414 replies to this topic

[MaryaStone]

I've found this post about Sandor and I'm going to paste it here because I think it's really good.
Food for thought.

Quote

The Two Faces of Sandor Clegane

One of the things that really interests me about the A Song of Ice and Fire series is the concept of monsters. The title of my blog is a quote from The Scar by China Mieville, another fantasy author who is obsessed with monsters. But where Mieville’s interest lies in the inhuman, the fantastical, George R R Martin is primarily interested in human monsters. I’d like to write more on this subject, since I’m currently still working my way through A Dance with Dragons, and the word “monster” gets mentioned a lot in that book in particular.

The series contains some merciless analysis of the concept of knighthood. As Jojen Reed says, “Sometimes the knights are the monsters.” I want to talk about one character in particular who embodies the conflict between this monster/knight dichotomy.
Sandor “the Hound” Clegane is a man who rejects the concept of knighthood because of the hypocrisy he sees around him. His brother, Gregor, is a knight, and one of the most monstrous characters in the series. Sandor himself was a victim of his brother as a child. This experience, I think, shaped him more than anything else in his life. Sandor decided that since everyone around him was a monster, then he might as well be one, too, only he would do so openly, and not hide behind the concept of knighthood, as he saw his brother do.

Sandor believes that there are no true knights. He believes that deep down, everyone else is as monstrous as Gregor, and that those who aren’t are only victims. He describes Tyrion, a character whom he shares some similarities with, as a monster (and I want to write more about Tyrion and the word monster) not just because Tyrion is considered freakish in appearance but because this is an extension of his belief that all men are monsters deep down. While Tyrion was saddled with the label of monster and “Imp” from birth, Sandor Clegane chose his own moniker. People call him “the Hound” becuase he’s decided that a hound is what he will be, a hired dog who kills indiscriminately at his master’s call, a mocking parody of knighthood.

But then there’s Sansa Stark, who herself is a deconstruction of the princess role in fantasy and medieval society. Something strange happens to Sandor when he encounters Sansa. Sansa, with her innocence and her belief in the concept of a true knight, appeals to Sandor’s two conflicting sides, the cynical “Hound”, and the person who, despite himself, wants to be the knight that she needs. We see these sides in opposition with each other in Sandor’s interactions with Sansa.

Sandor is inexplicably attracted to Sansa, and what she represents. He wants to protect her. Love her, even. To save her from the monsters who would hurt her. But the side of Sandor that is The Hound feels something very different. He’s angered by Sansa’s innocence and naivete. He absolutely hates that she’s able to believe in goodness, something that was crushed long ago in himself. This side of him is also attracted to Sansa, but in a way that is destructive, that wants to possess her, to hurt her, to ravage her. To crush the little bird in his jaws.
[/indent]
Will these two sides of Sandor Clegane ever be reconciled? There’s evidence to suggest that Sandor may be the grave digger on the Quiet Isle. Perhaps The Hound truly is dead, and perhaps Sandor will emerge a True Knight, or at least one who is repentant for his crimes. But I think it just as likely that Martin will leave this story unresolved. Martin subverts your expectations, and then he subverts them again. In my opinion, the story of Sansa and Sandor is not a love story, but a meditation on the conflict within a tortured soul.

http://nobodysuspect...-sandor-clegane

Edited by MaryaStone, 14 February 2012 - 08:11 AM.

[brashcandy]

@Marya - you're going to have to stop spoiling us with these long, exceptional posts. I'll never let you off the hook with a short one at this rate

Edited by brashcandy, 14 February 2012 - 08:13 AM.

[MaryaStone]

brashcandy, on 14 February 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

@Marya - you're going to have to stop spoiling us with these long, exceptional posts. I'll never let you off the hook with a short one at this rate

I have to stop, I know, but it's your fault guys,cause you keep motivating me with your posts, which are always so interesting and never stop bringing up new things to consider.

Every day I say to myself I have to stop for a while, because I have a lot to do, both at home and at work.

Anyway, when one of us takes a break, there's always someone else, many others, in fact, who keep the flame alive. We are spoiling each other badly.

Edited by MaryaStone, 14 February 2012 - 08:24 AM.

