414 replies to this topic

[MaryaStone]

brashcandy, on 19 February 2012 - 11:12 PM, said:

As much as I agree Arya is a pain in the ass, Sansa would have been an even bigger pain I just could not see their time together ending in anything but disaster unless he had managed to get her on a ship pronto and holed up somewhere in the Free cities. But travelling on the road with a highborn maiden who doesn't even enjoy riding on a horse, and having to make sure that her looks are concealed etc, would have been insane pressure for Sandor to handle. He may have thought he was up to the challenge, but as we've noted, the man was thinking with his heart, not his head.

One of the reasons Arya could survive and didn't get raped or something like that is that he's a mousey little girl, she doesn't even look like a girl. Sansa could never achieve that: too pretty, too feminine. They would ravage her if she had managed to get away from KL like Arya did. With her looks, she stood no chances.

Sandor and Sansa would probably attract attention if they escaped together, they'd need to find plain clothes for her and pretend they were man and wife. Both of them are too easy to recognise and once it was known they were missing (together), it would be too difficult for them not to bee spotted anywhere.

Sansa wasn't used to hardships, the road journey would be very difficult and they'd be easily noticed but I've always thought there was something else. He realised he couldn't trust himself near her on the roads, alone.

He probably thought that, what he had thought (with his heart and not his brains, as you've said) wasn't such a good idea, that she probably was better off if she stayed, because they could be caught and they'd pay it with their lives (surely they'd assume they were lovers if they caught them together : eloping? ) and also because he couldn't trust himself as the scene in her bedroom shows. He wanted her far too much, and this need was becoming also physical. I don't think he would have raped her, but if they had spent a long time together, if they'd had to sleep so near each other, day after day, I bet that maidenhead couldn't have lasted long. I think the reluctant knight in him thought this was wrong, took off his white cloak, left it and quietly went away, alone.

I also agree with you when you say he wasn't perving when he mentioned her teats, It sounded more like Sandor stating ,matter-of-factly, that she looked womanly. The man is uncouth and harsh. Another man would have noticed her breasts but would have been more polite and avoided mentioning them, or he would have leered at them like I'm quite positive Littlefinger did, perhaps when she was looking elsewhere, but I'm sure he did.

Edited by MaryaStone, 20 February 2012 - 10:02 AM.

[Villemo]

clover, on 19 February 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

However, what would the Hound say if someone asked him,"Why did you name your horse, Stranger?"

in my opinion it's simple- Stranger was the god of death, so the person who rides on this horse is Death himself. And Sandor - in his opinion- is a death...

Elba the Intoner, on 19 February 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

The scene on the serpentine steps sticks out for me as a turning point.  I got the feeling that he went looking for her, and the line about all a man needs is wine or a woman, then referring to her body, just seems like he went looking for her to see what might happen

damn translation, in my language it's translated as 'all a man needs is wine. Women needs wine too' or sth like that. Damn.

childofsummer, on 20 February 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

We need a Hound wooing instruction manual!

awesome
you are great

[bgona]

Do you really believe that Sandor realize that he couldn´t trust himself?

Anyway I love how you have expose the idea. I keep reading the sentences of not trusting himself.

Clover I was wondering where you were!

And to all the rest: this weekend I was watching Lady and The Tramp with my daughter and I keep making coincides with this SanSan. Jajajaja.

[brashcandy]

Thrice the Hound, on 20 February 2012 - 01:11 AM, said:

Hey about the "when did the Hound announce his intention to be Sansa's boyfriend" subject that you guys are talking about....

I know this is going to sound stupid but we had the movie Clueless on TV last night (honest it was just playing in the back ground whilst I was lurking in the forum   don't judge me   ) and this Sandor situation kind of reminds me of the scene when that leading air head is starting to figure out she has a crush onthat cute guy that lives in her house. It takes her all day going over and over why she is upset that he is interested in someone else. Until it finally dawns on her that she is in love with him... then she becomes very awkward around him.

I don't know if he really knew what he was doing in that room but he got kind of awkward with Arya when he was talking about her. Maybe it was his version of Clueless????

I probably just lost all credibility saying that

Lost credibility!? But that's standard for everyone who sees something more in the San/San relationship. Welcome to the thread officially!

