414 replies to this topic

[Starbird]

Buckwheat, on 20 February 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

She has none of these anymore: Winterfell is burned and she does not feel at home in the Vale. Both her parents and all of her siblings are dead, as far as she knows, and the news of Jon's death will spread soon too. She never had much connection to the Tully side of the family, aunt Lysa is dead, she does not feel close to cousin Robert. Septa Mordane is dead. Jeyne Poole too, as far as she knows. She probably thinks everybody she had any connection to in Wineterfell - Old Nan, Beth Cassell, servants and their children - are dead. She trusted nobody in KL after Eddard's execution, so she had no connection to anybody, except for the Hound. Dontos is dead, she was wary of the Tyrells even when they wanted her to marry Willas, Littlefinger kind of annoys her. Is the Hound the last one for a very long time now that she has felt any sort of connection to? Will he learn her how to feel some (probably very weird) sort of friendship/gentleness/psychical connection to anybody?

And, by the Seven, am I the only one here that actually likes Tris Botley? My pet crackpot is that he will end up with Missandei.

I apologise for adding nothing of substance to the discussion. I read your posts and they are all great ... I will try harder the next time I post, I promise.

Agreed but, at the time of the BBB, Lysa was alive and the Riverun crew was still in tact. Sansa might not have known them but they were still kin who would have taken her in (or would have been expected to take her in). She had relatives out in the world and a place she could go, were she able to travel at will. Sandor didn't have even that tenuous support system. This is why his "relationship" with Sansa is so important to him.

And, yes, you're the only one who likes Tris Botely. Kidding. Tris is a doormat. No self respecting woman wants a man without a backbone.

[Buckwheat]

clover, on 20 February 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

Quote by Buckwheat

I'm not sure if I like him or feel sorry for him. He loves a girl in his mind that doesn't exist. He can't handle Asha. Very one-sided here.

I think it is different with the Hound. He cares for Sansa and still recognizes what he thinks are her faults. Some he is right about, others I think he secretly loves but is afraid of because it takes him back to that place he thought he left after the burns, and some he is wrong about. But with some of the ones he thinks are her youth, nonsense, and idealism, in order for her to get a bit tougher, he totally schools her, in a gruff way, true, but... And she learns and takes some of it to heart and good use when she leaves and goes with LF.

I like Tris and feel pity for him at the same time.

I think Sandor actually sees first Sansa's faults and only then realises her good characteristics. At first he just thought she was a stupid naive spoiled girl with her head full of songs. Only later he started to realise than being compassionate, for example, can be good and not only a thing knights do to get respect in society - possibly he realised that after Sansa spoke for Dontos. I do not think that he exactly knew what Sansa was about at the moment, he only did not want to have to beat her, so he sided with her. Then he realised that saving him was good just because ... well, it was not sure what I am rambling about myself ...

[Caro99]

welcome to the thread thrice the hound! i love clueless but i  never would've thought of compairing alicia silverstone's character with sandor but you're right, how funny that the two people (regardless from the opposite personality issue) that come from two totally diffrent backgrounds and eras can still managed to react similarly to the same situation.
and raspie, i sincerley hope we ar e not making this up in our heads. grrm can't be that cruel to give us so many subtle hints only to let nothing happen between them. and i know it's an adpatation but i'm really looking forward to the way san/san will be portrayed in season 2 cause i'm sure george must have talked to sophie and rory about this so if we see them hopefully portraying all the thing's we've come to speculate about them, then we have one more big clue to them at least meeting up again   i mean, it happened with alan rickman portraying snape. he was one of the only few people who kmew how his story would end and thanks to that he wa sable to play the character very well, so maybe this will happen again

Edited by Caro99, 20 February 2012 - 04:37 PM.

[brashcandy]

I wish more readers would look at how painfully obvious Martin can be when he wants to show that a woman has no interest in a man, as is the case of Asha/Tris, Sansa/Tyrion, Cat/LF, Cersei/Robert. GRRM doesn't mix words when it comes to highlighting that the men in these relationships had no chance, or with Cersei and Robert, it was pretty much doomed from the start. San/San is not like that. Way too much ambiguity and mixed feelings, and touching and memories going on for people to look at that relationship and claim: I don't get it.

@Buckwheat: I agree with you that he saw her as a naive little girl at first, and wanted to wake her up to the real world. But I think after a while he began to see that although the real world was shitty, there were some genuinely good things about it - Sansa's compassion, dignity etc, and so instead of just telling her to accept the way things are, he actively started to help her navigate it, and ended up making it better for her as a result.