[brashcandy]

Quote

Will these two sides of Sandor Clegane ever be reconciled? There’s evidence to suggest that Sandor may be the grave digger on the Quiet Isle. Perhaps The Hound truly is dead, and perhaps Sandor will emerge a True Knight, or at least one who is repentant for his crimes. But I think it just as likely that Martin will leave this story unresolved. Martin subverts your expectations, and then he subverts them again. In my opinion, the story of Sansa and Sandor is not a love story, but a meditation on the conflict within a tortured soul.

Thanks for posting this Marya, it certainly is interesting. I generally agree with what the writer has noted here, although I've given my thoughts on the concept of Sandor's "two" sides already. Where I differ with the poster is in the final assessment where s/he posits that it's not a love story, "but a meditation on the conflict within a tortured soul." My take on it is that it's both. It is an exploration of the impact of love on a tortured soul; love which throws the tortured soul into conflict with itself, a conflict that may not have come about if that love hadn't been present. And this is why GRRM must absolutely bring this to some kind of conclusion, and not simply subvert for subversion's sake. He's brought these two people together, and thrown them both into a whirlwind by their interactions and experiences. ASOIAF is filled with tortured souls - what we need now is to see how the tortured soul triumphs, overcomes, and challenges what society (and themselves) have often told them they would never have or could never be.

Edited by brashcandy, 14 February 2012 - 08:37 AM.

[bgona]

MaryaStone, on 14 February 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

No, it's very nice. I feel curious, how do they say little bird and she-wolf in you languages? Does it sound as nice as it sounds in English?

In Spanish, Little Bird is Pajarito , which sounds incredibly sweet, specially coming from a big brute like him. I've read the books in English, so I don't know how they have translated she-wolf  into Spanish. We'll have to ask Bgona or another person who's read them in Spanish.



I think he was stating the truth, matter-of-factly, because he'd lost everything. Literally.
I he hadn't gone away, he'd lost the only thing he had left: his life. Deserting is not taken lightly in Westeros. It is known.

At the moment Little Bird is Pajarito but the She-Wolf I have readed as Pequeña Loba, Niña Loba, Lobita and Loba. At the begining, he called Arya with all the Little Wolf, Girl Wolf, but he ended calling her Loba (Wolf female).

[Villemo]

MaryaStone, on 14 February 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

No, it's very nice. I feel curious, how do they say little bird and she-wolf in you languages? Does it sound as nice as it sounds in English?

"little bird' they translated as 'ptaszyna'. hmmmm... in english, as my dictionary said, it is like 'a birdie'.
I find "birdie" as condescending and a little irreverent. "Little bird" is sweet, it is a caressing word

Edited by Villemo, 14 February 2012 - 02:03 PM.

[Elba the Intoner]

Holy cow!!  This thread has been flying along!  Marya where did you find that post above about the two sides of the Hound?  That was brilliant but I agree with Brash that I hope there is some resolution to it.

Well, since there's been much discussion recently comparing and contrasting Sandor and Tyrion, they were great posts by the way, I guess I'll just throw out here my thoughts on the Hound and Littlefinger.  (all three men are important to Sansa's story so it's fitting to discuss here).

They are for the most part set up as polar opposites in their physicality and mannerisms.  The Hound is big, Littlefinger small.  The Hound speaks harshly but honestly, Littlefinger is a silver tongued liar.  Even their breath is described as opposites, the Hound's smells like sour wine and Littlefinger's like mint. Also, the things that make them thrive are opposed.  Littlefinger lives for planning and scheming and even admits that he thrives on chaos, but he would never do well in a fight.  Remember how he ran away when Jaime and his men accosted Ned and Jory after leaving the brothel?  The Hound on the other hand lives for the fight, and I'll even go so far as to say, he lives for a fair fight with others who are on his level as a fighter.  He is not a planner at all.