No, I think you make a solid point. A lot of Sandor's behaviour reeks of cluelessness. He doesn't know how to talk to this girl, so he behaves inappropriately, commenting on her developing body, putting his sword at her throat etc. He doesn't know how to be charming, so he resorts to being threatening. And it takes him confronting his fear of fire again at the battle to make him realise that he's had it with the life he was living, and that he wants to take Sansa away with him. I do honestly think he wanted to protect her. He had seen her being hurt and mistreated and wanted to do right by her this time. But his interest in her was a lot more than simple guardian. The irony of his proposal is that Sandor spends so much time mocking true knights, and that night that's exactly what he turned up to be, attempting to rescue the damsel in distress.

@Rapsie - I agree with what you said. A lot of posters don't take Sansa seriously as a character, so they miss a lot of what is happening with Sandor.

[only me]

Villemo, on 20 February 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

damn translation, in my language it's translated as 'all a man needs is wine. Women needs wine too' or sth like that. Damn.

This is why I had to buy the books also in English. The ambiguity just gets lost in translation.

[brashcandy]

bgona, on 20 February 2012 - 06:55 AM, said:

Do you really believe that Sandor realize that he couldn´t trust himself?

If he didn't realise it then, he would have very very soon. Let's see: after he's all threatening and disgusting in her room that night of the BB, and demands a song, she sings the mother's hymn and he begins crying. We don't know it and she doesn't know it until she touches his face, and she doesn't even know why she touches his face. It wasn't like a friendly pat of "there, there, it'll be alright, you don't have to be frightened of the fire." It was a straight up intimate gesture that we've already deduced you don't make to someone that you're not "feeling." I use the word feeling here because it captures IMO two layers of meaning: the first is the literal one: Sansa is attracted to him too, and the second is that she's able to completely empathise with him in this moment, and reaches out to communicate that. So, what does a man like Sandor do after he receives what was probably the most heartfelt, caring touch of his life that he can remember? He has either two options: kiss the girl (I'm saying this in my Sebastien voice from the little mermaid) or he can leave. He chooses option b, not because he wasn't feeling option a, but because I think if he had gone for option a, it would have gone all the way to option z (if you know what I mean bgona ) and he's also deeply ashamed at his behaviour and overwhelmed by the song, her, everything. At those kinds of moments, when you don't trust yourself to speak, because words don't come close to describing what you're feeling, or you know if you stay you'll be compromising someone's honour, it's best to go.

Edited by brashcandy, 20 February 2012 - 07:50 AM.

[bgona]

Villemo, on 20 February 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

in my opinion it's simple- Stranger was the god of death, so the person who rides on this horse is Death himself. And Sandor - in his opinion- is a death...



damn translation, in my language it's translated as 'all a man needs is wine. Women needs wine too' or sth like that. Damn.



awesome
you are great

Finally the mistery is result!!

Don´t damn it. It´s better to us. It is one of the good things of the translations.

[bgona]

Brashcandy, you convince me. I didn´t thought on that point. Aand not only cause the Sebastian voice.

PS.: This time I caught option z. It would have be too far on that moment.

[voodooqueen126]

brashcandy, on 19 February 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

By the time Sandor kidnaps Arya she's become pretty road-hardened already by her journey with Yoren, the BWB etc, plus she was always a natural tomboy. But even Arya found it hard in those early days, having to hide to pee etc. Imagine what that would have been like for Sansa, and I can't see Sandor being able to let her go very far from his sight even for privacy's sake. Going to an inn in Westeros by that time had also become the equivalent of fighting in a battle - prepare to kill or be killed. And the lookout for a pretty maiden and big hulking man would have intensified in those locations. And of course, all of this is problematic without even considering the elephant in the room: their attraction to one another.

This  elephant often explored romantically in fanfiction, but I think it would've ended in disaster:
My father and I discussed why there are so many sad endings in literature: Romeo and Juliet,  Anna Karenina, Madam Bovary, lady Deadlock dying in Bleak House etc. Basically all those people broke the rules; Romeo and Juliet disobeyed their parents and all those other women had slept around. So therefore they had to die.
If Sandor and Sansa had gone off together, he would've acted on their attraction, but since she would have been 12 for the first two months and then thirteen, it would've rendered Sandor as disgusting to us as 19th century people found Madam Bovary (even though the authors of all these great classical works, in their art, make the heroines and Romeo sympathetic, most contemporary literature that hasn't survived and been entered into the classical canon, did not make these figures sympathetic*) yet despite the fact that Madam Bovary was portrayed sympathetically by Flaubert, there was no way he could let her live.  Likewise there would be no way that an author could let Sandor live, if he slept with a girl under the age of 14, even if Sandor was portrayed highly sympathetically.

