414 replies to this topic

[brashcandy]

MaryaStone, on 13 February 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

I agree with you, I think it would be sweet will be sweet, because it would be the first time for both or them. Perhaps none of them will be a virgin when it happens, but it will be the first time any of them has ever made love, to a person they really love.

I have the impression that he'll be her first man because of all the foreshadowing. He witnessed (in a way) her sexual awakening. He was even there when she had her first period and stopped her from falling. He also was the first man she desired ( I'm not sure Joff and Loras could count as that), so I think he'll be her first, and maybe her last, as well.

I would say that she did desire Loras, but he represents something that she could never have, It's actually a sobering lesson for Sansa too - the man that is the epitome of beauty in her eyes, but whose (unbeknownst to her) sexuality places him off limits. What's interesting is that with Loras, she pretty much gets that he isn't interested in her, and doesn't fantasise about him as a result. He doesn't feature in her dreams etc. But with Sandor now, we haven't seen any conscious thoughts on her part about what the Hound feels for her, and yet she's fantasising. It's odd because if you're admitting a man is kissing you, why isn't she thinking along the lines of "woah, does this mean he wants me?" It's like her body has already gotten to the destination and her mind is still struggling to catch up, or is the other way around?

Edited by brashcandy, 13 February 2012 - 09:03 PM.

[brashcandy]

From Woman of War (replying to MaryaStone)

Finally i have the time to answer to that topic, thanks for reminding me.
I think it is - on a formal level - not easy to compare both characters because we have no Sandor POV. Most of what readers and posters assume about his character is indeed drawn from a meticulate and exegetic analysis of small hints in the text where Tyrion's thoughts, wishes and actions are clearly obvious to us readers. Sandor is the big mystery where every reader can project his interpretations while Tyrion is literally an open book to us readers.
As you write, Marya, Tyrion has a "sort of epicurean attitude to life", we know this because we read about his joy in food (and wine), he perceives beautiful materials, beautiful clothes, is interested in architecture and, as we know, in learning and books. So we get a rather accurate picture of his personal preferences.
I happen to like the character Tyrion because, what a coincidence, I have about the same hobbies.
There is no way for me to know as much about Sandor. About this character so few informations are given, so every interested reader is able to shape his own little Sandor in his imagination, to build up his own projection, to load Sandor with attributes that make him interesting as character or even as erotic object of desire. He is in every reader's imagination exactly the enigmatic character that invites to be discussed, to dream of and to be shipped. This is why there are so many threads about Sandor: every interested reader has his own way of approach to that character and those threads serve to tune up your own Sandor scale with the keys and sounds perceived by other posters because there is no clear and unmistakable statement about the character given by the author. Everybody is invited to fabricate his own little Sandor after the few hints given in the text, like analysing a religious text. I admit this can be fun, it is an exercise of mind and people posting here enjoy mindgames (that's why I enjoy the character Tyrion, hehe ) but it should stay a game, with all the detachment and irony that makes it a splendid pleasure and not a reason to bash your fellow poster.