The one thing that is seemingly the same for both is that they both were very idealistic and believed in knights and chivalry (remember that Gregor's toy that Sandor wanted to play with was a wooden "Knight", and Petyr challenging Brandon Stark to a duel for Catelyn's hand is seems like something you would hear a gallant knight doing in a song) when they were children and that ideal was brutally beaten out of them. But even here, I can't help feeling like it is Petyr himself who brings on his harsh lesson and creates the defining moment that will rule the rest of his life, whereas Sandor was completely innocent  in the event that shaped his. Petyr could not let go of his obsession with Catelyn even though it was obvious that she didn't love him in that way, and he was at an age where he had to have known that there was no way he could beat Brandon Stark in a duel.  Sure, it's hard when we find ourselves liking someone who doesn't like us back in that way or who just wants to be friends.  We've all had that experience and it's not pleasant but you have to get over it.  When I read about the duel, where Catelyn wouldn't even give him her favor, and Brandon was so obviously winning but he wouldn't give up, I couldn't help thinking "Sheesh, Petyr let it go!  You are only making it worse for yourself!"

Sandor on the other hand, was only 6 years old and there was nothing he could have done about what happened to him, other than not playing with Gregor's toy in the first place.  But of course playing with someone else's toy is a perfectly natural thing for a 6 year old to do.  Even if it was already becoming known what kind of monster Gregor was turning into by then, I don't think a 6 year old by would really understand or predict what Gregor would do to him for the horrible crime of playing with a toy that he didn't even want.

Anyway, that's what stuck out for me.  That even though it seems that both Sandor and Petyr were the same in having their idealistic youth taken from them, their individual actions that caused these events were different.

[R & R]

MaryaStone, on 14 February 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

I feel curious, how do they say little bird and she-wolf in you languages? Does it sound as nice as it sounds in English?

Because it is known y'all are tripping over yourselves to get at the Hungarian/Magyar translations.

little bird:  kis madár.  To my ear, this has an exactly equivalent, um, sweetness quotient, or impact in both languages.
she-wolf:  ő farkas.  (Cheated on this one, might not be correct).  Um is nice ever appropriate in context with wolf?

And because I can not process the anglicized pronounciation, yet again.  Sandor:  Sándor  

[R & R]

Nope, wasn't worth posting twice.

Edited by R & R, 14 February 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[brashcandy]

Great post, Elba. Sandor has a habit of playing with toys that don't belong to him, it seems I think it was Lemoncake who once wrote an excellent post on this very same thing: Sandor's powerful attraction to the things that he often makes a mockery of: knights, songs, chivalry, etc.

Edited by brashcandy, 14 February 2012 - 10:40 AM.

[Elba the Intoner]

brashcandy, on 14 February 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

Great post, Elba. Sandor has a habit of playing with toys that don't belong to him, it seems I think it was Lemoncake who once wrote an excellent post on this very same thing: Sandor's powerful attraction to the things that he often makes a mockery of: knights, songs, chivalry, etc.

That's because he secretly does want them.

[brashcandy]

Elba the Intoner, on 14 February 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

That's because he secretly does want them.

Yup. It's amazing how early childhood experiences can have such a formative impact on a person's development, especially when the incident has left physical scars that are constant reminders of the horror of that moment. I think everytime Sandor saw his face he remembered exactly what Gregor did to him, and everytime he saw someone not looking at his face, it brought back that anger, bitterness and shame. I think shame is at the bottom of the dark hole Sandor lives in. Shame that he was once innocent and naive enough to want to play with a toy knight even though he knew he was risking his brother's wrath; shame that when people see him they only see the burns, and nothing else, and shame that he had taken to revelling in being an instrument of death. Sansa, I think, offered him a way out of this shame and misery; he felt proud of having saved her from the mob, and probably saw rescuing her as the ultimate escape from his own problems, too.

Edited by brashcandy, 14 February 2012 - 11:57 AM.

[Buckwheat]

Villemo, on 14 February 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

"little bird' they translated as 'ptaszyna'. hmmmm... in english my dictionary said, it is 'birdie'.
I find "birdie" as condescending and a little irreverent. "Little bird" is sweet, it is a caressing word

Why would "birdie" sound condescending? In my translation, it is "ptičica", and I think that is nice. It is, as you say, a sweet, caressing word. But it may be just that diminuatives in my language sound that much better than in English ... and that I love diminuatives.

R & R, on 14 February 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

Because it is known y'all are tripping over yourselves to get at the Hungarian/Magyar translations.

little bird:  kis madár.  To my ear, this has an exactly equivalent, um, sweetness quotient, or impact in both languages.
she-wolf:  ő farkas.  (Cheated on this one, might not be correct).  Um is nice ever appropriate in context with wolf?