*my leftwing lecturers love to go on about how in his time Shakespeare was considered low brow popular culture, but the fact remains is that a lot of other playwrites and authors operated at this time, but the only reason we ever read them now is because we want to know what kind of influence they had on Shakespeare! Shakespeare genius-the reason that he is entered into the classical canon, rather than being a forgotten 15th century playwrite like all the other hacks, is his ability to step out of his time and be enjoyable in all centuries: 18th century people thought that his plays personified Englightenment virtues, 19th century people thought him to represent Victorian values, today we consider him some sort of rebel who skewed the establishment, tomorrow we consider him to be something else.  Two  good examples of this Othello-based of Cinthio story about a Moore who marries Desdemona, the moral of the story was "don't marry a non white, because they are emotional and jealous", yet Shakespeare imbues Othello with nobility, and ultimately, a conscience (Cinthio's Moore is killed by Desdemona's angry relatives, whilst the Ensign is punished for unrelated crimes) where as when Othello realises that Desdemona was innocent he kills Iago and himself (and he must die, more for marrying Desdemona than for killing her). Another example is the Merchant of Venice, which is pretty much based off Christopher Marlowe's play (and presumably a lot other even nastier plays that fortunately have not come down to us), even though Shakespeare makes Shylock a villain whose 'happy ending' is to be forcefully converted, he still gives Shylock humanity and heroism (indeed considering how Barabbas gets horribly boiled alive at the of The Jew of Malta, perhaps Shakespeare, having endowed his villain with such heroism and humanity felt the need to give him a 'happy ending', which is why the play has such lasting power.
So therefore oh divine lecturer, it may well be true that Shakespeare started off in the bear pit, but so did a lot of other playwrites, and we don't find them worthwhile 500 years later, just Shakespeare. So before you make your class read
http://www.amazon.co...29744297&sr=1-3http://www.amazon.co...29744297&sr=1-3
how about you wait 100 years to see if it is still being read and then make it a prescribed text for this course?

childofsummer, on 20 February 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

We need a Hound wooing instruction manual!
Step one: Approach the lady.  Ideally, do not grab her in the dark and scare the crap out of her.
Step two: Greet her.  Hint: "nice teats" doesn't cut it.
Step three: Find a topic that interests her.  This would not be the time to bring up her father's murder.  Also see Step two.
Step four: Tell her you like her.  Preferably without involving edged weapons.
Step five: Wait for a response.  Try not to tell her you're sick of her "peeping."
Step six (may occur before step three): See if there's something you can do for her.  Saving her from a mob would be a great start!  Saving her from her abusive betrothed might be even better.  Getting her out of the clutches of the family that murdered hers would be gold!  (See #4 prohibition on using edged weapons to convince her to leave with you.)
Repeat.
After you have mastered steps 1-6, ask the lady nicely (no weapons, mind!), and you may be able to move on to steps 7-10.

There was  courtesy literature http://www.amazon.co...s01_i00_details
which was often geared towards making a woman like you.

It was often written in the vernacular and apparently poetry was considered a good medium for instruction (which makes sense since most people were illiterate and poetry is easily remembered)

Thrice the Hound, on 20 February 2012 - 01:11 AM, said:

Hey about the "when did the Hound announce his intention to be Sansa's boyfriend" subject that you guys are talking about....

I know this is going to sound stupid but we had the movie Clueless on TV last night (honest it was just playing in the back ground whilst I was lurking in the forum   don't judge me   ) and this Sandor situation kind of reminds me of the scene when that leading air head is starting to figure out she has a crush onthat cute guy that lives in her house. It takes her all day going over and over why she is upset that he is interested in someone else. Until it finally dawns on her that she is in love with him... then she becomes very awkward around him.

I don't know if he really knew what he was doing in that room but he got kind of awkward with Arya when he was talking about her. Maybe it was his version of Clueless????

I probably just lost all credibility saying that

Watching Clueless is nothing to be ashamed of-it is after all based off Jane Austen's Emma.
I watched it last year as part of a unit called "narratives of youth", which was a whole semester of coming of age literature.

[MaryaStone]

brashcandy, on 20 February 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

   @Rapsie - I agree with what you said. A lot of posters don't take Sansa seriously as a character, so they miss a lot of what is happening with Sandor.