Whereas with Tyrion we have very clear informations. We know, as I said, about his private fancies and we have very precise informations about his sexual habits, which we can like or dislike. But the author says: WHAMM! Like that character or hate him! He is the way he is, the way I wanted him, you can't try with sophisticated arguments to make his flaws and crimes disappear, no 17 threads will make Symon, Shae or Tywin come alive, there is murder. We know about his twisted and tortured personality, his misanthropy, his sarcasm etc. We know when he raped and even what he thought when he did it. And we have part in his way into darkness which he followed during most of ADWD.
The informations we have about Sandor cannot be compared. To begin with the nasty part: has he been nicer to the prostitutes in the brothels he visited than Tyrion was? Did he pillage without raping? Did he kill without torturing while all the other hired killers did? So many posters have insisted: "oh no, he would never have done it, it is so out of his character!" and if he did, "he is on his redemption arc now". Well, that would not wake up potential victims, no more than a possible turn of Tyrion's character away from moral bancruptcy will wake up Shae or Tywin.
As you said, Marya, there has been and there even now is at least a little joy in Tyrion's life. i would not say that Sandor wallows in self pity but he imo wallows in misery. He does not try to see the glass half full, to him every glass is half empty (booze, I'll mention it later). No, Sandor has no I llusions about life. Do I like that? Sandor is an extremely interesting character with his history but no, I do not like his approach to life, there is no erotics in it to me, I cannot fabricate the the dark, strong sexy lover out of it. As character Sandor does not have enough facets for me, the little we know about him is too onedimentional to me.
What I truly enjoy in the character Tyrion is precisely this this inner monologue that may sometimes sound just like self pity. ( we do not have a Sandor inner monologue like: "damn, bugger that, the shit always hits my head, this couldn't go but wrong, that fucking bloody pretty wench always makes me more damn miserable than I was anyway........", we simply do not have anything like that) Despite all those grisly events that happened to Tyrion - he had his part in them, you need not mention it - he is still able to enjoy being alive, to see beauty where he finds it, in Septa Lemore or in the mystical surroundings of the boat travel. He knows how love feels, he is able to feel the longing for it and he knows that he longs for it and does not stop to believe in its possibilty. No, this character is alive as long as he is not truly dead, life is so full of possibilities. Tyrion's character gives us every moral approach possible, from the worst to the best, every emotion, from disgust to love to hatred and compassion. He is imo about the most multilayered character in the books.
Yes, Tyrion may be into self destruction by now, trying to be exactly the vile monster everybody, including himself, sees in him. Do not forget that Sandor once has been a nice little boy looking more or less cute while Tyrion from the first day of his life only met disgust in people. Even his first woman, his wetnurse, only touched him because she was paid for it. And the way he saw the Tysha catastrophe must have made it even more clear that it is money that makes people touch him. Aren't his indestructible and pathetic illusions about Shae's feelings actually a sign that he is not emotionally dead, that prostitutees are precisely not a masturbation tool to him?
Although I believe that Tyrion's sex life is grossly overrated in the debate: has he any sex in AGOT at all until Shae? Only in HBO I believe. And in ADWD he has sex exacty once, that gruesome scene with the slave prostitute with dead eyes. And the main topic with Shae was not sex, it was their twisted relationship. So sex is grossly overrated in the debate about Tyrion.
And we do not know any thing about the frequency of Sandor's brothel visits, so no way to give a reasonable evaluation.
Yes, Tyrion has a severe alcohol problem. And probably by now Sandor - if he is meant to be alive at all by Martin - has learned to live without booze. I cannot know if Sandor's fate ends on the Quiet Isle. Like so many posters I believe he will be reactivated to do a grand deed involving fire.
I am not willing to give a final judgement about Tyrions character, actually about ANY character, before the books have ended. I think Tyrion's downward spiral was necessary for his storyline first to break his nobleman's pride. A charakter that is supposed to give us so much insight into how Martin's world works cannot stay a privileged rich kid that gets his meals cooked, his clothes washed and his horses groomed. He has to go down rock bottom, there where in fact 98% of the people in this world are anyway. And, second, to build the character up for future events he has to be corrupted, Martin wants to give him work to do not only on plot level but in conflict with himself. Tyrion is maybe the character that does the widest balance act between "good" and "evil" from all characters so far, described in every pathetic detail.
No, I do not think that for the sake of catharsis morally corrupted characters like Sandor or Tyrion have to go out in a grandiose finale because the reader wants them to be justly punished. This may happen but seeing it as inevitable climax to satisfy the "typical" reader's desire for correct redemption would indeed be cliché. More so, since every reader may have a different idea of what constitutes the unforgivable sin in a particular character. Indeed we will find many events that cause quite opposite moral evaluations in posters. So who has to be redeemed to which degree and does not deserve any kind of happy ending? There is absolute ideology of morality among us posters.
So far I do not see if Sandor or Tyrion are moving towards doom or towards light. I can judge actions fhat have been done or the things a character did not do but should have done but I will refrain from a final moral judgement of any character until the last book is written.

Edited by brashcandy, 13 February 2012 - 07:58 PM.

[clover]

Wow, guys, that was some stellar posting back in that last thread. Very insightful.

I always thought he was seriously pissed, that in his mind, Tyrion got to touch his bird. I think it killed him when he most certainly thought of their marriage and believed he had sex with her, and he was miffed that it was Tyrion. Tyrion put his filthy hands on his girl, er, not him. And hinking of how young and innocent and sweet she was, it totally bothered him.

And that is what is sad. He doesn't know that Sansa never did anything with Tyrion which would relieve Sandor to no end.

Also, these posts really brought home the fact that yeah, he wants sex, but love and tenderness too. He can do gentle; we know that. And it is so sad that Sansa is probably the only girl that really wanted to kiss him and she also wanted him willingly in her bed, but probably no other girl in his life did.

Probably the only woman who ever willingly wanted to kiss him in his life, and that being non-sexual, was his mother when he was little. And that was taken from him too, if his mother showed him affection, because she died.