And because I can not process the anglicized pronounciation, yet again.  Sandor:  Sándor  

I cannot talk for the others, but I like every lingustic post! And why would "nice" be inappropriate in contwxt with "wolf"? This are Sansa and Arya we are talking about, right?

Something must be wrong with me for posting in this thread. I was so against anything that has to do with Sandor before, but you all are doing a good work converting me into Sandorism ... so, hi *shy wave*

[brashcandy]

Hello Buckwheat *waving back*
Don't feel bad about becoming interested in Sandor - we all have really fun and enlightening conversations, so stick around!

As for the word "birdie" it makes me think of a little old woman, helpless and frail "Little bird" sounds more affectionate, and is a bit "cutesy".

[Buckwheat]

brashcandy, on 14 February 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

As for the word "birdie" it makes me think of a little old woman, helpless and frail "Little bird" sounds more affectionate, and is a bit "cutesy".

Ok, thank you for the clarification ... English is not my first language, so I sometimes miss subtle connotations and such. I am sticking to my belief that "ptičica" is as cute as need be, "volkuljica" (she-wolf <- I find this word strange, it sounds to me like something one would say because one does not know a better word) maybe even a little too sweet for Arya .

And I have been lurking at these threads for some time now, just for fun, only never decided to post ...

[Woman of War]

Quotes by MaryaStone

Quote

I'm not a naive little girl any more, though, and I dream when I choose to do so, but only then. My point is that ,sometimes, we've made jokes and had a few giggles here in these threads ,but not because we are airheads, but because we chose to do so, and because we don't take ourselves too seriously. Really, I don't want to be like Victarion Greyjoy, laughing is all right, there's nothing wrong with it.
However, this doesn't mean we don't know how to read a text. We haven't made up our own particular , misunderstood trashy novel-like Sandor. No, I like the character the way he's portrayed in the books, flaws and all, and specially because of his flaws, being fully aware he has plenty of them.

Don't get me wrong, because I enjoy reading your posts and they are very interesting, but ... do you really think Sandor isn't an interesting character? Because, I know you don't find Sansa all that interesting, so, if you think Sandor is what Boba Fett was to Star Wars, why do you bother reading so much about him? There are characters in ASOIF that bore me to tears (Tyrion is not one of them) and I've never entered the threads where people talk about them, because I don't care what they may be discussing there.

Really, I think Oberyn Martell (or Bronn, Pottor evenGarlan Tyrell]) may be more of less like Boba Fett in Star Wars. He's cool and incredibly badass, but how many pages does Martin use to portray this character? He's a device, he's there to appear cool and offer us the most badass combat so far in the series. It was great and I enjoyed it a great deal, but I'd never consider Oberyn an important character in the story. As a character, he only served a purpose. He has loads of fans, though, because he's so cool that men like to identify with him and women find him very sexy (and badass, as well). I could say more or less the same about Bronn, who resembles Boba Fett, the bounty hunter, even more than Oberyn

No, there I must have made a mistake: I do not think that Sandor is one of the less interesting characters otherwise I indeed would not post here. And I had to follow up a lot of Sandor stuff because I had chosen to stay away from threads where I would have liked to post but my opinion touched the nerve of so many posters - only in some threads - that I did not post there for the sake of my peace of mind.
And you are right, I would not waste my time posting so much about those badass fan characters like Oberyn and Bronn. Oberyn is the sexy beast worth a good wet dream and Bronn is screwball in shallow.

Quote

Sandor is not like Oberyn Martell or Bronn, he's a round character, not just an archetype for us readers to project our fantasies on. He doesn't have any POV chapters but this isn't necessary to portray a character.
......

Maybe Tyrion's over exposure is making him a bit annoying for some readers and , I hope I'm wrong, GRRM may be taking a dangerous path with this character as regards literary devices, by means of over-exposure, too much stretching people's suspension of disbelief, over-identification with the character and also, explaining him too much. Readers don't usually like to be explained too much, as if they were too dumb to understand and needed to be explained the same things over and over.

As for Sandor, we get to know what he's like through his speech, his reactions to events, the decisions he takes and his interactions with many other characters.