Exactly, they just skip the chapters and don't pick up relevant information. How can you expect them to notice subtle implications and hints, foreshadowing and double-entenders if they don't even realize what's been stated in front of their eyes, clear as day-light (like for example: Sansa does not like Tyrion and Tyrion does not like Sansa). Some people just see what they want to see, they only see Sansa as a valuable prize and don't respect her or value her as a human being.

I wouldn't like to sound harsh, but I very much doubt some posters reading skills ( they are the minority, it's true, but they are extremely vocal). I've even thought, and not occasionally, by the way, that some of them have only watched the show and entered the threads for the simple sake of trolling and having some fun at the expense of other posters who take them seriously and even try to expose their points for them in a reasonable way, to no avail, because these people simply don't care to ponder and consider the evidence given.

Of course the evidence can be interpreted in different ways, but how can you ignore it? It's as if we ignored and denied that the Hound killed Mycah because we wanted to see him the way we wanted to.

I think it's all there, in the text, but I wouldn't waste my time trying to convince those who don't want to be convinced; there's no one blinder than those who don't want to see.

We may argue on the nature and detail of this relationship or where it will lead, but it can't be ignored (unless one insists on being stubborn and blind). It may be only a sort of weird friendship and mutual understanding, a mentor/pupil relationship, which surprisingly works both ways (because I think both of them are learning from each other). She may only be his reason to reconsider the life he has lead until he met her (he's emotionally numb and she wakes him up, making him feel raw and aching) and he may be there to make her realise that a pearl can be found in the mud and appearances can be incredibly deceiving, because there's more honour in battle-hardened, foul-mouthed Sandor Clegane than in all the knights who look elsewhere when she's mistreated and humiliated.

Will these relationship turn into a love story? I think it will, I even think it already is a love story if we consider that there are many types of love, and what the Hound feels for Sansa ( he respects her as a person, tries to teach her what he learnt in such a brutal way and shares his opinions on life, morality and honour with a child others look down on because they think her dumb) is deeper and more significant than a simple romantic infatuation. That's why this relationship is so poignant.

The problem is that he is a man, a depressed, deeply hurt, emotionally numb (as regards violence) man, and therefore his feelings are the ones of an adult (inexperienced in emotional matters, but an adult) while she's a pre-teen girl, so they are at different stages of life and this makes their interactions very complicated, ambiguous and difficult to classify.

I admire GRR for this little gift because writing about such a deep emotional bond between a pre-teen girl and a twenty something man is surely risky business. It could have come out as creepy (for some people it has) but I don't think it has. It's powerful, nuanced and poignant,complicated and disquieting, but not creepy and dirty.

What the Hound feels for Sansa is not dirty. His body may have betrayed him during the room scene but he didn't act on these unwanted instinctive impulses he had. He stopped himself and left. I really have the impression that he left because he realised he could be dangerous for her and he didn't want to harm her. And yes, I think that if they'd been alone for too long on the roads and sleeping in the open, at barns or inns, always alone and so close to each other, he'd have ended up holding her and she'd have welcomed human contact. From that first step to having sex, it would have been only a matter of time. He knows that, she feels it (in an instinctive way she knows) and that's why he doesn't take her with him and she doesn't accept his offer. They had to part because it wasn't their time, not yet. Perhaps there will be no other chance, because all of us can think of possibilities that never were, those what ifs? all of us think about from time to time.
Well, it was neither the time nor the place for them. What will happen? We'll have to wait and see.

If some readers can't or refuse to see the poignancy, subtlety and depth this relationship has and choose to take it for some older man creeping over child sordid story, it's their loss, not ours.

George has been weaving this story in tiny bits (those teaspoons, nice way to put it ) creating a sort of gossamer-like lacy table cover, with care and subtlety since the firs book. I really don't believe this will be only a loose end, I think it was in his original plan from the beginning and he has a very clear idea where it will end and why.

I do think this is the real love story in the series, because no other started in book one, and something that comes later in the series isn't usually intended to have a strong impact. That's why I don't care about Aegon ( and much less Harry the heir or Willas). She may marry anyone, but I'm sure she's already found the love of her life.

I know life doesn't work this way, but I think literature does. GRR can't pop up a lover for Sansa as if he was taking a rabbit out of a hat, because this wouldn't elicit much emotional impact.

Of course she can marry anyone, even someone we haven't met yet, but I don't think that will be her love story because it wouldn't work as regards literary impact whereas Sandor/Sansa would work: some will like it , some may dislike it but it won't leave readers cold and indifferent, and that's what matters when you read or write a good story.

