414 replies to this topic

[clover]

Actually, very important. Because there was a time early on in the series that I wondered about his limitations in facing fire. There are some people who freeze and won't even go near anything that has hurt or traumatized them. Props to our Dog! He can do it, and that is good to know for the future. And he won't go in kicking and screaming either, er, until it's over.

[childofsummer]

Christina Ceriddwynn, on 19 February 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

Well we also have to remember it was Arya's POV and she wasn't overly fond of him.  So we are reading HER interpretation of it...

not saying it didn't happen, just with her opinions cast over the events.  She had him wrapped up in this nice pretty picture in her head and so seeing this huge, horrid monster acting human probably threw her.

For all we know, he might just said "Hey, someone willing to help me out here?" and her interpretation (while still trying to vilify him in her mind) came out more of what we read.

Thanks for this reminder.  Sometimes it's hard to remember with a POV narrative that I have to consider the narrator's perspective!  Arya isn't much of a crier herself, I suspect, and it probably threw her to see a big strong warrior breaking down.  Particularly since Ned wouldn't have shown much, if any, weakness to his kids at Winterfell, I'm sure she has preconceived notions about what men are "supposed" to do when injured.

[Elba the Intoner]

Villemo, on 19 February 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

I dont know, if I good understood , but Theon feel guilty. He remember what he did, he remember miller's son and his wife, and he is repentant too, not only in ADWD.

Yes, thank you very much.  This thread moves so fast!  I haven't even gotten to the next page yet but I wanted to reply to this too about the crying.  Theon does regret it and he cries at the Weirwood tree in ADWD, when he thinks he sees Bran in the tree.  That was a very haunting scene.  Maybe this has already been mentioned on this thread and I am posting too late on this so if so I apologize, but I did want to mention that I noted this about Theon.

[Turkey Jack]

clover, on 19 February 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

Actually, very important. Because there was a time early on in the series that I wondered about his limitations in facing fire. There are some people who freeze and won't even go near anything that has hurt or traumatized them. Props to our Dog! He can do it, and that is good to know for the future. And he won't go in kicking and screaming either, er, until it's over.

I think he will wield fire the next time we see him fight, a la Lord Beric and burn his brother with a flaming sword history coming full circle

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Turkey Jack, on 19 February 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

I think he will wield fire the next time we see him fight, a la Lord Beric and burn his brother with a flaming sword history coming full circle

ooooooooooooooh.....me likes!!!!!

[childofsummer]

Turkey Jack, on 19 February 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

I think he will wield fire the next time we see him fight, a la Lord Beric and burn his brother with a flaming sword history coming full circle

Nah.     Sandor treats his weapons better than that.  Remember how he grumbled while furiously scrubbing at the specks of rust on that old sword?  He'd have apoplexy if anyone tried putting wildfire on his good steel weapons.  "You son of an Other, get your bloody hands off my sword or I'll gut you!  Don't you know what that s*** does to steel?  Do you think I want it breaking the first time I hit someone?"

[clover]

In general, there were a few things in the back of my mind regarding the Hound getting out of the Qi.

I always thought of the tavern scene with a chill. So important that not only did the men tell Sandor that Sansa was married, but that she escaped. And how it would have really sucked if they managed not to include that very vital piece of info to him, before he and Arya cracked some skulls.

So important for his motivation later that I think he is going to think of how he left her again and regret it for the millionth time, and worry that his Bird is loose and might be unprotected and vulnerable, that he acts. He will always try to save her as the past shows us. So I can't see him taking this lying down and just staying on the QI if he lives.

Since Gregor is not completely out of the picture and Oberyn already had his shot, its Sandor's turn. Nobody else's.

Like we all commented before about how the Hound was able to face the fire...his story has always been about fire, his scars, and what his brother did to him, so he is going to have to face the fire again, and luckily he may flip out afterwards, but he can do it before he does.

And my buddy R'hillor. Not a fan because Melisandre is a bad spokesperson for him and makes him annoying,  but I also get that eerie feeling to pay attention when Beric claims that R'hillor is not done with Sandor and that is why he won, which was brought up on the thread before. I like to think that it was all the Hound's talent on his own, but I will suspend having a big head for the Hound and keep this tucked away just in case.

I though of R'hillor and then I thought, yet again, of the elder wand in Harry Potter. How infallible and undefeatable we thought Dumbledore was but really he had a magical wand that can't be beaten and he wielded it. It works only if you are the true owner. Then not only is there R'hillor but there are the gods, the Warrior and the Stranger, which still sticks out for me that this is the name of his horse. Maybe he will get by with a wee bit of help from some gods that are rooting for him. I don't want to steal his thunder, but if he leaves the QI battle-rusty this may come in handy. I know the gods in regard to Sandor were discussed heavily on the thread a few days ago, but I was buried under a pile of paperwork, but I had never thought of the gods and him really before, because he doesn't seem to mention them much or be too thrilled with them. However, what would the Hound say if someone asked him,"Why did you name your horse, Stranger?" I can't figure out if it is more with the god, Stranger, or tipping the hat to the horse being strange, or Sandor and how he feels isolated or alone at times. Not sure of this at all.

