414 replies to this topic

[clover]

Quote

   but her song, the way it calmed him, the way she touched him without fear when he most resembled a rabid dog, and those shocking badass tears were, on the whole, more poignant and haunting than all the kisses we could have imagined or wanted.     

Quote by MaryaStone

Oh, God, I just got an image of Cerberus. The dog with three headsin mythology that was soothed by song. And I forgot what he did. I think he guarded the gates to Hades or something. I have to check.

[brashcandy]

Starbird, on 20 February 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

Bgona/BC - say it ain't so!

No, I don't think it was pity, either, but I don't think Sansa would have been down with anything more than a kiss, and even that she didn't want. She wasn't feeling seduced, even if he was.

I can certainly see the dam breaking argument, and that intimacy could have led to sex, but I do see both of those things as only coming from Sandor. He himself did away with the "whether you will it or no" argument when he broke down in the face of her kindness. I think he intended to kiss her and when she closed her eyes, and didn't will it, he realized he didn't want it that way. As for Sansa, she was too aware of having just dodged a bullet to think, "Oh, we've finally connected! Time to slip into something more comfortable!"

Starbird, you are too bad, I nearly died laughing. Ok, ok, I can see we're gonna have to agree to disagree. I think his feelings would have carried her along, and that touching him in that way signified something more, but this is very much open to interpretation so that's that.

Quote

"It took away all the rage and anger and confusion of the past moments, and revealed two people who actually might understand each other despite their inability to communicate." Perfectly said. I'll only add that neither of them (well, Sansa, since we get her POV), seems to analyze their feelings very much. She notes now and again that the Hound saved her but she never takes that next step and thinks, "It was kind of hot when he saved me from the mob," or "Gee, he's been looking out for me quite a bit. I wonder if he's interested." Maybe she's too young. (Bgona, I, too, age her up in my mind. Nothing about her reminds me of being 12.) Anyway, my point is that there's definitely a gap between what Sandor might want and what would have been acceptable to Sansa at that moment. (How can this girl think about touching Loras's chest and never once pontificate on the Hound, around whose chest her arms were *wrapped*??) ::dies!::

Oh, I knew there was something I wanted to mention to you on the not thanking bit. In the chapter I'm preparing now for the re-read, when she's in the sept praying, she thinks of the Hound and says "he was no true knight, but he saved me all the same..." I think we see here an honest appreciation for what he did in the riot, but it's very Sansaesque. I expect age and time to add the hotness factor when she looks back on it And ditto on the chest thing! But in all fairness, it's hard to concentrate on how a man's chest feels when you're in mortal peril I have faith; she'll remember and appreciate.

Edited by brashcandy, 20 February 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[childofsummer]

MaryaStone, on 20 February 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

I know life doesn't work this way, but I think literature does. GRR can't pop up a lover for Sansa as if he was taking a rabbit out of a hat, because this wouldn't elicit very much emotional impact.

Another poster compared the impact of the SanSan scenes with Asha when her childhood admirer spilling his guts (for the life of me, I can't find it now), and I think Marya has gotten to the heart of why we roll our eyes at the poor guy panting after Asha, but are overwhelmed by catharsis with SanSan.  The Asha scene is a puppy love one that makes us wince because we know how little real connection is involved.  SanSan is Shakespeare's marriage of true minds, both of which yearn for a better world, though impediments abound.  We root for them because that kind of relationship is rare and precious.

Regarding the debate about the cheek caress and where it might have led, I think it's important to consider the different ways in which men and women express intimacy.  This came up at a chaplain-sponsored spouse retreat (hey, it was a free hotel weekend!), but I think it's relevant here.  The gist was that women need intimacy for sex, and men need sex for intimacy.  Sansa was taking a step toward the intimacy that she felt was developing between Sandor and herself by touching his cheek in that way.  As a result, she came closer (not that she was ready in any way at that time) to wanting him sexually.  Sandor, being a man, and unaccustomed to intimacy on an emotional level, was drawn to this.  I don't think her compassion, in this case, was the death of desire.  Rather, I think her compassion could have been the gateway to something much more physically and emotionally involved.  He wanted to be close to her, and closer, and I give him a great deal of credit for recognizing that she wasn't ready for it, and quietly leaving.

[clover]

Cerberus was described as a multi-headed hound with one brother who was a two-headed dog. I'll see if I can find anything else interesting.

In ony myth he was drugged with honeycakes to sleep. And if I would have seen lemoncakes I would have nearly died! LOL!

[childofsummer]

clover, on 20 February 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

Quote by MaryaStone

Oh, God, I just got an image of Cerberus. The dog with three headsin mythology that was soothed by song. And I forgot what he did. I think he guarded the gates to Hades or something. I have to check.