What kind of story will it be? Star-crossed love, unrequited love, misunderstanding, confusion, bad timing, drama, tragicomedy or tragedy, bittersweet hopeful ending? Anything is possible, but the story has been set up, the characters haven't forgotten each other in the distance, George hasn't let us readers forget any of them and the armageddon that is coming with Aegon, Dany and the dragons, Stannis, the Greyjoys, and last but not least, the Others, may lead to a new order where a relationship between a former warrior and a former lady wouldn't feel so impossible, or would it?

Edited by MaryaStone, 21 February 2012 - 04:06 AM.

[Starbird]

So much good stuff in this thread!!!

brashcandy, on 19 February 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

This could honestly be it.  I'm thinking of this question because Rapsie just reviewed their last scene together before the Blackwater battle, the one where Sandor tells her he's tired of her peeping at him, and in that scene we get no real overt hints of his interest, but as I noted in the other thread there seems to be something brewing beneath the surface. It's the first time we they almost appear as equals, with Sansa not afraid to speak back to him and challenge his beliefs. Perhaps between the beating at court and the riot where Sansa is almost pulled from the horse, something clicked for him.

I really need to get back to that thread. We've been doing a Sandor re-read over at Headrip_Honey's LJ site so we've hit a lot of the same chapters. Good point about them almost being equals. I've been reading the "I'm sick of you peeping at me" line as him getting frustrated that she refuses to be impressed by his blustering over the awesomeness of killing. Up until then, she was buying what he was selling without question but, now, she's getting deep and he's starting to squirm. "I love killing people! Rawr!" "Aren't you worried about going to hell??" Buzzkill. It's also interesting that, when she does start to challenge him, he says the most awful thing ever about her dad's legs jerking, like he can't take that she's not just swooning over his martial prowess. The conversation isn't going his way so he tells her he's sick of her peeping and sends her on her way. But who's always demanding to be looked at?? And now he's tired of being seen? More like he's not liking the light in which she's seeing him. Sandor! So difficult!

clover, on 19 February 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

The bedroom scene is still the trickiest one. I would never believe he would offer her any of that yet he did. I still try to figure out how much of what put him over the edge. The fire, the alcohol, the loss of honor, leaving his job, deciding to leave the Lannisters and KL, wanting her, wanting to rescue her. It really was let's make a deal time with him. But in a way he really was offering her, ok, i can get you out of here and keep you safe and you can be with me. Which still drives me nuts. Did he expect her to say yes? Did he expect her to say no, and that would help him ease his guilt if he left her? Was this a way of forcing her to be with him, they would be alone on the road? Was he really concerned about Joff mistreating her? Because in the end he did leave her. Boggles me.

LOL I've been enjoying your posts. I think he was genuinely concerned for her safety. I mean, he saw Boros or Meryn take the flat of his sword to the backs of her legs, and multiple beatings besides. He must've realized that his advice was only going to get her so far. Also, he himself was no longer able to cow or manipulate Joffrey so he probably knew that things were going to come to a head very soon. I think he fully expected her to say yes because what in the world could she want more than to get the hell out of KL asap?

childofsummer, on 19 February 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

I remember reading (one of Jaime's POVs?) that KG had several cloaks, some finer material and others for "work." So the crown probably provided them, and Sandor wisely didn't wear satin into battle.   Maybe he also refused to wear the satin one, period.

Ahh, thanks. Yeah, I'm not sure I could take him seriously if he started sashaying around KL in satin.

clover, on 19 February 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

He has commented on what a courteous proper lady she is at the tavern. Then why did he think that a maiden, who is a lady from House Stark and betrothed to the King would rough it on the road with HIM? It really had to be that he had nothing to lose in asking. And it really does sound like he is trying to convince her to give him a shot, and that he would make an ok boyfriend. He doesn't use that term, of course, but I believed too that he was trying to be as persuasive as possible. With the offer in words, he clearly didn't think about how being rough with her and being drunk would, er, not work in his favor for him...at all.

Did it ever sound to anyone that he was trying to take advantage of her or he was trying too hard to convince her? It sounded almost like he already made a mental list of all the positive points he could bring up as to why she should leave with him. Like, I can do this and this for you, but....the but being,  you will have to be with me....did it hang in the air unspoken for anyone when you read it? I am not sure what I think of this either, but I have to admit it did cross my mind when I first read the scene.