He does seem to want these things. But with his coarse language and gruff demeanor and actions, he can use them to push her aways so before, what he believes is her rejection of him, can sting too much. But it is always when he has to save her or defend her that this better nature of his peeps out.

These two. There is just a lot of investment here. Time and thooughts.

[brashcandy]

Recent topics of discussion:

- Sandor vs. Tyrion
- Sandor's sexuality - prowess, confidence, insecurities
- The only thing he may have to offer Sansa - his fighting skills
- The hound's helm and how it will impact on Sandor's growth going forward
- How will GRRM choose to wrap up this character's fate - life/death
- Sandor as father figure, also representing the Stranger in the Seven's religion
- Sandor and the connection to Lady
- Sandor vs. Littlefinger

Post away!

[Ednawolf]

With regards to the Hound Helm, I think it would be interesting if Sandor ever came across it again and chose not to repossess it.

I also think that helm is going to be bad news for Lem Lemoncloak.

Grrrrr... damn mouse. See full post below...

Edited by Ednawolf, 13 February 2012 - 08:45 PM.

[Ednawolf]

Regarding the Hound Helm, it would be interesting to see if he ever comes across it again and chose not to repossess it.   I also think that helm is going to be bad news for Lem Lemoncloak.

With regards for only having his fighting skills to offer Sansa, I assume that eventually the Others are going to get past the Wall and make a full fledge attack on Westeros, in which case it may be that those fighting skills are the best possible thing he has to offer Sansa.   I also think that he has -- or will someday have -- his love to offer her.  I think that her lamentation that nobody will ever marry her for love is significant.

[clover]

Quote

With regards for only having his fighting skills to offer Sansa, I assume that eventually the Others are going to get past the Wall and make a full fledge attack on Westeros, in which case it may be that those fighting skills are the best possible thing he has to offer ]

By Ednawolf

Yeah, and this makes me feel better about a possible future together for them. Nobody is going to care who marries who once everyone is running away from or fighting off the Others.

Still experimenting with this quoting crap. Bare with me.

Okay, I take that back. I think I figured out how to do it right by accident. LOL!

Edited by clover, 13 February 2012 - 09:13 PM.

[Starbird]

Starbird: I'll just add that, when he tells Sansa killing is the sweetest thing there is, I think we need to take that with a grain of salt. By then, the man's been working overtime selling his "knights aren't worth crap" spiel to her, and there she is asking if he's worried about going to hell, basically devaluing the only thing he can feel proud of. He has nothing, nothing!, else to impress her with besides his martial skill. Looks, money, status on par with hers, lands, none of those are in stock in his girl-wooing arsenal. So, of couse killing is the sweetest thing there is. What else is he going to say? "Babysitting Joffrey is the sweetest thing there is?" He's trying to impress a girl, and the girl's not biting.

Brash: Starbird, this is so true! That's why when she tries to thank him for saving her he gets so offended, and wants to brush it off (even though he's secretly pleased) because he was fighting against a bunch of villagers, and he doesn't think this really proves anything to Sansa. I think a real part of him began to feel some anxiety that she didn't think he had done shit

Sorry to be obnoxious and quote myself. Honestly, I wasn't thinking of it this way, but this is a good theory. I was seeing it more as, he thought he'd made some progress with her and, when she runs into him (yet again), she glances away from him and he goes all face-crazy.

Quote

Sansa twisted in his grasp. "I wasn't going to fall. It was only . . . you startled me, that's all."

"You mean I scared you. And still do."

She took a deep breath to calm herself. "I thought I was alone, I . . ." She glanced away.

"The little bird still can't bear to look at me, can she?" The Hound released her. "You were glad enough to see my face when the mob had you, though. Remember?"

Then she tries to thank him and he plays it off like it's no big thing. And, really, what choice did he have, seeing as how his heroics didn't even get him the reward of a look in the face, in his opinion? Then the whole conversation spirals out of control. He says her dad was a killer, she says it was his duty. He give his "what do you think knights are for?" speech and says he has nothing to fear so long as he's got his sword, and she thinks a rather mean thought that he's afraid of his brother, and isn't impressed with his bravado. He's nonchalant about being sent to hell and she tells him he's awful. He's had it by then and ends the conversation. Obviously he's done a little stewing over the whole riot thing and then, in their (very?) next encounter, he makes no headway at all and, in fact, seems to take a few steps backwards, saying that awful thing about Ned's legs jerking. He was a Grade A jerk here but he had to feel, at this point, that there was nothing he could do to impress her. Being big and bad and brave wasn't doing it and that's pretty much his schtick so . . . Sandor's at a loss.