There you have touched a nerve, not in me but in the writing technique Martin applies on Tyrion. Yes, it is true, either Martin is trying to make us understand Tyrions motives and desires by all means, make us follow every dark path of Tyrion with  empathy  and overdoes his efforts by trying to rub it in, thus achieving right the contrary in many readers who are less patient with that character than I am . Or he is on his his way to totally deconstruct the character Tyrion, to lay him bare, to make him naked as protagonist, even literally, in a voyeuristic manner. Not to be  prurient or to introduce cheap sex thrills but to take away all protective layers of the literary character, like he did with Cersei in her walk of shame as well. It's not about submitting the person of Tyrion or Cersei to torture but his own literary invention: Martin is testing how far he can take this as Author who is playing with the emotions of his readers. In short: Martin is making Tyrion's story annoying and unnerving on purpose and not because he happens to overdo it by mistake. This makes me think that he has plans with that character that may stretch our sympathy even more, continuing the mindgame GRRM has started with Tyrion and with the readers.

Quote

If Martin doesn't tell us (through Sandor's own words or other character's POVs) that he tortures and rapes, I have to assume George doesn't want me to infer he did, because he makes it really clear when he wants us to know this kind of things about characters (the Mountain rapes and tortures, Victarion is a woman-killer, King Bob is a whoremonger, Tywin is a hypocritical abusive parent, the twins fuck each other and Catelyn can't forget Jon is the child of Ned's infidelity and accept the boy), if George has bothered to let us know this much about other characters, he'd let us know if Sandor raped and tortured.

Martin may have totally different moral challenges in store for Sandor than he has for Tyrion. Tyrion will be finally judged not only by "small" private decisions. Of course as an old school feminist I remember my political socialization and I know that the Private Is Political, so that the way Tyrion treats woman is in no way a minor sidenote of the important historical events to come, morally. And Martin emphasizes here in order to make us painfully perceive the character. I do not think that the autor does withhold those informations about Sandor because the latter has not done the bad deeds but because he feels no need to invest so much characterization into Sandor. Actually so far I stlll believe there is no base for any evaluation here that makes sense.
Tyrion's moral evaluation has to be open because his being back to real power will take story time. Will he finally sacrifice personal happiness and his desire for recognition and revenge for the greater good? What outcome  may justify which means, the conflicts of exercising power.
Sandor does not care about fame and power, he is driven by intrinsic conflicts, not by extrinsic gratifications and expectations of others like Tyrion with his Lannister upbringing.
Sandor's conflicts have been: which orders am I willing to follow, until it comes to murder? What is the moral conflict shown in the Sansa relationship? sandor stood by when Sansa was mistreated, he said"enough". yes, I know there is the argument " he could not have done anything anyway", the justification of the passive bystander. Sandor saved Sansa from the angry Kingslanders but this was less risky than saving her from his unpredictably cruel employer and king. Then he was clever and alert when Sansa wanted to push down Joffrey and herself. But all in all Sandor saved his courage up for later, for his travels with Arya, the truly interesting, fascinating, unexpected and deeply funny interaction, so much less cliché, so very real life in its exchange compared to the inversed archetypical Sansa communication. I loved Sandor with Arya, that was screwball cinema as well as drama between two somewhat equals at its best. The courage reserved for Sansa is maybe yet to come.
Sandor going off screen would be a waste like Jaime or other immensely interesting non POVs like Mance Raider. certain characters are non POVs for plot reasons like Varys, Littlefinger, maybe Stannis, they would give too much away before time. sandor cannot give away too much before time, his emotions are left open because he himself doesn't know them yet.
Will Sandor "do the right thing" for Sansa because he perceives it as right or because the right thing happens to be Sansa's side? What if Sansa herself chooses, maybe as willing pupil of Littlefinger, to take the darker road - will Sandor follow her into moral corruption and defend her with his life, no matter against whom or what? Or would Sandor be on the morally right side in the end, and then you may have the conflict that the "right" side is not Sansa's side? What if his little bird grows up, loses her purity and makes erotic decisions that do not include Sandor but maybe a beautiful false knight like Aegon? Knife through throat?
Other possibility: Is there still any erotic desire from Sandor's side ? Hasn't this perhaps died with the Hound, when he finally ended at the Quiet Isle? I wonder. Isn't it part of of him now to have overcome this?
So Sandor  is one of the most interesting characters to me, only I am interested in a different way than some other posters here. His moral conflict may seem a very different one than the decisions Tyrion may be confronted with. Although if Tyrion ever finds Tysha or another love interest he is exactly the character who does not make coldblooded evaluations of good and bad but who acts - like maybe Sandor - with absolute irrational loyalty. (could this be called " irrational"?)