Yes, he lay down to the strains of Orpheus playing on his lyre when Orpheus was headed to the underworld to plead for the return of his dead wife.

[brashcandy]

MaryaStone, on 20 February 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

Thanks, Brash, and Bgona! ! Besitos y abrazos a las dos
And to all the Sandor fans here and all the people interested in this thread. I'm sure we haven't been making it all up. It would be the first time I've noticed something like this in a book (a quality book, I mean, because you can expect anything from crappy books) to find I was wrong in the end. I don't expect stupid red herrings from George.

Really, I've said it before but I can't see Sansa's bedroom after his desertion as the right setting for something romantic, not even a kiss. He is completely inebriate, utterly scared, confused and lost, he doesn't even know what to do with his life, he's very much like a battered stray dog now. As dangerous as a battered stray dog and he looks for the only thing in KL that means something to him, Sansa's comfort, her understanding. He wants to take her away with him and he wants to hold her, maybe not even kiss her, perhaps only to hold her and be held too. We don't really know. She feels he wants to kiss her and this is possible, but she may have been wrong too.

He wants to belong somewhere,to belong to someone, to have a purpose. He's spent more than half his life serving others and now he's lost, confused and probably suffering a PTDS episode because of the green fire. Sansa closing her eyes triggered the kind of reaction a wounded scared dog would have, he growled, snarled and nearly bit her; but no, he didn't bite, she sang to the beast and appeased his rage, she touched him and noticed that all his rage had dissolved into harmless tears.

No, there couldn't have been a kiss, it didn't belong in that room at that time, but her song, the way it calmed him, the way she touched him without fear when he most resembled a rabid dog, and those shocking badass tears were, on the whole, more poignant and haunting than all the kisses we could have imagined or wanted. I wouldn't change that scene for a thousand corny kisses. When it is the right time, I hope there will be a kiss that will feel right, without coercion and fear, without puke and sour wine smell (sorry guys, I know this spoils the mood), without shame and regrets.

Voodooqueen has explained very well why it couldn't be, because it would have broken the rules and we are meant to like their bond, not to find it creepy. I love Sandor, but I wouldn't have wanted him to kiss thirteen year old Sansa. I love him all the more because he didn't and because he didn't take him with him, because , realistically, with all the sexual tension that was obvious in that bedroom scene ( and the serpentine one, or even the one at Maegor Holdfast's roof) their story would have taken flight too soon and would have been spoiled. There is a place and a moment for everything and Sansa and Sandor are not there yet.

If Sansa and Sandor's story was only about sex and lust, we could have had some sort of 'romantic' scene between them ( maybe only a kiss, some caressing) but this is not the kind of story George has designed for them. I think Sandor really loves her and respects her, although he may not have realised, because  he knows nothing about love. This story has to wait until the right moment, then.

GRRR

I know, I know we have to wait, but it's not easy.

Beautifully said, Marya. I think the moment when everything came together, his tears/her touch, could have led to greater intimacy, but I wholeheartedly agree that it was the wrong time and the wrong place, and had it happened it would have been unfair to Sansa - not in the sense of rape, but that she wasn't ready to experience something so earth shattering, even if at that moment she was responding to him like an adult.

It's interesting how she thinks back on the night - with him coming to her on a night filled with green fire and taking a kiss and a song. I think GRRM has been really sensitive with handling this girl's characterization and he knows how much she yearns for that perfect song. I think she'll have it, and it will be with Sandor, and she'll be really freaking happy when all is said and done.

[clover]

Ok, well. The Clegane sigil has three dogs.

And a few other things I saw:

Cerberus is sometimes not referred to by his name in mythology., sometimes just "the Dog" or "the Hound."

He has lion's paws. (Doing the work of the Lannisters?)

He has some parts that are snakes, and this is a reach, but I thought of the Mountain and the Red Viper.

And I liked one description I found: That he was so dreadful to look at that many looked away or would be turned to stone. I never knew that. I always thought that was just Medusa' thing.

Anyway, if anyone finds something else....most Cerberus stuff seems to be similar.

[clover]

Quote

In ony myth he was drugged with honeycakes to sleep. And if I would have seen lemoncakes I would have nearly died! LOL!     

i spoke too soon. Ok, I did it.   I just looked up medieval food and ingredients and some recipes for lemon cakes and there is honey in it. Within the batter and as the glaze too. I think sugar came later but I have to check that.

I mean how many times is it said that she likes them? And I am taking soothing the dog over sleep, in San/San's case.