[Caro99]

About if something else (however innocent) might have happened in the bedroom scene. Starbird, I totally liked your comments and wanted to agree with you so much, but after careful consideration I have to admit that it is better just to leave the scene as it is. George had two opportunities in the same chapter for a kiss to happen (when he pulls her close and she closes her eyes, and after the cupping of the cheek) and still nothing of the sort happens, so then nothing like that was meant to happen. The reason may be cause something wrong might have happened and it wasn’t the right time as neither sandor nor sansa were ready (he is after all, really immature in a lot of stuff, and a bit depressing man (adorable though ) and she is really just so young in her mind that even if her body was growing up and might have responded to it at the moment, so the time was not right. I was pondering if after she touches his face if maybe he could have leaned closer and then decided against it, or having them pressing their cheeks together, and other stuff, but I finally remembered that George wrote that scene brilliantly and so nothing I can picture can really capture the essence of these two characters. it's like they weren't ready to reach that point. i came up with this: they were like barely entering level 2 of their relationship, and if they had kissed or had a deeper envounter, then they woud've just jumped to lever 6 or something and then it wouldn't have worked out. they would have lost the levels in between and the beauty they could have provided, along with a strength to keep them togehter no matter what for sharing a developing "aquaintance!.
i know you just talked about kissing gently, not having sex, but i wanted to write this example down
& of course it would be hard for both of them to travel together. I also think sansa wouldn’t be complaining about riding all day long and not bathing every day, but if they came to an inn where the beds were covered with lice, then I would really feel sorry for her. and though I think it would be cute to have sandor trying to provide what comforts he could to make it easier on sansa, all in all, it wouldn’t have been an easy ride.

Edited by Caro99, 20 February 2012 - 09:34 PM.

[Caro99]

And Clover, I also love the scene where sandor is just staring at something or someone intently and I want to bet its sansa, of course! It might be the serpentine steps, or the roof scene or sandor hearing someone coming only to find out it’s his Little Bird, or a totally new scene the producers came up with, but I just can’t wait for season 2! speculation and anticipation are doing their jobs well in driving me mad- april! About one month and 10 days to go, girls! & talking about sandor’s scenes, have you watched the new Making Game of Thrones: Invitation to the Set video? It just came out today and near the first 20 seconds we see Tyrion arriving in KL to greet Joffrey and sansa. I paused the scene and I finally saw sandor standing in the background of the royal box where sansa is. And it’s just like in the book! Sandor is behind myrcella, and can look directly at sansa, and there’s also tommen. Rory looks so tall <3 I just wonder if this is after or before sandor plays in the tournament of gnats..?

Edited by Caro99, 20 February 2012 - 09:37 PM.

[Starbird]

Caro99, on 20 February 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

About if something else (however innocent) might have happened in the bedroom scene. Starbird, I totally liked your comments and wanted to agree with you so much, but after careful consideration I have to admit that it is better just to leave the scene as it is.  .....  George wrote that scene brilliantly and so nothing I can picture can really capture the essence of these two characters. it's like they weren't ready to reach that point.

LOL I couldn't convince you, huh? I'm actually fine with the scene as is. It just makes my greedy little shipper heart want more, but that's what makes the scene work! I agree with you that skipping to a more advanced relationship level would sap some of the sweetness from it. Had Sansa been older, a kiss would have been nice. As is, ::squirms::. I'm just dying to see them reunited. George has been so careful about building this relationship up that my hopes are high for when they finally meet up again.

[brashcandy]

We talk a lot about that scene and whether or not a kiss should have gone down, but I think it's telling that Sandor never asks for a kiss. In all of her other relationships, men have either been begging for a kiss (Dontos), or forcing her to kiss them (LF). She was even forced to pucker up to kiss Tyrion on her wedding day, and I think Joffrey may have snatched one from her at that point. But Mr. Clegane is above such ordinary shenanigans And I think GRRM is deliberately keeping their relationship objectively pure, whilst dirtying it up in other ways: through the unkiss, Sansa's dream of him climbing into her bed, and Sandor saying he should have fucked her bloody. By the time they hook up, I think he wants readers to want it as bad as the characters will.

[Caro99]

Yes, i totally understand the shipper longing to want them to kiss! Sighs, oh well.
There’s been a lot of talk as to how the cupping of the cheek was special since it was sansa reaching out to sandor, telling him in a way that she sympathaized with him. The connection they have here always makes me happy when i am reading the scene where she and tyrion are coming or returning from joff’s wedding and sansa feels tyrion watching her, but she just doesn’t know what it is that he wants and why he won’t look away. She mentions somethings laong the lines of him looking like a starving child begginf for food, but she had none to give him. Well, she did have fod enough for sandor, and she never wonders what it is that always makes him return to her. With him, she does know how to comfort him whether it be their first serious talk in the tourney grounds, or in the black of night in her bedroom.