I personally am more drawn to " artsy" or "nerdy" characters, so as Mystery Man it would, among the nonPOVs be Mance Raider to fancy for me.
At home I have a guy twice my frame, 1,92 m, grey eyes and dark and grey hair, a little wider in the middle from neglecting his swordfighting exercises but someone people prefer not to meet in dark streets - and he is kind, intellectual, articulate, attractive voice ( rasping only when he's got a cold), full of irony ( he needs it to put up with me) and not aggressive at all. So no need for heroes, got my own.
It's not that I am less interested in Sandor as a conflicted person, I am but a little less interested than in the true mystery non POVs like Rayder, Roose, Varys or Olenna. What do these people want in the end? Sandors secrets are maybe less plot deciding. The difference to those posters who are more "fans" of Sandor: his conflicts and secrets are not mine, I'm curious but cannot identify. But no problem, to each his or her own.

Quote

Sorry, but I don't need to wait until the last book (hurry up, George) to have the impression Sandor and Tyrion have set off on a journey taking different directions towards becoming better and worse men, respectively, than they were in the beginning.

No, I still keep my opinion that, while being able to judge the moral quality of actions or things not done, I am not willing to give a final moral evaluation to a character as a whole before the story of his life is written. I will not let myself be tempted to judge a character by single actions or by his ephemerical psychic and moral position in an unfinished story but by the decisions that finally count in the end. And where would I start the judgement? Where does the journey of characters start? At their birth, with the first information we get or when the books begin? We do not even know when to begin with a character assessment, how can we know when to end? At a character's death, that is for sure ( hopefully, but with Martin you never know)
I am not preaching moral relativism but moral caution.

Edited by Woman of War, 14 February 2012 - 04:59 PM.

[Villemo]

MaryaStone, on 14 February 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

I've found this post about Sandor and I'm going to paste it here because I think it's really good.

it's interesting, thanks for this post

Quote

But then there’s Sansa Stark, who herself is a deconstruction of the princess role in fantasy and medieval society. Something strange happens to Sandor when he encounters Sansa. Sansa, with her innocence and her belief in the concept of a true knight, appeals to Sandor’s two conflicting sides, the cynical “Hound”, and the person who, despite himself, wants to be the knight that she needs.

Sansa and "deconstruction of the princess role in fantasy". That's it.

About Sandor there are some literary references, from 'The Phantom of the Opera' to 'Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde' (Sandor as dr Jekyll, quite nice and good warrior. The Hound, mad dog, as mr  Hyde. Isn't he?)

Elba the Intoner, on 14 February 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

Well, since there's been much discussion recently comparing and contrasting Sandor and Tyrion, they were great posts by the way, I guess I'll just throw out here my thoughts on the Hound and Littlefinger.  (all three men are important to Sansa's story so it's fitting to discuss here).

They are similar, all three, it's true, but IMO there's not enough similarities between The Hound and Littlefinger (except this, that Littlefinger may be owner of brothels which visit the Hound).
Both Tyrion and LF are epicurean.
Neither Tyrion, nor Sandor are able to knock someone a knife in the back. But Littlefinger can do it.
Assassination, kill someone with poison- this fits to Littlefinger, or maybe to Tyrion too, but I cant imagine Sandor as a poisoner.
etc. etc.

Buckwheat, on 14 February 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

Why would "birdie" sound condescending? In my translation, it is "ptičica", and I think that is nice. It is, as you say, a sweet, caressing word. But it may be just that diminuatives in my language sound that much better than in English ... and that I love diminuatives.

It's only my impression
(and I have no idea, how to translate little bird in my language...)

Quote

I cannot talk for the others, but I like every lingustic post!

