficient. Ben had to take a lot of supplies from Winterfel - crows, rations. I suspect they need those supplies from other great houses too. That's why Waymare got the privilege.

Edited by DirePenguin, 14 February 2012 - 05:20 AM.

[Solaris]

DirePenguin, on 14 February 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

That kid hadn't taken his vows? Really?

Anyway it seems to me that Night's Watch wasn't really that self-sufficient. Ben had to take a lot of supplies from Winterfel - crows, rations. I suspect they need those supplies from other great houses too. That's why Waymare got the privilege.

Quote

In the opening POV chapter it is established by Will that Waymar is a mere six months removed from taking the black.

I may have interpreted Tylers meaning incorrectly............... my aGoT is still on loan (grrrrrr).

I want to agree with why he got special treatment but I keep coming back to the fact that Jon Snow didn't and everyone knew how much Ned Stark loved him... I don't know. So I will shut up now.

[David Selig]

Solaris, on 14 February 2012 - 05:41 AM, said:

I want to agree with why he got special treatment but I keep coming back to the fact that Jon Snow didn't and everyone knew how much Ned Stark loved him... I don't know. So I will shut up now.

The Lord Commander chose to groom Jon for his heir the moment he finished his training. How is that not special treatment?

Despite all the talk about equality, the Night's Watch is far from that. The noble born gets most of the command positions, especially among the rangers. The Old Bear, Benjen, Dennis Mallister. Jaremy Rykker, Toren Smallwood... Part of this is of course class discrimination, but thre's also another factor. The nobles at the wall are usually people who joined voluntarily or were forced to do it because they lost a war. The common born are almost all criminals. I know a brother's past and his crimes is supposed to be forgotten after he puts on the black, but surely most NW officers would rather put a volunteer in charge than a murderer or a rapist.

Edited by David Selig, 14 February 2012 - 06:01 AM.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

I believe they sent him out for training. And they sent Gared and Will with him because they were such competent rangers.

[Solaris]

David Selig, on 14 February 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

The Lord Commander chose to groom Jon for his heir the moment he finished his training. How is that not special treatment?

Despite all the talk equality, the Night's Watch is far from that. The noble born gets most of the command positions, especially among the rangers. The Old Bear, Benjen, Dennis Mallister. Jaremy Rykker, Toren Smallwood...

As far as the daily routine goes Jon got no special treatment, in all fairness Jon did not know that he was being groomed for the LC position until Sam told him what the deal was with him being assigned to the stewards.

The fact we were given no inkling of special treatement through his POV points to well no special treatment. He certainly wasn't allowed to go lead brothers with zilch experience beyond the wall like Waymar, when Jon made it clear he really wanted to be a ranger. If Jon was being spoiled he would have told us about it and figured out without Sam's influence what Mormonts plan was...... IMO

[The Swaggering Bravo]

David Selig, on 14 February 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

The Lord Commander chose to groom Jon for his heir the moment he finished his training. How is that not special treatment?

Despite all the talk equality, the Night's Watch is far from that. The noble born gets most of the command positions, especially among the rangers. The Old Bear, Benjen, Dennis Mallister. Jaremy Rykker, Toren Smallwood...

Cotter Pyke is an example of a low-born rising high. The Night's Watch is a shadow of its former self, they'll take anyone and prize those with nobility and honor. They are competent commanders and are well suited for the task, they do take away all lands and titles upon joining, but they cannot take away their experience in whichever field they were skilled in beforehand. Is it fair that Donal Noye became the armorer? Of course, since he was the best. It may not have been a meritocracy when they received the brunt of their training, but it was when deciding where they should go. List the Black Brothers and tell me that it's because of their low-birth instead of their incompetence that they don't have the positions that the former noble born do currently.

[David Selig]

Solaris, on 14 February 2012 - 05:58 AM, said:

As far as the daily routine goes Jon got no special treatment, in all fairness Jon did not know that he was being groomed for the LC position until Sam told him what the deal was with him being assigned to the stewards.