Regarding the teats comment sandor makes, I don’t think it was pervy either. He jsut sort of stated the fact for both of them, and it never makes me cringe the way LF does when he places a mockingbird on sansa’s breast. Or even the way robert must have leered at women. And i don’t think sansa minded it that much either. We always know when sansa is feeling uncomfortable with male presence, (marmillion, LF, tyrion, the stable boys staring at her chest & even older men and how they look at her) but she never remarks sandor making her feel uncomfortable with the way he looked at her. Maybe this is cause she was younger, but she’s had time to mature now and she still does not resent sandor relating this topic. Unlike with marmillion, who even after he’s dead, i think sansa still recalls the insolent way he looked, talked and touched her. i think she is comparing him to littlefinger here.

[Caro99]

brashcandy, on 20 February 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

She was even forced to pucker up to kiss Tyrion on her wedding day. But Mr. Clegane is above such ordinary shenanigans And I think GRRM is deliberately keeping their relationship objectively pure, whilst dirtying it up in other ways: through the unkiss, Sansa's dream of him climbing into her bed, and Sandor saying he should have fucked her bloody. By the time they hook up, I think he wants readers to want it as bad as the characters will.

the only good thing of her wedding for me is another confirmation of her having feelings for him: she's in the middle of her wedding and just as she kisses her new husband she thinks of sandor of all people! i know, she wasn't thinking "oh i wish it was him" but "he is even ugler than the hound" but for me the mere fact that she thinks of him, well, it's just cute!

[Elba the Intoner]

This thread is moving so fast I can barely keep up.  Here are some thoughts from the discussion from the last few pages -

Child of Summer's wooing manual was hilarious! ROTFL!

Marya Stone's post about how people just skimming Sansa's chapters are missing so much and it's their loss that they don't see these little teaspoonfuls we are being fed was just beautifully written.  Marya I am in awe of you!  I was thinking that also applies to the comments that I have seen so many people make about how Sansa is so dumb throughout all the books.  Seriously, are they reading what I am reading?  I guess I should also post this comment over on the Sansa character arc reread.

About the bedroom scene going down the way it did and why Sansa didn't leave with the Hound then, I agree with most of you that it was perfectly written and wouldn't change a thing.  I got teary eyed myself when I realized the Hound was crying!  Part of me did want Sansa to go off with him, but deep down I know that it just would have taken away something from the relationship.  It is so compelling because she didn't go with him.

However, I must say that I find myself imagining what Littlefinger's reaction would have been had Sansa in fact gone with the Hound.  He who plans 3 steps ahead and thinks he he has the perfect set up to get Sansa would never have seen it coming!  I imagine him just standing there dumbfounded and saying WTF!!!  Oh how I hope that when Sansa takes LF down, and I do believe she will, that just before he meets his end he learns that Sansa wants to be with Sandor.  Please GRRM, if you give me nothing else, please just give me that!

[Thrice the Hound]

Rapsie, on 20 February 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

Welcome and great point. Are we all crazy? Generally a lot of other posters are very dismissive of a possible Sandor / Sansa storyline, yet almost everyone on this thread has read something in the text that made them think there was something going on. Are we just making this up in our heads, or is the fact that Sansa is not particularly liked, led to a number of other readers skim reading her chapters and not taking in what is happening in them. Afterall most Sandor conversations happen in her chapters and even after they are separated they mention each other in each chapter they are in.

I agree. I think there is a lot of shadowing going on which we maybe picking up because of all the symbolisim rather than glaring fact.... There is something that hit me in the face like a punch to the nose last night because of your summary of the ACOK Sansa 4 that might answer some questions. Maybe...

I keep getting told I am reading too much into things but...I went a bit hard last night on the reading of all the threads so heaps of stuff is still fresh in my mind. (This is all Rapsie's fault with her kick butt summary) I happened to have just finished reading the battle at blackwater when I read your summary and this knocked me out- This is like bumper colour matching thing. It honestly is easier if you switch between the chapters pages.

Quote

but the Hound had cut the man’s arm off and pushed her back into her saddle and then proceeded to leap at her attackers. When the mob begins to run away from the Hound, he laughs and his terrible face is for a moment transformed.