::snort!:: I have to be honest, I completely missed the persuasive elements of his offer the first time I read the scene. I was overcome by the whole "I could keep you safe" thing. But, I don't think the "you'll have to be with me" thing was hanging in the air unspoken. I think, rather, that that was perhaps a main selling point. Who besides Sandor could reasonably make that offer and actually be believed? Who would she trust with her well-being besides him? She was busy playing games with freaking Dontos yet she doesn't confide in Sandor her desperation to escape. Why?? She has more reason to trust him than Dontos. Sandor has witnessed first-hand more of her pain and humiliation than Dontos. Yet she doesn't turn to him. Why, why, why???

brashcandy, on 20 February 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

So, what does a man like Sandor do after he receives what was probably the most heartfelt, caring touch of his life that he can remember? He has either two options: kiss the girl (I'm saying this in my Sebastien voice from the little mermaid) or he can leave. He chooses option b, not because he wasn't feeling option a, but because I think if he had gone for option a, it would have gone all the way to option z (if you know what I mean bgona ) and he's also deeply ashamed at his behaviour and overwhelmed by the song, her, everything. At those kinds of moments, when you don't trust yourself to speak, because words don't come close to describing what you're feeling, or you know if you stay you'll be compromising someone's honour, it's best to go.

Hmm . . . I mainly agree but I don't think, after having his cheek cupped, that option Z was of any interest to him any more. Compassion isn't a turn-on. What does Tyrion say? Pity is the death of attraction or something? Kind of the same thing happening here.

I think if he'd kissed her gently, and stopped there, that would've been okay, since it would have been like a "thank you for understanding" sort of thing. Sandor's not someone who articulates to himself the difference between emotional intimacy and sexual intimacy, yet Sansa's compassionate gesture would've demonstrated that to him in an instant. Instead, he uses sex as a replacement for emotional intimacy, since his face rage and charming personality don't really allow for women to get to know him well. Sansa knows him better than anyone, and he's attracted to her, so his default mode is the threatening come-on. Sansa completely disarms him by knowing, better than himself, what he actually needs and giving it to him. It's amazingly sweet but not a turn-on. So I think he left because A) she didn't come out and accept his offer, B ) as you said, he was ashamed/overwhelmed, and C) he was exposed as having a need and a weakness - he offered her his strength and she made him cry. From his POV, he probably thought that that undermined his manly offer of indiscriminate slaughter on her behalf. (For the record, BC, that always makes me swoon, too.)


Lots of interesting points on whether or not their leaving together would've worked. I'd like to give Sansa the benefit of the doubt and think that she wouldn't be high maintenance on the road. If the girl can manage to say she loves Joffrey after he has her stripped in the yard, she can probably manage to sleep in the woods without complaint. I actually think Sandor would've been the problem. I think he'd be paranoid. As others noted, if they were caught, he'd be killed for sure. No question. He'd probably even say he kidnapped her so she'd be spared. But anyway, he'd be so paranoid about avoiding that that he'd be hypervigilant, which is tiring. He wouldn't sleep well, which would make him even crankier, and his crankiness would make him more combative with anyone they encountered. Not to mention his festering desire for Sansa. That would be a whole other level of stress. I don't think he'd take advantage of her because she'd be completely at his mercy, and that's exactly the situation he's rescuing her from. He wouldn't want her to equate him with Lannister-like oppression. So he'd be in this pressure-cooker situation with no real outlet. Not a good situation for a guy on the run with the king's betrothed.

[brashcandy]

@Marya. I'm hugging you through the screen of my computer, your posts are wonderful and so are you!

Starbird, this is one of those rare moments when I have to disagree with you (shocked, truly ) I think that the compassion shown to him by Sansa transformed that moment into something that could have easily led to sex. It was not pity, gosh no,. I think of her touching him as Sansa's way of communicating what she cannot express due to age and inexperience. It took away all the rage and anger and confusion of the past moments, and revealed two people who actually might understand each other despite their inability to communicate. Whilst I agree with you that sex as a replacement for emotional intimacy is something Sandor is accustomed to, "I'll have a song from you whether you will it or no", in that scene, it was all changed. Emotional intimacy was what would have led to the sex, not the other way around.

Edited by brashcandy, 20 February 2012 - 09:43 AM.

[clover]

A few things:

Did anyone see the season 2 trailer, or if not, images have been separately screen-capped all over the web.