Quote

Something must be wrong with me for posting in this thread. I was so against anything that has to do with Sandor before, but you all are doing a good work converting me into Sandorism

hell yeah!

[Fragile Bird]

I've just been sitting back enjoying this mighty fine writing!

Imagine, all this from those little teaspoons!  

[bgona]

Woman of War, on 14 February 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Quotes by MaryaStone




No, there I must have made a mistake: I do not think that Sandor is one of the less interesting characters otherwise I indeed would not post here. And I had to follow up a lot of Sandor stuff because I had chosen to stay away from threads where I would have liked to post but my opinion touched the nerve of so many posters - only in some threads - that I did not post there for the sake of my peace of mind.
And you are right, I would not waste my time posting so much about those badass fan characters like Oberyn and Bronn. Oberyn is the sexy beast worth a good wet dream and Bronn is screwball in shallow.




There you have touched a nerve, not in me but in the writing technique Martin applies on Tyrion. Yes, it is true, either Martin is trying to make us understand Tyrions motives and desires by all means, make us follow every dark path of Tyrion with  empathy  and overdoes his efforts by trying to rub it in, thus achieving right the contrary in many readers who are less patient with that character than I am . Or he is on his his way to totally deconstruct the character Tyrion, to lay him bare, to make him naked as protagonist, even literally, in a voyeuristic manner. Not to be  prurient or to introduce cheap sex thrills but to take away all protective layers of the literary character, like he did with Cersei in her walk of shame as well. It's not about submitting the person of Tyrion or Cersei to torture but his own literary invention: Martin is testing how far he can take this as Author who is playing with the emotions of his readers. In short: Martin is making Tyrion's story annoying and unnerving on purpose and not because he happens to overdo it by mistake. This makes me think that he has plans with that character that may stretch our sympathy even more, continuing the mindgame GRRM has started with Tyrion and with the readers.




Martin may have totally different moral challenges in store for Sandor than he has for Tyrion. Tyrion will be finally judged not only by "small" private decisions. Of course as an old school feminist I remember my political socialization and I know that the Private Is Political, so that the way Tyrion treats woman is in no way a minor sidenote of the important historical events to come, morally. And Martin emphasizes here in order to make us painfully perceive the character. I do not think that the autor does withhold those informations about Sandor because the latter has not done the bad deeds but because he feels no need to invest so much characterization into Sandor. Actually so far I stlll believe there is no base for any evaluation here that makes sense.
Tyrion's moral evaluation has to be open because his being back to real power will take story time. Will he finally sacrifice personal happiness and his desire for recognition and revenge for the greater good? What outcome  may justify which means, the conflicts of exercising power.
Sandor does not care about fame and power, he is driven by intrinsic conflicts, not by extrinsic gratifications and expectations of others like Tyrion with his Lannister upbringing.
Sandor's conflicts have been: which orders am I willing to follow, until it comes to murder? What is the moral conflict shown in the Sansa relationship? sandor stood by when Sansa was mistreated, he said"enough". yes, I know there is the argument " he could not have done anything anyway", the justification of the passive bystander. Sandor saved Sansa from the angry Kingslanders but this was less risky than saving her from his unpredictably cruel employer and king. Then he was clever and alert when Sansa wanted to push down Joffrey and herself. But all in all Sandor saved his courage up for later, for his travels with Arya, the truly interesting, fascinating, unexpected and deeply funny interaction, so much less cliché, so very real life in its exchange compared to the inversed archetypical Sansa communication. I loved Sandor with Arya, that was screwball cinema as well as drama between two somewhat equals at its best. The courage reserved for Sansa is maybe yet to come.
Sandor going off screen would be a waste like Jaime or other immensely interesting non POVs like Mance Raider. certain characters are non POVs for plot reasons like Varys, Littlefinger, maybe Stannis, they would give too much away before time. sandor cannot give away too much before time, his emotions are left open because he himself doesn't know them yet.
Will Sandor "do the right thing" for Sansa because he perceives it as right or because the right thing happens to be Sansa's side? What if Sansa herself chooses, maybe as willing pupil of Littlefinger, to take the darker road - will Sandor follow her into moral corruption and defend her with his life, no matter against whom or what? Or would Sandor be on the morally right side in the end, and then you may have the conflict that the "right" side is not Sansa's side? What if his little bird grows up, loses her purity and makes erotic decisions that do not include Sandor but maybe a beautiful false knight like Aegon? Knife through throat?
Other possibility: Is there still any erotic desire from Sandor's side ? Hasn't this perhaps died with the Hound, when he finally ended at the Quiet Isle? I wonder. Isn't it part of of him now to have overcome this?
So Sandor  is one of the most interesting characters to me, only I am interested in a different way than some other posters here. His moral conflict may seem a very different one than the decisions Tyrion may be confronted with. Although if Tyrion ever finds Tysha or another love interest he is exactly the character who does not make coldblooded evaluations of good and bad but who acts - like maybe Sandor - with absolute irrational loyalty. (could this be called " irrational"?)