Sansa then makes herself look hard at Sandor.

From your summary on Sansa re-read

This is the section from ACOK 4

• She made herself look at that face now, really look. It was only courteous, and a lady must never forget her courtesies (remember the unseemly for the tears with Dontos, this is important hold that in your head till me move on). The scars are not the worst part, nor even the way his mouth twitches, it’s his eyes, she had never seen eyes full of anger. “ I should have come to you after,” she said haltingly. “To thank you, for … for saving me you were so brave....” her voice trailed off.

This is the section from the Bedroom

• “I’ll have that song, florian and Jonquil you said.” He had his dagger poised at her throat “sing little bird, sing for your life.” Please don’t kill me <snip> he twisted the point, pushing into her throat, and she almost closed her eyes again, but then she remembered. It was not Florian and Jonquil, but it was a song, Her voice sounded thin and tremulous in her ears.

Shortly there after he pulls the sword on the parrapet.....What do you think, I just see a connection here. I think we know why Sansa hid in that cloak and wasn’t trembling in her boots when he left. I always thought it was weird she didn’t burst into tears after that. There seems to be a marked absence in emotion at certain times and then too much emotion at others (I mean descriptions of)

I know it looks random like that but if you do what I did (all Rapsie's fault) and read the chapters together. Yes I mean flickback and forth between them by section it seems to fill in blanks.

Sansa's 'fairy tale/song' is the prayer of the mother

• “I’ll have that song, florian and Jonquil you said.” He had his dagger poised at her throat “sing little bird, sing for your life.” Please don’t kill me (more of the same sentiment, freaking out totally) he twisted the point, pushing into her throat, and she almost closed her eyes again, but then she remembered. It was not Florian and Jonquil, but it was a song, Her voice sounded thin and tremulous in her ears.

Gentle Mother, font of mercy,
Save our sons from war, we pray,
Stay the swords and stay the arrows,
Let them know a better day.
Gentle Mother, strength of women,
Help our daughters through this fray,
Soothe the wrath and tame the fury,
Teach us all a kinder way
She had forgotten the other verses. When her voice trailed off (she feared he might kill her) after a moment the hound took the knife from her throat. "Little bird" Instinct and cupping of face here.   <insert ripping off cloak here with dumping it> Retreat. Hiding under his cloak.


Sandor's 'fairy tale/song' on the parapett

• He laid the edge of his longsword against her neck, just under her ear Sansa could feel the sharpness of the steel. “I killed my first man at twelve. I’ve lost count of how many I’ve killed since then. High lords with old names, fat rich men dressed in velvet, knights puffed up like bladders with their honors, yes and women and children too-they’re all meat, and I’m the bucher. Let them have their lands and their god and their gold. Let them have their sers.” Sandor Clegane spat at her feet to show what he thought of that. “So long as I have this,” he said, lifting the sword from her throat, “there is no   man   on earth I need fear.” (<snip relevant but not so important stuff said>) "Only cowards fight with fire" . <insert entire coversation leading to the next part here>Wordless the fled. She was afraid of Sandor Clegane... and yet, some part of her wished that Ser Dontos had a little of the Hound's ferocity. There are gods, she told herself, and there are true knights too. All the stories can't be lies.

I also think that there maybe some proof that Sansa was warging/calling Sandor in the Godswood with Dontos and I think she may have had a bran inspired green dream. (this is still Rapsie's fault ) afterall whe was 'Lightheaded and feaverish' it made me think of Sandor and being out the gate in that fire. (still Rapsie's fault)

• Sansa dug her nails into her hand she could feel the fear in her tummy twisting and pinching growing worse every day. <Myrcella leaving mentioned> Dark suffocating dreams that woke her in the black of night struggling for breath.. She could hear people screaming at her screaming like animals. They had hemmed her in and thrown filth at her and tried to pull her off her horse.

Try not to be afraid he said!

The IMP meant to fight, and a city that fought could expect no mercy at all.

“If you thanked him for making you a fool, he’d make you a knight again,” Sansa said sharply.”

• “No” a shadow detached it’self from the wall to become a tall man in dark grey armour Sandor Clegane wrenched off his helm with both hands and let it fall to the ground.  (dark and suffocating inside the helm) The steel was scorched and dented. The left ear of the snarling hound sheered off (Myrcella’s injury Shadowing here but don’t let that distract you) A gash above one eye had sent a wash of blood down across the hounds old burn scars, masking half his face (more myrcella shadowing again don’t let it distract you)

Cleganes breath came ragged “Bugger that. And you”

A swordsman on the riverfront says “We have been out three times half our men are killed or hurt. Wildfire bursting around us horses screaming like men and men like horses…."Did you think we hired you to fight in a tourney? Shall I bring you a nice iced milk and a bowl of raspberries? No? Then get on your fucking horse. You to Dog."