As an aside, isn't it interesting that she runs into him twice after meeting with Dontos? It's like she's off in this play world and then is ambushed by reality on her way back to her room.

Edited by Starbird, 13 February 2012 - 09:27 PM.

[clover]

Quote

Then she tries to thank him and he plays it off like it's no big thing. And, really, what choice did he have, seeing as how his heroics didn't even get him the reward of a look in the face, in his opinion? Then the whole conversation spirals out of control. He says her dad was a killer, she says it was his duty. He give his "what do you think knights are for?" speech and says he has nothing to fear so long as he's got his sword, and she thinks a rather mean thought that he's afraid of his brother, and isn't impressed with his bravado. He's nonchalant about being sent to hell and she tells him he's awful. He's had it by then and ends the conversation. Obviously he's done a little stewing over the whole riot thing and then, in their (very?) next encounter, he makes no headway at all and, in fact, seems to take a few steps backwards, saying that awful thing about Ned's legs jerking. He was a Grade A jerk here but he had to feel, at this point, that there was nothing he could do to impress her. Being big and bad and brave wasn't doing it and that's pretty much his schtick so . . . Sandor's at a loss.

By Starbird.

God, he loves to burst her bubble(s).

And when that doesn't work, he loves to lay on the guilt trip or the you're-being-stupid lectures.

What cracks me up is that she can think he is mean, or be afraid of him, or whatever at times, but he should count his blessings that she never thought he was annoying. LOL!

Edited by clover, 13 February 2012 - 09:29 PM.

[childofsummer]

Ednawolf, on 13 February 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

Regarding the Hound Helm, it would be interesting to see if he ever comes across it again and chose not to repossess it.   I also think that helm is going to be bad news for Lem Lemoncloak.

With regards for only having his fighting skills to offer Sansa, I assume that eventually the Others are going to get past the Wall and make a full fledge attack on Westeros, in which case it may be that those fighting skills are the best possible thing he has to offer Sansa.   I also think that he has -- or will someday have -- his love to offer her.  I think that her lamentation that nobody will ever marry her for love is significant.

Are his fighting skills the only thing he has to offer her?  He may have thought so when he made his BWB offer, but most of the things he did for her in KL had nothing to do with his fighting skills.  He, though grumpy and bitter, treated her like a person.  He listened to her as though her opinions mattered, and got angry when he thought she was being hopelessly naive.  He (as they say in preschool) used his words to deflect Joff's wrath as much as he was able.  He gave her honest insight into the various snakes people around.  She feels that he would never let harm come to her (contrast Ser Ilyn).  As a captive, as much as Cersei & co. tried to dehumanize and isolate Sansa, Sandor was vital to allowing her to maintain her sense of self and as much agency and dignity as possible.  He had a huge psychological impact on her, and that's as significant or more significant than any physical protection he might be able to offer her in the future.

Edited by childofsummer, 13 February 2012 - 09:30 PM.

[brashcandy]

Starbird, on 13 February 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

Starbird: I'll just add that, when he tells Sansa killing is the sweetest thing there is, I think we need to take that with a grain of salt. By then, the man's been working overtime selling his "knights aren't worth crap" spiel to her, and there she is asking if he's worried about going to hell, basically devaluing the only thing he can feel proud of. He has nothing, nothing!, else to impress her with besides his martial skill. Looks, money, status on par with hers, lands, none of those are in stock in his girl-wooing arsenal. So, of couse killing is the sweetest thing there is. What else is he going to say? "Babysitting Joffrey is the sweetest thing there is?" He's trying to impress a girl, and the girl's not biting.

Brash: Starbird, this is so true! That's why when she tries to thank him for saving her he gets so offended, and wants to brush it off (even though he's secretly pleased) because he was fighting against a bunch of villagers, and he doesn't think this really proves anything to Sansa. I think a real part of him began to feel some anxiety that she didn't think he had done shit

Sorry to be obnoxious and quote myself. Honestly, I wasn't thinking of it this way, but this is a good theory. I was seeing it more as, he thought he'd made some progress with her and, when she runs into him (yet again), she glances away from him and he goes all face-crazy.