[brashcandy]

childofsummer, on 20 February 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

Another poster compared the impact of the SanSan scenes with Asha when her childhood admirer spilling his guts (for the life of me, I can't find it now), and I think Marya has gotten to the heart of why we roll our eyes at the poor guy panting after Asha, but are overwhelmed by catharsis with SanSan.  The Asha scene is a puppy love one that makes us wince because we know how little real connection is involved.  SanSan is Shakespeare's marriage of true minds, both of which yearn for a better world, though impediments abound.  We root for them because that kind of relationship is rare and precious.

Regarding the debate about the cheek caress and where it might have led, I think it's important to consider the different ways in which men and women express intimacy.  This came up at a chaplain-sponsored spouse retreat (hey, it was a free hotel weekend!), but I think it's relevant here.  The gist was that women need intimacy for sex, and men need sex for intimacy.  Sansa was taking a step toward the intimacy that she felt was developing between Sandor and herself by touching his cheek in that way.  As a result, she came closer (not that she was ready in any way at that time) to wanting him sexually.  Sandor, being a man, and unaccustomed to intimacy on an emotional level, was drawn to this.  I don't think her compassion, in this case, was the death of desire.  Rather, I think her compassion could have been the gateway to something much more physically and emotionally involved.  He wanted to be close to her, and closer, and I give him a great deal of credit for recognizing that she wasn't ready for it, and quietly leaving.

  and wonderfully said.

These threads just keep getting better and better, and I love all of you. Post-crush is a real thing, no homo

[Starbird]

brashcandy, on 20 February 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

[/b]

Starbird, you are too bad, I nearly died laughing. Ok, ok, I can see we're gonna have to agree to disagree. I think his feelings would have carried her along, and that touching him in that way signified something more, but this is very much open to interpretation so that's that.

Oh, I knew there was something I wanted to mention to you on the not thanking bit. In the chapter I'm preparing now for the re-read, when she's in the sept praying, she thinks of the Hound and says "he was no true knight, but he saved me all the same..." I think we see here an honest appreciation for what he did in the riot, but it's very Sansaesque. I expect age and time to add the hotness factor when she looks back on it And ditto on the chest thing! But in all fairness, it's hard to concentrate on how a man's chest feels when you're in mortal peril I have faith; she'll remember and appreciate.

It was bound to happen sooner or later. We do agree on this. We just disagree on Sansa's willingness to act on it at that moment.

Good point. I don't think she's without appreciation, I'm just not sure she realizes the full extent of how much he risked to help her. She has a home and extended family and a claim and beauty and manners . . . and he's got nothing but what the Lannisters give him. It's not strange that she doesn't think about that, given her age and station, but she's becoming more worldly so I'm hoping she'll make that connection. I, too, have faith that she'll remember and appreciate the feel of his chest.

[clover]

Never good when I have a day off from work...

Found some cool wolf stuff.

Lionesses are better at conquering prey...(Cersei did have Sansa in a vulnerable position for the longest.)

Wolves are in the canis dog family but that is nothing new.

Wolves are usually monogamous and stay with the same wolf for the length of their life. (This had better not refer to her and Tyrion or I will die!)

And then I noted a grouping called "wolf-dog." In order for them to mate, the wolf is the female and the male is the dog. I loved this one!

Still searching for cool stuff before I get ready to go back to work. URGH!

[littlespider]

clover, on 20 February 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

And then I noted a grouping called "wolf-dog." In order for them to mate, the wolf is the female and the male is the dog. I loved this one!

Nah. In ye olden days, before there were helicopter hunts, farmers used to leave bitches in heat tied out in the yard so that male wolves would sniff them out and mate with them.

When canines mate they kind of get stuck together for a while. So when the male wolf was stuck to the bitch the farmer would shoot the wolf.

[Elba the Intoner]

Thrice the Hound, on 20 February 2012 - 01:11 AM, said:

Hey about the "when did the Hound announce his intention to be Sansa's boyfriend" subject that you guys are talking about....

I know this is going to sound stupid but we had the movie Clueless on TV last night (honest it was just playing in the back ground whilst I was lurking in the forum   don't judge me   ) and this Sandor situation kind of reminds me of the scene when that leading air head is starting to figure out she has a crush onthat cute guy that lives in her house. It takes her all day going over and over why she is upset that he is interested in someone else. Until it finally dawns on her that she is in love with him... then she becomes very awkward around him.

I don't know if he really knew what he was doing in that room but he got kind of awkward with Arya when he was talking about her. Maybe it was his version of Clueless????

