So much good stuff in this thread!!!
brashcandy, on 19 February 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:
This could honestly be it. I'm thinking of this question because Rapsie just reviewed their last scene together before the Blackwater battle, the one where Sandor tells her he's tired of her peeping at him, and in that scene we get no real overt hints of his interest, but as I noted in the other thread there seems to be something brewing beneath the surface. It's the first time we they almost appear as equals, with Sansa not afraid to speak back to him and challenge his beliefs. Perhaps between the beating at court and the riot where Sansa is almost pulled from the horse, something clicked for him.
I really need to get back to that thread. We've been doing a Sandor re-read over at Headrip_Honey's LJ site so we've hit a lot of the same chapters. Good point about them almost being equals. I've been reading the "I'm sick of you peeping at me" line as him getting frustrated that she refuses to be impressed by his blustering over the awesomeness of killing. Up until then, she was buying what he was selling without question but, now, she's getting deep and he's starting to squirm. "I love killing people! Rawr!" "Aren't you worried about going to hell??" Buzzkill. It's also interesting that, when she does start to challenge him, he says the most awful thing ever about her dad's legs jerking, like he can't take that she's not just swooning over his martial prowess. The conversation isn't going his way so he tells her he's sick of her peeping and sends her on her way. But who's always demanding to be looked at?? And now he's tired of being seen? More like he's not liking the light in which she's seeing him. Sandor! So difficult!
clover, on 19 February 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:
The bedroom scene is still the trickiest one. I would never believe he would offer her any of that yet he did. I still try to figure out how much of what put him over the edge. The fire, the alcohol, the loss of honor, leaving his job, deciding to leave the Lannisters and KL, wanting her, wanting to rescue her. It really was let's make a deal time with him. But in a way he really was offering her, ok, i can get you out of here and keep you safe and you can be with me. Which still drives me nuts. Did he expect her to say yes? Did he expect her to say no, and that would help him ease his guilt if he left her? Was this a way of forcing her to be with him, they would be alone on the road? Was he really concerned about Joff mistreating her? Because in the end he did leave her. Boggles me.
LOL I've been enjoying your posts.
I think he was genuinely concerned for her safety. I mean, he saw Boros or Meryn take the flat of his sword to the backs of her legs, and multiple beatings besides. He must've realized that his advice was only going to get her so far. Also, he himself was no longer able to cow or manipulate Joffrey so he probably knew that things were going to come to a head very soon. I think he fully expected her to say yes because what in the world could she want more than to get the hell out of KL asap?
childofsummer, on 19 February 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:
I remember reading (one of Jaime's POVs?) that KG had several cloaks, some finer material and others for "work." So the crown probably provided them, and Sandor wisely didn't wear satin into battle.
Maybe he also refused to wear the satin one, period.
Yeah, I'm not sure I could take him seriously if he started sashaying around KL in satin.
clover, on 19 February 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:
He has commented on what a courteous proper lady she is at the tavern. Then why did he think that a maiden, who is a lady from House Stark and betrothed to the King would rough it on the road with HIM? It really had to be that he had nothing to lose in asking. And it really does sound like he is trying to convince her to give him a shot, and that he would make an ok boyfriend. He doesn't use that term, of course, but I believed too that he was trying to be as persuasive as possible. With the offer in words, he clearly didn't think about how being rough with her and being drunk would, er, not work in his favor for him...at all.
Did it ever sound to anyone that he was trying to take advantage of her or he was trying too hard to convince her? It sounded almost like he already made a mental list of all the positive points he could bring up as to why she should leave with him. Like, I can do this and this for you, but....the but being, you will have to be with me....did it hang in the air unspoken for anyone when you read it? I am not sure what I think of this either, but I have to admit it did cross my mind when I first read the scene.
::snort!:: I have to be honest, I completely missed the persuasive elements of his offer the first time I read the scene. I was overcome by the whole "I could keep you safe" thing. But, I don't think the "you'll have to be with me" thing was hanging in the air unspoken. I think, rather, that that was perhaps a main selling point. Who besides Sandor could reasonably make that offer and actually be believed? Who would she trust with her well-being besides him? She was busy playing games with freaking Dontos yet she doesn't confide in Sandor her desperation to escape. Why?? She has more reason to trust him than Dontos. Sandor has witnessed first-hand more of her pain and humiliation than Dontos. Yet she doesn't turn to him. Why, why, why???
brashcandy, on 20 February 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:
So, what does a man like Sandor do after he receives what was probably the most heartfelt, caring touch of his life that he can remember? He has either two options: kiss the girl (I'm saying this in my Sebastien voice from the little mermaid) or he can leave. He chooses option b, not because he wasn't feeling option a, but because I think if he had gone for option a, it would have gone all the way to option z (if you know what I mean bgona
) and he's also deeply ashamed at his behaviour and overwhelmed by the song, her, everything. At those kinds of moments, when you don't trust yourself to speak, because words don't come close to describing what you're feeling, or you know if you stay you'll be compromising someone's honour, it's best to go.
Hmm . . . I mainly agree but I don't think, after having his cheek cupped, that option Z was of any interest to him any more. Compassion isn't a turn-on. What does Tyrion say? Pity is the death of attraction or something? Kind of the same thing happening here.
I think if he'd kissed her gently, and stopped there, that would've been okay, since it would have been like a "thank you for understanding" sort of thing. Sandor's not someone who articulates to himself the difference between emotional intimacy and sexual intimacy, yet Sansa's compassionate gesture would've demonstrated that to him in an instant. Instead, he uses sex as a replacement for emotional intimacy, since his face rage and charming personality don't really allow for women to get to know him well. Sansa knows him better than anyone, and he's attracted to her, so his default mode is the threatening come-on. Sansa completely disarms him by knowing, better than himself, what he actually needs and giving it to him. It's amazingly sweet but not a turn-on. So I think he left because A) she didn't come out and accept his offer, B ) as you said, he was ashamed/overwhelmed, and C) he was exposed as having a need and a weakness - he offered her his strength and she made him cry. From his POV, he probably thought that that undermined his manly offer of indiscriminate slaughter on her behalf. (For the record, BC, that always makes me swoon, too.)
Lots of interesting points on whether or not their leaving together would've worked. I'd like to give Sansa the benefit of the doubt and think that she wouldn't be high maintenance on the road. If the girl can manage to say she loves Joffrey after he has her stripped in the yard, she can probably manage to sleep in the woods without complaint. I actually think Sandor would've been the problem. I think he'd be paranoid. As others noted, if they were caught, he'd be killed for sure. No question. He'd probably even say he kidnapped her so she'd be spared. But anyway, he'd be so paranoid about avoiding that that he'd be hypervigilant, which is tiring. He wouldn't sleep well, which would make him even crankier, and his crankiness would make him more combative with anyone they encountered. Not to mention his festering desire for Sansa. That would be a whole other level of stress. I don't think he'd take advantage of her because she'd be completely at his mercy, and that's exactly the situation he's rescuing her from. He wouldn't want her to equate him with Lannister-like oppression. So he'd be in this pressure-cooker situation with no real outlet. Not a good situation for a guy on the run with the king's betrothed.