Then she tries to thank him and he plays it off like it's no big thing. And, really, what choice did he have, seeing as how his heroics didn't even get him the reward of a look in the face, in his opinion? Then the whole conversation spirals out of control. He says her dad was a killer, she says it was his duty. He give his "what do you think knights are for?" speech and says he has nothing to fear so long as he's got his sword, and she thinks a rather mean thought that he's afraid of his brother, and isn't impressed with his bravado. He's nonchalant about being sent to hell and she tells him he's awful. He's had it by then and ends the conversation. Obviously he's done a little stewing over the whole riot thing and then, in their (very?) next encounter, he makes no headway at all and, in fact, seems to take a few steps backwards, saying that awful thing about Ned's legs jerking. He was a Grade A jerk here but he had to feel, at this point, that there was nothing he could do to impress her. Being big and bad and brave wasn't doing it and that's pretty much his schtick so . . . Sandor's at a loss.

As an aside, isn't it interesting that she runs into him twice after meeting with Dontos? It's like she's off in this play world and then is ambushed by reality on her way back to her room.

Yes, Starbird I think I noted this very thing in the Sansa reread thread. She's off meeting with "Florian" but encountering Sandor is definitely a reality check and forces her to confront "real world" issues like her inability to lie, why it is that he likes being called a dog etc. Their interactions are open and honest and contribute to her growth unlike the Florian escapades which allow her to invest hope in the idea of some wonderful saviour.

As to the rest of your post, very insightful as usual! The conversation went to hell from the moment he realised she wouldn't look at his face. I think Sandor must have spent a lot of sleepless nights wondering just why he was so affected by this girl.

Edited by brashcandy, 13 February 2012 - 09:32 PM.

[clover]

She thinks of him from time to time. I like to think that he gave her something to hold on to with all the nuts and nuttiness at the Vale.

[Starbird]

brashcandy, on 13 February 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

Yes, Starbird I think I noted this very thing in the Sansa reread thread. She's off meeting with "Florian" but encountering Sandor is definitely a reality check and forces her to confront "real world" issues like her inability to lie, why it is that he likes being called a dog etc. Their interactions are open and honest and contribute to her growth unlike the Florian escapades which allow her to invest hope in the idea of some wonderful saviour.

As to the rest of your post, very insightful as usual! The conversation went to hell from the moment he realised she wouldn't look at his face. I think Sandor must have spent a lot of sleepless nights wondering just why he was so affected by this girl.

Sorry, I haven't been over to the Sansa reread thread in awhile! Great minds and all . . . I like your contrast between "thinking" and "hoping." Spot on!

Edited by Starbird, 13 February 2012 - 09:46 PM.

[Caro99]

The song that was posted earlier on really did seem to describe San/San’s relationship, especially for me in these lines:
- I was your joy and your pain: this totally sums up Sandor’s feelings for Sansa during ACOCK. He knows it’s wrong and can never be, and yet it his meetings with her must be the happiest moments of his life for a long time now.
- I am truth without lies: This sort of reminds me of the part where Sandor tells her he will basically never lie to her, unlike some certain little birds tend to do. After LF, Sansa may be very happy to be with a guy who does not lie to her about everything.
- I am the darkness of the night: The moment when Sandor tells Sansa about his scars and after the battle both happen in the dark, so…
- I am hope in empty darkness: Like the previous one, only here Sansa will be the light to save Sandor.
- I am the beauty in your heart: Sansa is the best thing to happen to Sandor in a very long time.
- I am the one who watches over you: Sandor every time he appears in the second book.


About the things mentioned about the rooftop scene, I find it funny that Sansa does not mention a single thing about what she felt when Sandor put his sword by her neck when he is talking about all the people he’s killed. Of course at this point we already see that Sandor is getting quite fed up with his daily life, so he is cross at her and after he did save her, she never even thanks him till after he brings up the subject, so… not the best of times for him. Of course that since he is really starting to truly feel for her, he just won’t give up so he starts to try to impress her with how good he is at killing. I think Starbird was the one who said that that was the only thing he could offer her at the time, and even after the battle he is still holding on to this when he offers her himself and his “services”. Maybe he never thought she could ever feel anything romantic for him, but if he sort of became her sworn-shield, then he would be proving his point that the thing he can offer her, if she accepts it, will not disappoint her at all.  Hopefully by the end, even though he still isn’t as rich as a Lannister or something, he will be able to offer her his love and all of him. He may think she doesn’t want him, but after she tells him that his love is enough, (sorry for being all corny & stuff), a better future can await them.