The fact we were given no inkling of special treatement through his POV points to well no special treatment. He certainly wasn't allowed to go lead brothers with zilch experience beyond the wall like Waymar, when Jon made it clear he really wanted to be a ranger. If Jon was being spoiled he would have told us about it and figured out without Sam's influence what Mormonts plan was...... IMO

Just because Jon was too dumb to figure it on his own doesn't mean he got no special treatment. If not for the Stark blood, the Old bear wouldn't have picked him so quickly.

Waymar didn't lead brothers while in training either. Besides, Jon got picked for a crucial mission by the Halfhand (much more important than Waymar's routine check up) while less experienced than Waymar.

Quote

Cotter Pyke is an example of a low-born rising high. The Night's Watch is a shadow of its former self, they'll take anyone and prize those with nobility and honor. They are competent commanders and are well suited for the task, they do take away all lands and titles upon joining, but they cannot take away their experience in whichever field they were skilled in beforehand. Is it fair that Donal Noye became the armorer? Of course, since he was the best. It may not have been a meritocracy when they received the brunt of their training, but it was when deciding where they should go. List the Black Brothers and tell me that it's because of their low-birth instead of their incompetence that they don't have the positions that the former noble born do currently.

The vast majority of the brother are commoners, yet most of the officers are nobles. That's not just because the nobles are better trained and more capable. Look at Allicer Thorne. Everybody knew he was a terrible teacher but he was in charge of training because he was noble born. It took one of his students attempting to kill him to remove him from that post. Or someone like Torren Smallwood. He hardly seemed competent with all his "we'll destroy the wildling easily even though they are 100 times more than us" bravado yet he was the First Ranger.

[Solaris]

David Selig, on 14 February 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

Just because Jon was too dumb to figure it on his own doesn't mean he got no special treatment. If not for the Stark blood, the Old bear wouldn't have picked him so quickly.

Waymar didn't lead brothers while in training either. Besides, Jon got picked for a crucial mission by the Halfhand (much more important than Waymar's routine check up) while less experienced than Waymar.

I said what I said about leading in training because I misinterpreted Tylers meaning (see previous quote) it is what caught my interest. I cannot agree to assume any special treatment took place where there is no textual evidence to support the theory.

[Feather Crystal]

Promoting men of higher birth may appear on the surface as giving preferencial treatment, but doesn't it make sense that these men would most likely already be trained to use a sword and that would be educated and can read?

[Howling Mad]

Lord Mormont admits sending Waymer Royce on the ranging was a mistake when speaking with Tyrion.  The bigger question is why GRRM chose Waymer Royce over a random BW brother to turn into an Other?  The Royce House is loyal to the Vale and the Vale is the only house so far uninvolved in the war.  Does Waymer being the first victim of the Others help solidify the support of the Vale to the aid of the NW?

Edited by Howling4Reed, 29 February 2012 - 01:55 AM.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

Tyler Snow, on 13 February 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

^ Awesome. I had totally forgotten that conversation with Tyrion and it does make perfect sense. I figured it had to be Mormont playing politics in an effort to garner more support from the southern lords. You'd like to think he could operate free of that fear and, if he didn't give Waymar the command, I don't think it would have been a huge detriment to anyone but Waymar but it does make sense.

i forgot about that too. i never thought about it until i watched episode 1 on HBO, i immediately went back to the books to figure out why he was the one in charge...

[Lord Bear Mormont]

I just can't figure out why 3 NW would follow a wildling raiding party 8 or 9 days north. After starting a re-read of AGOT it seems that Royce was determined to catch up with them or find where they came from? Doesn't it seem odd that a ranging would take the 3 NW 8 or 9 days from the wall? In the opening chapter Royce's clothing is described in detail. Isn't a wight described as this when Samwell kills one?