Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Mormont in AGOT: "The Royce boy was green as summer grass." "I sent him out with two men I deemed as good as any in the Watch. More fool I."He goes on that Gared was very experienced and yet he foreswore his duties and fled, and that he would have never thought this possible.One could say that Royce was not wise to not listen to his men, especially to one who was very experienced. There is a word for management where one doesn't listen to experienced co-workers, it is called arrogance.It got Royce killed and wightified.Perhaps it was arrogance, but Gareds advice was pure bullshit. Listening to him would have meant failure. In a way, it foreshadows the relation between Jon and Bowen in Dance. The young but competent leader focusses on the mission (information gathering or protecting mankind) while the old experienced follower sabotages the mission out of fear irrationally hoping the danger will go away if they don't look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Perhaps it was arrogance, but Gareds advice was pure bullshit. Listening to him would have meant failure. In a way, it foreshadows the relation between Jon and Bowen in Dance. The young but competent leader focusses on the mission (information gathering or protecting mankind) while the old experienced follower sabotages the mission out of fear irrationally hoping the danger will go away if they don't look at it.Yes, nice catch about the foreshadowing. Both Royce and Jon were not very good at communicating their goal in a way that made their men follow them wholeheartedly. It is not wise management to think that if you know things are wise and right, your subordinates will think the same just because you're their leader and tell them what is the right thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The BlackBear Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 I never understood why Royce gets bashed for wanting to see the wildlings himself. It's his first Ranging, they're far enough away from the wall the little extra time to find them wouldn't have made any difference. He wants to be absolutely sure he's secured the objective before returning to the wall. He probably was too inexperienced, but that isn't what killed him, what killed him was that he got jumped by others, which no one would have been able to deal with in the situation, not Benjen (almost certainly happened) or the Halfhand, or Mance for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkbringer Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 This entire senario struck me as strange also. Why was Wayman the leader of this ranging? They were unaware of the return of the Others at this point so no fear there.He acted as if the other two NW Rangers where his servants rather than equals or more experienced Rangers. Wasn't he rather young as stated by Sansa in her recollection of him passing through Winferfell on his way to wall? What did he do to get sent to the NW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 This entire senario struck me as strange also. Why was Wayman the leader of this ranging? They were unaware of the return of the Others at this point so no fear there.He acted as if the other two NW Rangers where his servants rather than equals or more experienced Rangers. Wasn't he rather young as stated by Sansa in her recollection of him passing through Winferfell on his way to wall? What did he do to get sent to the NW?Waymar is a (young) officer groomed for command. He had ~20 years of training for that role and volunteered for the Nights Watch. The other two rangers are (somewhat experienced) grunts who spent their childhood plowing fields instead of training with swords and at commanding and they were sentenced to the Nights Watch.And of course Ser Waymar Royce was the leader of the ranging. He was actually competent and did his duty while his grunts pissed their breeches at an irrational fear and tried to hide their heads beneath the snow. If the Others had't put up the trap, Waymar would have gathered experience and would be a viable candidate for castle commander, First Ranger or Lord Commander in time.By and large, he is Jon Snow without luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkbringer Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 OK, so I re-read this part of AGOT and Sir Waymar was 18 and the younger of a long line of heirs. This is why he came to the Wall. He was as arrogant as they come and I agree the best thing about him was his wardrobe. The 2 accompanying Rangers knew something was very wrong but were afraid to tell Royce because he was always chiding them. They did try but he would not listen. He could not have had more than 13 years or so of training and thought he was smarter than his companions and maybe he was better educated but he lacked Ranging experience and would have done well to listen to the other men. Mormont would have sent a larger group to investigate if the first three had returned to tell their tale. Jon Snow might have been as green as Royce but he is by and far a better man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The BlackBear Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 OK, so I re-read this part of AGOT and Sir Waymar was 18 and the younger of a long line of heirs. This is why he came to the Wall. He was as arrogant as they come and I agree the best thing about him was his wardrobe. The 2 accompanying Rangers knew something was very wrong but were afraid to tell Royce because he was always chiding them. They did try but he would not listen. He could not have had more than 13 years or so of training and thought he was smarter than his companions and maybe he was better educated but he lacked Ranging experience and would have done well to listen to the other men. Mormont would have sent a larger group to investigate if the first three had returned to tell their tale.Jon Snow might have been as green as Royce but he is by and far a better man.Royce was young and green and disrespected by the men. The men had a 'bad feeling,' in the modern military you should proceed with more caution if you get a bad feeling, but abandoning a mission because your command get spooked is completely unacceptable.How does it make more sense to go back to the wall for another larger party to come all the way back, than just going over and checking what happened to your quarry? They were sent to kill them so it wasn't like they weren't expected to be able to deal with a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkbringer Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Royce was young and green and disrespected by the men. The men had a 'bad feeling,' in the modern military you should proceed with more caution if you get a bad feeling, but abandoning a mission because your command get spooked is completely unacceptable.How does it make more sense to go back to the wall for another larger party to come all the way back, than just going over and checking what happened to your quarry? They were sent to kill them so it wasn't like they weren't expected to be able to deal with a fight.Considering that Will "was the verteran of a hundred rangings" I'd say he was more than a little spooked. He knew the territory well and knowing when to retreat is also a part of being a good commander. In the modern world what Royce did was the equivalent of leading his men into an ambush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The BlackBear Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Considering that Will "was the verteran of a hundred rangings" I'd say he was more than a little spooked. He knew the territory well and knowing when to retreat is also a part of being a good commander. In the modern world what Royce did was the equivalent of leading his men into an ambush.So you find another way to achieve the objective. Don't just give up and go home. He was being rational, rationally there aren't monsters in the forest, and no one had encountered one before, so the worse he would be dealing with were wildlings, which they were prepared for anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Last Eunuchorn Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 I think it's quite clear from the books that a lot of the class divide isn't left beind in the Night's Watch. Like Bowen Marsh complaining when Jon made Satin his steward because the LC's steward is usually a highborn being groomed for command.True that. It is also (presumably) more pragmatic to give command/leadership to men who have already had some experience of what leadership entails (e.g.: literacy, numeracy, some policy and governance etc). Unfortunately the average bastard from Flea Bottom probably wouldn't have the first idea of how to delegate, command, and keep hundreds of men fed, clothed, and warm. Not to mention some other lords might resent having to deal with a lowborn bastard everytime they needed to deal with the Night's Watch (Cersei comes to mind) :mellow: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkbringer Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 It is obvious that neither Gared or Will were leadership material. They were Rangers for 40 and 4 years with no hope of advancement. I do understand Lord Mormonts decision to send Royce as the commander of the group. My point was that Sir Wayman arrogance made it easy for us to watch him die. It was meant to be that way because that's the way GRRM wrote it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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