And oh gosh, Sandor in bed…   Well I do think that he would treat Sansa as a china doll and it would sort of be his first time since he would be all nervous and looking at her for approval and stuff, but it would be really sweet of him. The sort of erotic and rougher sex can come later, but I hope their first time together is sweet and gentle. The Hound may have had whores before, but Sandor’s only girl will be Sansa…
  But about the women he’s been with before, as always, I have to agree with Brashcandy and MaryaS, views of how he would be around them. And I can actually feel sorry for the whore when I remember the ferryman the Hound cheated. He was trying to be nice and pleasant at first, but Sandor sad something like, “Shut up. I don’t need your bloody wit.” So if he ever encountered a girl like Tysha who started to call him names and how fierce he looked, he would maybe even yank her away roughly and say, “I am not paying you to talk. Shut your bloody mouth.”

[brashcandy]

childofsummer, on 13 February 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

Are his fighting skills the only thing he has to offer her?  He may have thought so when he made his BWB offer, but most of the things he did for her in KL had nothing to do with his fighting skills.  He, though grumpy and bitter, treated her like a person.  He listened to her as though her opinions mattered, and got angry when he thought she was being hopelessly naive.  He (as they say in preschool) used his words to deflect Joff's wrath as much as he was able.  He gave her honest insight into the various snakes people around.  She feels that he would never let harm come to her (contrast Ser Ilyn).  As a captive, as much as Cersei & co. tried to dehumanize and isolate Sansa, Sandor was vital to allowing her to maintain her sense of self and as much agency and dignity as possible.  He had a huge psychological impact on her, and that's as significant or more significant than any physical protection he might be able to offer her in the future.

Yes, I see the point you're making, but I think he's cognisant that in the outside world, men, society, her family, are all going to challenge their relationship, and whilst he could advise her how to survive in captivity, there's gonna to be a whole other set of dynamics in play in the real world. And remember, at the time the thing she wants most is to be free of the Lannisters, so he's banking on his ability to protect her.

[Woman of War]

Thank you for reposting my post, Brashcandy.
I am seriously ashamed because of the many typing errors but there was no editing at the end of the thread anymore and it was late at night.
The worst:
"There is NO! absolute ideology of morality among us posters."

[Villemo]

brashcandy, on 13 February 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

Recent topics of discussion:

- Sandor vs. Tyrion
- Sandor's sexuality - prowess, confidence, insecurities
- The only thing he may have to offer Sansa - his fighting skills
- The hound's helm and how it will impact on Sandor's growth going forward
- How will GRRM choose to wrap up this character's fate - life/death
- Sandor as father figure, also representing the Stranger in the Seven's religion
- Sandor and the connection to Lady
- Sandor vs. Littlefinger

Post away!

yay, 18. thread!
and these topics give us material for talk to over a dozen next threads. Especially this one

Quote

But this only makes matters worse, because I'll have to like the guy even more, if that's possible. I wouldn't leave him alone even at a party.

none of the Sisters would leave him alone at the party, it is known. But with Tyrion party will be more cheerful

Quote

This is why there are so many threads about Sandor: every interested reader has his own way of approach to that character and those threads serve to tune up your own Sandor scale with the keys and sounds perceived by other posters because there is no clear and unmistakable statement about the character given by the author. Everybody is invited to fabricate his own little Sandor after the few hints given in the text, like analysing a religious text.

This is
There is Sandor's Sisterhood, but in one of first thread someone calls us Sisters Sandoristian or something like, I dont remember. And rule of our Order is analysing text, it is known

Quote

i would not say that Sandor wallows in self pity but he imo wallows in misery. He does not try to see the glass half full, to him every glass is half empty

it all depends of interpretation. I agree, he not wallows in self pity (we saw it once, after BBB. 'I only know, who's lost. Me' 'What have you lost?' 'All'), but is he that much of a pessimist?

[MaryaStone]

I'm going to add links to the last three pages of our last thread, because some interesting issues were brougt up there and we were still discussing them when it was closed:


http://asoiaf.wester...7/page__st__420

http://asoiaf.wester...7/page__st__440

http://asoiaf.wester...7/page__st__460


Woman-of-War:

I don't think we have little information about Sandor and we are making up his character the way we'd like him to be. There's quite a lot of information in the text, enough (IMO) to make us have a very clear idea what the character is like. Of course, there's always some sort of projection and interpretation whenever we read a character, including Tyrion, or any other character. You happen to have a special interest in Tyrion because his tastes, his sense of humour, his wits, etc, make it possible for you to relate to, or empathize with him to an extent you wouldn't with other characters.

For me, it's the same, I can empathize with the Hound, with what I've read about his actions, his worldview and his feelings. I can't empathize with Sansa to the same extent, though, probably because she's too young and I can't feel the way she does any more. I can understand her though, because I used to be a naive little girl as well, different from her, but young and naive, like all sheltered children are, and most of us people who post in these threads have been sheltered children once.