There is a quick shot of the Hound lurking in a hallway. His face is in profile and he is standing quite still and either listening to something or observing or both. I will die if he is lurking near Sansa, and I wonder if anyone else saw this and it gives them this vibe too. There were a lot of times that he just appeared in COK and this might be it. Right before he would approach her and act like a right perfect idiot.

Hey Starbird and Bgona. I had a block for awhile because the thread's been on fire and I just couldn't process it all but I think it's over. LOL!

Also, I got to thinking about Sandor and his position in his home as the "second son" and what that meant in medieval times and the series. Bad enough his brother hurt him, the father down-played it, and then there were the sister and father "accidents." I was thinking that there is so much emphasis put on his burning incident, that there was also so much else going on that was terrible. As the second son growing up there was probably nothing for him but to enter the service of the Lannisters, and who knows if Gregor also wanted him dead so there were no other claimants, especially if Sandor was out of the way. I wonder if the Dad's "accident" was Gregor making sure that the father didn't name Sandor because it was becoming apparent that Gregor had, er, mental issues? And oh, dear, God what if we find out that the mother's death was an "accident" too? Not sure if this would happen but....

[Rapsie]

Starbird, on 20 February 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Ahh, thanks. Yeah, I'm not sure I could take him seriously if he started sashaying around KL in satin.

I feel a song coming on.........a bit Moody....and a bit of the Blues.

[bgona]

Marya you did it again!!

Starbird was Sansa who said that pity sentence in her wedding night about Tyrion. But never about The Hound. In all other that you haveexposed i agree 100%, but kissing her it would be as a dam breaking, they wouldnt be able to stop (Sansa maybe, but Sandor in that moment I believe that it is impossible).

--------------------

One important thing about ages: please I can´t see them as the age the author put, they are olders. Even at the show you can see tht ages are changed.

And we have to keep remembering that it is a imaginary world with resemblances of medieval age.

[Starbird]

Rapsie, on 20 February 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

I feel a song coming on.........a bit Moody....and a bit of the Blues.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Starbird]

bgona, on 20 February 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

Starbird was Sansa who said that pity sentence in her wedding night about Tyrion. But never about The Hound. In all other that you haveexposed i agree 100%, but kissing her it would be as a dam breaking, they wouldnt be able to stop (Sansa maybe, but Sandor in that moment I believe that it is impossible).

--------------------

One important thing about ages: please I can´t see them as the age the author put, they are olders. Even at the show you can see tht ages are changed.

brashcandy, on 20 February 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

Starbird, this is one of those rare moments when I have to disagree with you (shocked, truly ) I think that the compassion shown to him by Sansa transformed that moment into something that could have easily led to sex. It was not pity, gosh no. I think of her touching him as Sansa's way of communicating what she cannot express due to age and inexperience. It took away all the rage and anger and confusion of the past moments, and revealed two people who actually might understand each other despite their inability to communicate. Whilst I agree with you that sex as a replacement for emotional intimacy is something Sandor is accustomed to, "I'll have a song from you whether you will it or no", in that scene, it was all changed. Emotional intimacy was what would have led to the sex, not the other way around.

Bgona/BC - say it ain't so!

No, I don't think it was pity, either, but I don't think Sansa would have been down with anything more than a kiss, and even that she didn't want. She wasn't feeling seduced, even if he was.

I can certainly see the dam breaking argument, and that intimacy could have led to sex, but I do see both of those things as only coming from Sandor. He himself did away with the "whether you will it or no" argument when he broke down in the face of her kindness. I think he intended to kiss her and when she closed her eyes, and didn't will it, he realized he didn't want it that way. As for Sansa, she was too aware of having just dodged a bullet to think, "Oh, we've finally connected! Time to slip into something more comfortable!"

"It took away all the rage and anger and confusion of the past moments, and revealed two people who actually might understand each other despite their inability to communicate." Perfectly said. I'll only add that neither of them (well, Sansa, since we get her POV), seems to analyze their feelings very much. She notes now and again that the Hound saved her but she never takes that next step and thinks, "It was kind of hot when he saved me from the mob," or "Gee, he's been looking out for me quite a bit. I wonder if he's interested." Maybe she's too young. (Bgona, I, too, age her up in my mind. Nothing about her reminds me of being 12.) Anyway, my point is that there's definitely a gap between what Sandor might want and what would have been acceptable to Sansa at that moment. (How can this girl think about touching Loras's chest and never once pontificate on the Hound, around whose chest her arms were *wrapped*??) ::dies!::

[clover]

I was just thinking of Osney and Margeary and Cersei again and how that was so forced and contrived and it still didn't happen, but how Sandor and Sansa and what they have between them, how it just happened naturally. He was a douche at times and she still touched his cheek, prayed for him, thinks of him...