I probably just lost all credibility saying that

Are you kidding?  You have not lost credibility with me.  I love, love, love, the movie Clueless, almost as much as I love the book it is based on Emma, by Jane Austen.  We've already had a Mr. Darcy quote on this thread so why night a reference to Emma (sort of)?

[childofsummer]

littlespider, on 20 February 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

Nah. In ye olden days, before there were helicopter hunts, farmers used to leave bitches in heat tied out in the yard so that male wolves would sniff them out and mate with them.

When canines mate they kind of get stuck together for a while. So when the male wolf was stuck to the bitch the farmer would shoot the wolf.

Yikes!  Such... vivid imagery.  Poor wolf!    But then, I'm a sucker for dogs.  (she says as she pets the large, shaggy dog at her feet)

[littlespider]

childofsummer, on 20 February 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

Yikes!  Such... vivid imagery.  Poor wolf!    But then, I'm a sucker for dogs.  (she says as she pets the large, shaggy dog at her feet)

Ditto.

I had a brief encounter with a bunch of wolf/dog hybrids once (former humane society soldier here). Some guy had been breeding them in his basement. One of the saddest things I ever did see. They're stuck between two genetic worlds.

Though one of the pups licked and chewed on my fingers. It was worth the stabbity teefs. He was a cute and fuzzy little guy.

[Buckwheat]

Starbird, on 20 February 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

It was bound to happen sooner or later. We do agree on this. We just disagree on Sansa's willingness to act on it at that moment.

Good point. I don't think she's without appreciation, I'm just not sure she realizes the full extent of how much he risked to help her. She has a home and extended family and a claim and beauty and manners . . . and he's got nothing but what the Lannisters give him. It's not strange that she doesn't think about that, given her age and station, but she's becoming more worldly so I'm hoping she'll make that connection. I, too, have faith that she'll remember and appreciate the feel of his chest.

She has none of these anymore: Winterfell is burned and she does not feel at home in the Vale. Both her parents and all of her siblings are dead, as far as she knows, and the news of Jon's death will spread soon too. She never had much connection to the Tully side of the family, aunt Lysa is dead, she does not feel close to cousin Robert. Septa Mordane is dead. Jeyne Poole too, as far as she knows. She probably thinks everybody she had any connection to in Wineterfell - Old Nan, Beth Cassell, servants and their children - are dead. She trusted nobody in KL after Eddard's execution, so she had no connection to anybody, except for the Hound. Dontos is dead, she was wary of the Tyrells even when they wanted her to marry Willas, Littlefinger kind of annoys her. Is the Hound the last one for a very long time now that she has felt any sort of connection to? Will he learn her how to feel some (probably very weird) sort of friendship/gentleness/psychical connection to anybody?

And, by the Seven, am I the only one here that actually likes Tris Botley? My pet crackpot is that he will end up with Missandei.

I apologise for adding nothing of substance to the discussion. I read your posts and they are all great ... I will try harder the next time I post, I promise.

[clover]

Quote

   And, by the Seven, am I the only one here that actually likes Tris Botley?   

Quote by Buckwheat

I'm not sure if I like him or feel sorry for him. He loves a girl in his mind that doesn't exist. He can't handle Asha. Very one-sided here.

I think it is different with the Hound. He cares for Sansa and still recognizes what he thinks are her faults. Some he is right about, others I think he secretly loves but is afraid of because it takes him back to that place he thought he left after the burns, and some he is wrong about. But with some of the ones he thinks are her youth, nonsense, and idealism, in order for her to get a bit tougher, he totally schools her, in a gruff way, true, but... And she learns and takes some of it to heart and good use when she leaves and goes with LF.

Edited by clover, 20 February 2012 - 02:50 PM.

[Rapsie]

littlespider, on 20 February 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

Nah. In ye olden days, before there were helicopter hunts, farmers used to leave bitches in heat tied out in the yard so that male wolves would sniff them out and mate with them.

When canines mate they kind of get stuck together for a while. So when the male wolf was stuck to the bitch the farmer would shoot the wolf.

Seriously? That's really bloody cruel. Poor bloody wolves.

Edit: 's made that into that's!

Edited by Rapsie, 20 February 2012 - 02:50 PM.

[clover]

Although a part of me always makes me wonder if at first he is picking her apart and trying too hard to find fault so he can get over how much he wants her. And it doesn't work out that well for him.

[littlespider]

Rapsie, on 20 February 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

Seriously? That's really bloody cruel. Poor bloody wolves.

Edit: 's made that into that's!

Yep. Welcome to 'Murka. Great appreciators or natural wildlife, we are.

Edited by littlespider, 20 February 2012 - 02:56 PM.