I'm not a naive little girl any more, though, and I dream when I choose to do so, but only then. My point is that ,sometimes, we've made jokes and had a few giggles here in these threads ,but not because we are airheads, but because we chose to do so, and because we don't take ourselves too seriously. Really, I don't want to be like Victarion Greyjoy, laughing is all right, there's nothing wrong with it.

However, this doesn't mean we don't know how to read a text. We haven't made up our own particular , misunderstood trashy novel-like Sandor. No, I like the character the way he's portrayed in the books, flaws and all, and specially because of his flaws, being fully aware he has plenty of them.

Don't get me wrong, because I enjoy reading your posts and they are very interesting, but ... do you really think Sandor isn't an interesting character? Because, I know you don't find Sansa all that interesting, so, if you think Sandor is what Boba Fett was to Star Wars, why do you bother reading so much about him? There are characters in ASOIF that bore me to tears (Tyrion is not one of them) and I've never entered the threads where people talk about them, because I don't care what they may be discussing there.

Really, I think Oberyn Martell (or Bronn, Pott or even Garlan Tyrell) may be more of less like Boba Fett in Star Wars. He's cool and incredibly badass, but how many pages does Martin use to portray this character? He's a device, he's there to appear cool and offer us the most badass combat so far in the series. It was great and I enjoyed it a great deal, but I'd never consider Oberyn an important character in the story. As a character, he only served a purpose. He has loads of fans, though, because he's so cool that men like to identify with him and women find him very sexy (and badass, as well). I could say more or less the same about Bronn, who resembles Boba Fett, the bounty hunter, even more than Oberyn.

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It's really easy to project whatever you want on a guy who doesn't do much but looks pretty bad-ass. It's been said by smarter people than me that Star Wars fans love the Star Wars in their heads but hate the Star Wars on the screen. Boba Fett is a prime example of that.
posted by Etrigan at 8:42 AM on January 7, 2011 [25 favorites]

http://ask.metafilte...Fett-so-popular

http://tvtropes.org/...in/BountyHunter

Sandor is not like Oberyn Martell or Bronn, he's a round character, not just an archetype for us readers to project our fantasies on. He doesn't have any POV chapters but this isn't necessary to portray a character. We don't need to have access to a character's inner dialogue to understand them. On the contrary, I tend to think the opposite. It's much more interesting to portray a character through their actions, their dialogues and interactions with others, and the way others view them.

We can count on all these things to know Sandor, or Stannis, and they are very interesting characters. I prefer to be offered a character's portrayal the way I've just mentioned, to the writer telling me directly how he/she feels and what I have to think about them. I prefer the subtle to the obvious, in most cases. I feel annoyed when an author is over-descriptive about a character's feelings, as I'm in for showing more and explaining less. We're not dumb. Actions (and dialogues too, in literature) speak louder than (loads of explanatory) words (by the author).

Maybe Tyrion's over exposure is making him a bit annoying for some readers and , I hope I'm wrong, GRRM may be taking a dangerous path with this character as regards literary devices, by means of over-exposure, too much stretching people's suspension of disbelief, over-identification with the character and also, explaining him too much. Readers don't usually like to be explained too much, as if they were too dumb to understand and needed to be explained the same things over and over.

Ned's POV chapters, Sansa's and also Tyrion's in the first books were a pleasure to read, because they felt like an open window through which we could see other characters, witness political dynamics,strains, struggles etc. It was great to know what was going on in KL through each character's prism, because they helped us see the picture from different angles. Brilliant!

It wasn't their inner dialogue what made these chapters (they were my favourite, by the way) interesting, it was their view on the other characters and the events they were witnessing and thinking about, what made reading those chapters so interesting. GRRM never made the mistake to characterize Ned through his inner dialogue alone, but through his actions. I could say the same about Sansa. It was the same with Tyrion at first but he's getting far too much screen time (so to speak) in a less than subtle way to keep my interest. I would appreciate some more subtlety on the author's part in Tyrion POV chapters, and some more restraint. But this is just me, of course .

As for Sandor, we get to know what he's like through his speech, his reactions to events, the decisions he takes and his interactions with many other characters. He's given a lot of attention in Sansa's chapters but he's also relevant in Ned's, Arya's and Tyrion's, and mentioned in others (Brienne's, Cersei's and Jaime's). We know what he thinks about honour and other aspects of life because of what he says or does and the impression he leaves on other characters. This is good characterization, IMHO.