And even with the many arranged marriages in the series. How the forced marriages don't seem to work out very well. Is it me or is Sandor and Sansa the only pairing developing by choice or because there is no interference or pushing? Even Ned and Cat were without choice but they were lucky that it grew in time.

[Fragile Bird]

Gee guys, do you know how hard it is just to keep up with you....you go off into the outside world to do something and then it takes hours to catch up with fabulous fabulous posts!!!!!  Love you all!!!!

Took a couple of teenagers to a rock concert last night.  Standing in the mosh pit, the usual stuff, jammed with hundreds of teens and 20s, screaming (ears still hurt) water bottles flying, guitar picks, towels, twenty beach balls, singers throwing themselves in the audience and being carried around, and all I could think of is Sandor would like that song...

Two songs for your entertainment, no official video out yet for one so it's a live performance, on the theme of songs, and the second video made me laugh when I saw it, must be what Sandor felt like when he heard about Sansa's wedding.  Am I obsessed or what?  Can't go to a damn concert without thinking of you guys!

I toss this in as a diversion, since life has been interupting my contemplation of ASOIAF the past week!  Hope you enjoy.

http://youtu.be/QnDaQ12M3D8?hd=1
http://youtu.be/nHyYzezYWe0

Hope I did that right.

[MaryaStone]

Thanks, Brash, and Bgona! ! Besitos y abrazos a las dos
And to all the Sandor fans here and all the people interested in this thread. I'm sure we haven't been making it all up. It would be the first time I've noticed something like this in a book (a quality book, I mean, because you can expect anything from crappy books) to find I was wrong in the end. I don't expect stupid red herrings from George.

Really, I've said it before but I can't see Sansa's bedroom after his desertion as the right setting for something romantic, not even a kiss. He is completely inebriate, utterly scared, confuse and lost, he doesn't even know what to do with his life, he's very much like a battered stray dog now. As dangerous as a battered stray dog and he looks for the only thing in KL that means something to him, Sansa's comfort, her understanding. He wants to take her away with him and he wants to hold her, maybe not even kiss her, perhaps only to hold her and be held too. We don't really know. She feels he wants to kiss her and this is possible, but she may have been wrong too.

He wants to belong somewhere,to belong to someone, to have a purpose. He's spent more than half his life serving others and now he's lost, confused and probably suffering a PTDS episode because of the green fire. Sansa closing her eyes triggered the kind of reaction a wounded scared dog would have, he growled, snarled and nearly bit her; but no, he didn't bite, she sang to the beast and appeased his rage, she touched him and noticed that all his rage had dissolved into harmless tears.

No, there couldn't have been a kiss, it didn't belong in that room at that time, but her song, the way it calmed him, the way she touched him without fear when he most resembled a rabid dog, and those shocking badass tears were, on the whole, more poignant and haunting than all the kisses we could have imagined or wanted. I wouldn't change that scene for a thousand corny kisses. When it is the right time, I hope there will be a kiss that will feel right, without coercion and fear, without puke and sour wine smell (sorry guys, I know this spoils the mood), without shame and regrets.

Voodooqueen has explained very well why it couldn't be, because it would have broken the rules and we are meant to like their bond, not to find it creepy. I love Sandor, but I wouldn't have wanted him to kiss thirteen year old Sansa. I love him all the more because he didn't and because he didn't take her with him, because , realistically, with all the sexual tension that was obvious in that bedroom scene ( and the serpentine one, or even the one at Maegor Holdfast's roof) their story would have taken flight too soon and would have been spoiled. There is a place and a moment for everything and Sansa and Sandor are not there yet.

If Sansa and Sandor's story was only about sex and lust, we could have had some sort of 'romantic' scene between them ( maybe only a kiss, some caressing) but this is not the kind of story George has designed for them. I think Sandor really loves her and respects her, although he may not have realised, because  he knows nothing about love. This story has to wait until the right moment, then.

GRRR

I know, I know we have to wait, but it's not easy.

Edited by MaryaStone, 20 February 2012 - 12:31 PM.