Quotes by MaryaStone
I'm not a naive little girl any more, though, and I dream when I choose to do so, but only then. My point is that ,sometimes, we've made jokes and had a few giggles here in these threads ,but not because we are airheads, but because we chose to do so, and because we don't take ourselves too seriously. Really, I don't want to be like Victarion Greyjoy, laughing is all right, there's nothing wrong with it.
However, this doesn't mean we don't know how to read a text. We haven't made up our own particular , misunderstood trashy novel-like Sandor. No, I like the character the way he's portrayed in the books, flaws and all, and specially because of his flaws, being fully aware he has plenty of them.
Don't get me wrong, because I enjoy reading your posts
and they are very interesting, but ... do you really think Sandor isn't an interesting character? Because, I know you don't find Sansa all that interesting, so, if you think Sandor is what Boba Fett
was to Star Wars
, why do you bother reading so much about him? There are characters in ASOIF that bore me to tears (Tyrion is not one of them) and I've never entered the threads where people talk about them, because I don't care what they may be discussing there.
Really, I think Oberyn Martell (or Bronn, Pottor evenGarlan Tyrell]) may be more of less like Boba Fett in Star Wars. He's cool and incredibly badass, but how many pages does Martin use to portray this character? He's a device, he's there to appear cool and offer us the most badass combat so far in the series. It was great and I enjoyed it a great deal, but I'd never consider Oberyn an important character in the story. As a character, he only served a purpose. He has loads of fans, though, because he's so cool that men like to identify with him and women find him very sexy (and badass, as well). I could say more or less the same about Bronn, who resembles Boba Fett, the bounty hunter, even more than Oberyn
No, there I must have made a mistake: I do not think that Sandor is one of the less interesting characters otherwise I indeed would not post here. And I had to follow up a lot of Sandor stuff because I had chosen to stay away from threads where I would have liked to post but my opinion touched the nerve of so many posters - only in some threads - that I did not post there for the sake of my peace of mind.
And you are right, I would not waste my time posting so much about those badass fan characters like Oberyn and Bronn. Oberyn is the sexy beast worth a good wet dream and Bronn is screwball in shallow.
Sandor is not like Oberyn Martell or Bronn, he's a round character, not just an archetype for us readers to project our fantasies on. He doesn't have any POV chapters but this isn't necessary to portray a character.
Maybe Tyrion's over exposure is making him a bit annoying for some readers and , I hope I'm wrong, GRRM may be taking a dangerous path with this character as regards literary devices, by means of over-exposure, too much stretching people's suspension of disbelief, over-identification with the character and also, explaining him too much. Readers don't usually like to be explained too much, as if they were too dumb to understand and needed to be explained the same things over and over.
As for Sandor, we get to know what he's like through his speech, his reactions to events, the decisions he takes and his interactions with many other characters.
There you have touched a nerve, not in me but in the writing technique Martin applies on Tyrion. Yes, it is true, either Martin is trying to make us understand Tyrions motives and desires by all means, make us follow every dark path of Tyrion with empathy and overdoes his efforts by trying to rub it in, thus achieving right the contrary in many readers who are less patient with that character than I am
. Or he is on his his way to totally deconstruct the character Tyrion, to lay him bare, to make him naked as protagonist, even literally, in a voyeuristic manner. Not to be prurient or to introduce cheap sex thrills but to take away all protective layers of the literary character, like he did with Cersei in her walk of shame as well. It's not about submitting the person of Tyrion or Cersei to torture but his own literary invention: Martin is testing how far he can take this as Author who is playing with the emotions of his readers. In short: Martin is making Tyrion's story annoying and unnerving on purpose and not because he happens to overdo it by mistake. This makes me think that he has plans with that character that may stretch our sympathy even more, continuing the mindgame GRRM has started with Tyrion and with the readers.
If Martin doesn't tell us (through Sandor's own words or other character's POVs) that he tortures and rapes, I have to assume George doesn't want me to infer he did, because he makes it really clear when he wants us to know this kind of things about characters (the Mountain rapes and tortures, Victarion is a woman-killer, King Bob is a whoremonger, Tywin is a hypocritical abusive parent, the twins fuck each other and Catelyn can't forget Jon is the child of Ned's infidelity and accept the boy), if George has bothered to let us know this much about other characters, he'd let us know if Sandor raped and tortured.