This is similar to the way we get to know people in RL, because we don't have direct access to their thoughts and feelings; this is how we know our friends, family and acquaintances in the real world, which doesn't mean they are like strangers for us simply because we don't know everything they do or have ever done, or how they see themselves. I don't even think my opinion about myself is more valid than the ones of other people who know me. In fact, we tend to whitewash our own actions and judge ourselves lightly more often than not (although some people are like Sandor, overly critic towards themselves, which I don't think is good for their psychological well-being and comfort).

If Martin doesn't tell us (through Sandor's own words or other character's POVs) that he tortures and rapes, I have to assume George doesn't want me to infer he did, because he makes it really clear when he wants us to know this kind of things about characters (the Mountain rapes and tortures, Victarion is a woman-killer, King Bob is a whoremonger, Tywin is a hypocritical abusive parent, the twins fuck each other and Catelyn can't forget Jon is the child of Ned's infidelity and accept the boy), if George has bothered to let us know this much about other characters, he'd let us know if Sandor raped and tortured. He doesn't make clear whether he did or didn't do that because he's chosen to portray him in a sympathetic light without being too obvious.

Would you have GRRM make Sandor Clegane or any other character say directly he doesn't rape and torture people? It would be quite a cheap device and definitely not subtle; it would belong in a trashy romance novel.

'Littlebird, I kill women and children and laugh about it. I'm a butcher, but I never torture and rape people, mind you.'

'Ah, little She-Wolf , you have to understand that I killed the butcher's boy because queen Cersei ordered me to kill him. I failed to protect the prince as was my duty, and he was attacked, so I thought I'd better be quiet and obey before the queen got mad at me for letting a lowlife hurt her son. I wasn't there to know it was you who attacked Joff.'

A bit of subltlety and ambiguity is sometimes better than over-exposition in literature.

Martin doesn't say that Ned, Robert or Tywin don't rape or torture, to put some examples of other soldiers. Do we have to infer they did it because it's not stated that they didn't? I don't think so. That remains a mystery for us, and this was the author's decision.

When an author wants us to like a character despite his past crimes, he leaves those crimes in the past, they happen (or happened) off camera. Mycah's death is the only exception in Sandor's case (brilliant move by GRRM), where the author takes the risk to shock the readers and make them hate a character (he does the same with Jaime) to reverse the effect later and thus have a stronger impact on the readers.

GRRM knew what he was doing when he wrote the Hound the way he did, he had every intention to make the readers like this character and think about him a great deal, wondering why we like a fucked-up violent killer so much.

Sorry, but I don't need to wait until the last book (hurry up, George) to have the impression Sandor and Tyrion have set off on a journey taking different directions towards becoming better and worse men, respectively, than they were in the beginning.

I don't think I'm the type of person who enjoys basing characters or other posters, or pontificating about morality (and I'm not saying that you are either ). If I don't like a character or I don't find them interesting, I don't read and post about them, that's all. Why should I bother?

Edited by MaryaStone, 14 February 2012 - 06:52 AM.

[Villemo]

By the way, I really like (I like very much), how he calls Stark Sisters. Littlebird and She-wolf are so true name, match to them, and so lovely
(in my language it does not sound so good, but when I read ASOIAF in english, I realized that he really likes both Sansa and Arya. If he didn't, he wouldn't give them so nice 'names')

(I know, off-topic )

[MaryaStone]

Villemo, on 14 February 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

By the way, I really like (I like very much), how he calls Stark Sisters. Littlebird and She-wolf are so true name, match to them, and so lovely
(in my language it does not sound so good, but when I read ASOIAF in english, I realized that he really likes both Sansa and Arya. If he didn't, he wouldn't give them so nice 'names')

(I know, off-topic )

No, it's very nice. I feel curious, how do they say little bird and she-wolf in you languages? Does it sound as nice as it sounds in English?

In Spanish, Little Bird is Pajarito , which sounds incredibly sweet, specially coming from a big brute like him. I've read the books in English, so I don't know how they have translated she-wolf  into Spanish. We'll have to ask Bgona or another person who's read them in Spanish.

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it all depends of interpretation. I agree, he not wallows in self pity (we saw it once, after BBB.

'I only know, who's lost. Me' 'What have you lost?' 'All'

),

but is he that much of a pessimist?

I think he was stating the truth, matter-of-factly, because he'd lost everything. Literally.
I he hadn't gone away, he'd lost the only thing he had left: his life. Deserting is not taken lightly in Westeros. It is known.

Edited by MaryaStone, 14 February 2012 - 07:52 AM.