And speaking of gods, they just might be touched. It is my biggest reason that I like Sansa so much now. Not being bitter. She prayed to the gods for Sandor. After he was a nasty piece of work to her at times, how she could still pray for him, just shows how exceptional of a person she is. Maybe they heard her?

[Starbird]

bgona, on 19 February 2012 - 04:20 AM, said:

I believe he got a new one. Some cloacks are or silk, but the ones of Sandor are of a vast material (as the one that Sansa got in the beating. He didn´t spend much money in superficial things.

I've missed a few pages so forgive me if this was addressed already. The cloak he throws to Sansa is wool. "Sansa clutched it against her chest, fists bunched hard in the white wool. The coarse weave was scratchy against her skin, but no velvet had ever felt so fine." ACOK

The ones Sers Meryn and Arys wear are white satin. "Behind [Joff and Sandor] were two knights of the Kingsguard in long white satin cloaks." GOT

I'd always assumed the crown provided their cloaks and that they'd all be uniform but apparently not. That's kind of beat if you have to have your own KG cloak made.

[brashcandy]

Question folks: Just when the hell did Sandor develop feelings for Sansa to the extent that he went to her room and offered himself as a boyfriend?

[Caro99]

    & I think that sandor may have felt a little guilty after what he did to mycah, but as he says himself, he’s killed thousands of others, so maybe that incident didn’t really struck him as much until arya comes along. After that though, of course he regretted it. & maybe   a reason why grrm didn’t have sandor as a point of view character is cause he gave us Jaime, so he wanted to show us another mean guy turning good through other’s eyes. And about the kettleblacks, yes it probably resembles san/san the whole osney/margaery thing. How ironic for cersei to want to plot something which had already happened of its own accord previously. She did not notice it cause she disregarded sansa as clever and scheming and a potential threat, and with sandor, well, maybe if he hadn’t been burned she may have thought of him as a kettleblack, but since he was only joff’s dog, she never stopped to think about the 2 of them together.

[Caro99]

oh brash, that's a question that makes me wish for sandor to have a point of view chapter! lol, well, o dont' think there was an exact point in which he stops ans realizes he wants her. it probably just took his some time to have these sort of feelings (so alien to him) developed, and then another period of time for him to admit it to himself. but probably the blackwater battle (drunk as he was) was where he decided he would go and risk his chances. he may have thought about it millions of times befre but would he have acted on it if the battle hadn't happened? offering to take her away and alwaps protect her, i mean...

[voodooqueen126]

brashcandy, on 19 February 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

Question folks: Just when the hell did Sandor develop feelings for Sansa to the extent that he went to her room and offered himself as a boyfriend?

good question.
and how will he react as Sansa becomes less innocent (not necessarily that Sansa will become immoral, but that innocence is a transitory state)

[clover]

Oh, I always thought when he showed up drunk in COK. I lent my books out that I read so I can't check the exact wording.

I was going to say that one time, but, er, it was more than one. LOL!

When he tells her that all a man needs is wine and/or a woman.

It was so lame, really, the entire conversation, with bad innuendo and hard, artless hinting, and I felt sorry for him, but I think it was a "hey, how about you and me" moment. Er, sort of.

Edited by clover, 19 February 2012 - 09:33 PM.

[Starbird]

brashcandy, on 19 February 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

Question folks: Just when the hell did Sandor develop feelings for Sansa to the extent that he went to her room and offered himself as a boyfriend?

Around the time he lost his job and any respect he might have had in KL. With nothing left to lose, he might as well see if the pretty girl wanted to take a road trip.

[clover]

Really, he made so many attempts to talk to her alone, and with his gruff speech, cursing, drinking, and lack of tact or smoothness with the ladies, there were many times it seemed he was trying to pick her brain or at least hint stuff to her but he dropped the ball big time.

Sometimes, before he really knew her well, I think he would try to get her mad or a rise or reaction out of her and she never really rose to the bait and it either perplexed, drove him nuts, or he was dumb-founded. Something, but not sure which. Because if he could provoke her and make her mad, then he can't get rejected in his mind. But it never really worked because she is so patient with his nonsense and continues to talk to him without much attitude or annoyance, and I think it backfires and he ends up caring for her more because of it. I hope I just worded this the way I meant it.

[brashcandy]

clover, on 19 February 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

Oh, I always thought when he showed up drunk in COK. I lent my books out that I read so I can't check the exact wording.

I was going to say that one time, but, er, it was more than one. LOL!