Martin may have totally different moral challenges in store for Sandor than he has for Tyrion. Tyrion will be finally judged not only by "small" private decisions. Of course as an old school feminist I remember my political socialization and I know that the Private Is Political, so that the way Tyrion treats woman is in no way a minor sidenote of the important historical events to come, morally. And Martin emphasizes here in order to make us painfully perceive the character. I do not think that the autor does withhold those informations about Sandor because the latter has not done the bad deeds but because he feels no need to invest so much characterization into Sandor. Actually so far I stlll believe there is no base for any evaluation here that makes sense.
Tyrion's moral evaluation has to be open because his being back to real power will take story time. Will he finally sacrifice personal happiness and his desire for recognition and revenge for the greater good? What outcome may justify which means, the conflicts of exercising power.
Sandor does not care about fame and power, he is driven by intrinsic conflicts, not by extrinsic gratifications and expectations of others like Tyrion with his Lannister upbringing.
Sandor's conflicts have been: which orders am I willing to follow, until it comes to murder? What is the moral conflict shown in the Sansa relationship? sandor stood by when Sansa was mistreated, he said"enough". yes, I know there is the argument " he could not have done anything anyway", the justification of the passive bystander. Sandor saved Sansa from the angry Kingslanders but this was less risky than saving her from his unpredictably cruel employer and king. Then he was clever and alert when Sansa wanted to push down Joffrey and herself. But all in all Sandor saved his courage up for later, for his travels with Arya, the truly interesting, fascinating, unexpected and deeply funny interaction, so much less cliché, so very real life in its exchange compared to the inversed archetypical Sansa communication. I loved Sandor with Arya, that was screwball cinema as well as drama between two somewhat equals at its best. The courage reserved for Sansa is maybe yet to come.
Sandor going off screen would be a waste like Jaime or other immensely interesting non POVs like Mance Raider. certain characters are non POVs for plot reasons like Varys, Littlefinger, maybe Stannis, they would give too much away before time. sandor cannot give away too much before time, his emotions are left open because he himself doesn't know them yet.
Will Sandor "do the right thing" for Sansa because he perceives it as right or because the right thing happens to be Sansa's side? What if Sansa herself chooses, maybe as willing pupil of Littlefinger, to take the darker road - will Sandor follow her into moral corruption and defend her with his life, no matter against whom or what? Or would Sandor be on the morally right side in the end, and then you may have the conflict that the "right" side is not Sansa's side? What if his little bird grows up, loses her purity and makes erotic decisions that do not include Sandor but maybe a beautiful false knight like Aegon? Knife through throat?
Other possibility: Is there still any erotic desire from Sandor's side ? Hasn't this perhaps died with the Hound, when he finally ended at the Quiet Isle? I wonder. Isn't it part of of him now to have overcome this?
So Sandor is one of the most interesting characters to me, only I am interested in a different way than some other posters here. His moral conflict may seem a very different one than the decisions Tyrion may be confronted with. Although if Tyrion ever finds Tysha or another love interest he is exactly the character who does not make coldblooded evaluations of good and bad but who acts - like maybe Sandor - with absolute irrational loyalty. (could this be called " irrational"?)
I personally am more drawn to " artsy" or "nerdy" characters, so as Mystery Man it would, among the nonPOVs be Mance Raider to fancy for me.
At home I have a guy twice my frame, 1,92 m, grey eyes and dark and grey hair, a little wider in the middle from neglecting his swordfighting exercises but someone people prefer not to meet in dark streets - and he is kind, intellectual, articulate, attractive voice ( rasping only when he's got a cold), full of irony ( he needs it to put up with me) and not aggressive at all. So no need for heroes, got my own.
It's not that I am less interested in Sandor as a conflicted person, I am but a little less interested than in the true mystery non POVs like Rayder, Roose, Varys or Olenna. What do these people want in the end? Sandors secrets are maybe less plot deciding. The difference to those posters who are more "fans" of Sandor: his conflicts and secrets are not mine, I'm curious but cannot identify. But no problem, to each his or her own.
Sorry, but I don't need to wait until the last book (hurry up, George) to have the impression Sandor and Tyrion have set off on a journey taking different directions towards becoming better and worse men, respectively, than they were in the beginning.
No, I still keep my opinion that, while being able to judge the moral quality of actions or things not done, I am not willing to give a final moral evaluation to a character as a whole before the story of his life is written. I will not let myself be tempted to judge a character by single actions or by his ephemerical psychic and moral position in an unfinished story but by the decisions that finally count in the end. And where would I start the judgement? Where does the journey of characters start? At their birth, with the first information we get or when the books begin? We do not even know when to begin with a character assessment, how can we know when to end? At a character's death, that is for sure ( hopefully, but with Martin you never know)
I am not preaching moral relativism but moral caution.
Edited by Woman of War, 14 February 2012 - 04:59 PM.