I personally am more drawn to " artsy" or "nerdy" characters, so as Mystery Man it would, among the nonPOVs be Mance Raider to fancy for me.
At home I have a guy twice my frame, 1,92 m, grey eyes and dark and grey hair, a little wider in the middle from neglecting his swordfighting exercises but someone people prefer not to meet in dark streets - and he is kind, intellectual, articulate, attractive voice ( rasping only when he's got a cold), full of irony ( he needs it to put up with me) and not aggressive at all. So no need for heroes, got my own.
It's not that I am less interested in Sandor as a conflicted person, I am but a little less interested than in the true mystery POVs like Rayder, Roose, Varys or Olenna. What do these people want in the end? Sandors secrets are maybe less plot deciding. The difference to those posters who are more "fans" of Sandor: his conflicts and secrets are not mine, I'm curious but cannot identify. But no problem, to each his or her own.



No, I still keep my opinion that, while being able to judge the moral quality of actions or things not done, I am not willing to give a final moral evaluation to a character as a whole before the story of his life is written. I will not let myself be tempted to judge a character by single actions or by his ephemerical psychic and moral position in an unfinished story but by the decisions that finally count in the end. And where would I start the judgement? Where does the journey of characters start? At their birth, with the first information we get or when the books begin? We do not even know when to begin with a character assessment, how can we know when to end? At a character's death, that is for sure ( hopefully, but with Martin you never know)
I am not preaching moral relativism but moral caution.

Maybe I´m the only one that doesn´t found sexy Oberyn. And in opposite, I laugh a lot with some Bronn´s sentences.

I am of the ones that I don´t like how it is changing Tyrion´s character. Going to much in the dark side. I miss more of his irony (I haven´t finish yet ADWD, my ebook is broke, and I hate reading in the computer or the phone). I know that right now all the main characters are in a dark and secret path. Dark cause all have to learn something that it is changing their character, and secret cause none of the others know nothing about them (all Starks, Tyrion, Sandor, Jaime, even in some way Daenerys).

I like Sandor due to his inner conflicts, his uglyness and something that it is showed that it is good in his inside. Even not being one of the real main characters. Many times I always get in one character that only stay in some pages of a book or a movie, and this has happen with Sandor here. Not cause I´m looking for a heroe that I haven´t in RL. No, it is something that have touched me, and for some reason it makes me understand him better than others characters.

I don´t know how the books are going to end, but I believe that we can say if we agree with the decisions that each character are taking or not (even if at the end it tourned the opposite that we thought in a beginning). Cause many times it doesn´t change that at the end somebody redempt her/him to know if she/he had act right or wrong. And, of course, in a saga like this one it is better to analyzed the books until it came the next one (IMO) before gets desesperated waiting it.

[bgona]

Buckwheat, on 14 February 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

Ok, thank you for the clarification ... English is not my first language, so I sometimes miss subtle connotations and such. I am sticking to my belief that "ptičica" is as cute as need be, "volkuljica" (she-wolf <- I find this word strange, it sounds to me like something one would say because one does not know a better word) maybe even a little too sweet for Arya .

And I have been lurking at these threads for some time now, just for fun, only never decided to post ...

Well Arya and Sandor are really similar. Both represents to the Stranger.

In Spanish sometimes I founded sweet, but always with power when the diminutive it is taken away.


Something that it makes me enjoy more this readings it´s just this: so many people of different cultures and languages enjoying and discussing them!!! It is remarkable!