When he tells her that all a man needs is wine and/or a woman.

It was so lame, really, the entire conversation, with bad innuendo and hard, artless hinting, and I felt sorry for him, but I think it was a "hey, how about you and me" moment. Er, sort of.

Yeah, I suppose that's the first time he noticed she was developing a more mature body. He tells her she's taller and the teats... (classy Sandor). But still, he dismisses her as just a silly little bird and I've never thought he was perving after her directly in that scene. Maybe I'm wrong?

Starbird, on 19 February 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

Around the time he lost his job and any respect he might have had in KL. With nothing left to lose, he might as well see if the pretty girl wanted to take a road trip.

This could honestly be it.  I'm thinking of this question because Rapsie just reviewed their last scene together before the Blackwater battle, the one where Sandor tells her he's tired of her peeping at him, and in that scene we get no real overt hints of his interest, but as I noted in the other thread there seems to be something brewing beneath the surface. It's the first time we they almost appear as equals, with Sansa not afraid to speak back to him and challenge his beliefs. Perhaps between the beating at court and the riot where Sansa is almost pulled from the horse, something clicked for him.

[clover]

Man, this question got the thoughts flowing. I've thought of his conversations with her like his sword-fighting. Moves in closer, ducks back, moves in closer, etc. Sometimes it looks like he is really going to tell her how he feels or does, or is more complimentary, and then he reverts back to talking to her like she is dumb, naive, and cute, and it is a different tone or wording, and more violent or gruff. He just hammers her verbally with endless drivel. Sometimes with zeal, and other times he sounds more moody. But being nervous and insecure and really being damned frightened of his feelings for her didn't help his conversations with her either.

Quote

   it probably just took his some time to have these sort of feelings (so alien to him) developed, and then another period of time for him to admit it to himself. but probably the blackwater battle (drunk as he was) was where he decided he would go and risk his chances. he may have thought about it millions of times befre but would he have acted on it if the battle hadn't happened? offering to take her away and alwaps protect her, i mean...

Quote by Caro99

The bedroom scene is still the trickiest one. I would never believe he would offer her any of that yet he did. I still try to figure out how much of what put him over the edge. The fire, the alcohol, the loss of honor, leaving his job, deciding to leave the Lannisters and KL, wanting her, wanting to rescue her. It really was let's make a deal time with him. But in a way he really was offering her, ok, i can get you out of here and keep you safe and you can be with me. Which still drives me nuts. Did he expect her to say yes? Did he expect her to say no, and that would help him ease his guilt if he left her? Was this a way of forcing her to be with him, they would be alone on the road? Was he really concerned about Joff mistreating her? Because in the end he did leave her. Boggles me.

[childofsummer]

Starbird, on 19 February 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

I've missed a few pages so forgive me if this was addressed already. The cloak he throws to Sansa is wool. "Sansa clutched it against her chest, fists bunched hard in the white wool. The coarse weave was scratchy against her skin, but no velvet had ever felt so fine." ACOK

The ones Sers Meryn and Arys wear are white satin. "Behind [Joff and Sandor] were two knights of the Kingsguard in long white satin cloaks." GOT

I'd always assumed the crown provided their cloaks and that they'd all be uniform but apparently not. That's kind of beat if you have to have your own KG cloak made.

I remember reading (one of Jaime's POVs?) that KG had several cloaks, some finer material and others for "work." So the crown probably provided them, and Sandor wisely didn't wear satin into battle.   Maybe he also refused to wear the satin one, period.

[childofsummer]

brashcandy, on 19 February 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

Question folks: Just when the hell did Sandor develop feelings for Sansa to the extent that he went to her room and offered himself as a boyfriend?

Begging Mr. Darcy's forgiveness for the paraphrase: I cannot name the time or look or place.  I was in the middle of it before I knew it.  I think Sandor himself would have a hard time giving a defining moment, esp since he has spent so much time running from thinking about what he feels.

[clover]

He has commented on what a courteous proper lady she is at the tavern. Then why did he think that a maiden, who is a lady from House Stark and betrothed to the King would rough it on the road with HIM? It really had to be that he had nothing to lose in asking. And it really does sound like he is trying to convince her to give him a shot, and that he would make an ok boyfriend. He doesn't use that term, of course, but I believed too that he was trying to be as persuasive as possible. With the offer in words, he clearly didn't think about how being rough with her and being drunk would, er, not work in his favor for him...at all.

Did it ever sound to anyone that he was trying to take advantage of her or he was trying too hard to convince her? It sounded almost like he already made a mental list of all the positive points he could bring up as to why she should leave with him. Like, I can do this and this for you, but....the but being,  you will have to be with me....did it hang in the air unspoken for anyone when you read it? I am not sure what I think of this either, but I have to admit it did cross my mind when I first read the scene.