He is afraid Tyrion realised shocked.

   “They say I am half a man, what does that make you?” (what did you think this was a tourney should I feed you raspberries)

THAT all then ties into "Bloody Imp I should have killed him years ago."

Now tell me I am crazy and that is all just coincidence...I am expecting to be told that. Also doesn't sandor descibe fire a filth when he is with arya? There is more but I thought I'd keep it to just this for now.


OOPS I just realised I put this in the wrong thread. Sorry

Also I chased this idea down because what is uber obvious is her constant recollection of the Riot at really random times. But when you read the chapters side by side kind of overlaying them it makes sense as to why she is doing that. That is my point with the match the colour thing. I am crazy.

Edited by Thrice the Hound, 21 February 2012 - 01:23 AM.

[Fragile Bird]

The movie Blade Runner has been on in the background as I've been reading various threads, and there's a scene between Deckard (Harrison Ford) and Rachael (the replicant, played by Sean Young), where Rachael tries to leave his apartment and he stops her, and pushes her against the window blinds.  He tries to kiss her, and she says she can't, and he orders her to say "kiss me", and then orders her to say "I want you", twice.

The scene is so sexy, because there's this power imbalance between them based on knowledge and self-awareness and self-confidence, and you know he wants her and you know she wants to want him but she's afraid.  Even though she's a replicant and therefore could kick his ass to the moon.

And the words were like priming the pump, because once she's said I want you, twice, she starts to say more, I want your hands all over me (or something like that) and so on.

I sort of see Sandor and Sansa reaching that point at some time.  I don't see them just falling into each other's arms (even though they really want to).  I think one of them is going to have to make a move to bridge that last bit of gap between them.  Is it going to be Sandor saying to Sansa, tell me you want me, little bird.  Or will Sansa finally say to Sandor, hey you over there, put down that sword and yield to me.  I  think I like that scenario, the thought Sansa becomes the self-confident Stark that can tell a bannerman, you belong to me.

Edited by Fragile Bird, 21 February 2012 - 01:17 AM.

[Fragile Bird]

@Thrice the Hound

Yes.  Exactly.  They are connected and sympatico in many ways.

[Buckwheat]

brashcandy, on 20 February 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

I wish more readers would look at how painfully obvious Martin can be when he wants to show that a woman has no interest in a man, as is the case of Asha/Tris, Sansa/Tyrion, Cat/LF, Cersei/Robert. GRRM doesn't mix words when it comes to highlighting that the men in these relationships had no chance, or with Cersei and Robert, it was pretty much doomed from the start. San/San is not like that. Way too much ambiguity and mixed feelings, and touching and memories going on for people to look at that relationship and claim: I don't get it.

@Buckwheat: I agree with you that he saw her as a naive little girl at first, and wanted to wake her up to the real world. But I think after a while he began to see that although the real world was shitty, there were some genuinely good things about it - Sansa's compassion, dignity etc, and so instead of just telling her to accept the way things are, he actively started to help her navigate it, and ended up making it better for her as a result.

That is what I wanted to say, only I did not know how to articulate it. Thank you.

Elba the Intoner, on 20 February 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

However, I must say that I find myself imagining what Littlefinger's reaction would have been had Sansa in fact gone with the Hound.  He who plans 3 steps ahead and thinks he he has the perfect set up to get Sansa would never have seen it coming!  I imagine him just standing there dumbfounded and saying WTF!!!  Oh how I hope that when Sansa takes LF down, and I do believe she will, that just before he meets his end he learns that Sansa wants to be with Sandor.  Please GRRM, if you give me nothing else, please just give me that!

"Only Sandor"? You think something like this?

[brashcandy]

My wish for LF is that he has a nervous breakdown just like the one Lysa has when she saw him kissing Sansa. I want him to watch San/San kissing passionately, i.e. realise how "into" a kiss Sansa can get when she's actually interested in the man she's kissing, and not having to be dutiful. Oh I long for this.

[Rapsie]

brashcandy, on 21 February 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

My wish for LF is that he has a nervous breakdown just like the one Lysa has when she saw him kissing Sansa. I want him to watch San/San kissing passionately, i.e. realise how "into" a kiss Sansa can get when she's actually interested in the man she's kissing, and not having to be dutiful. Oh I long for this.

Despite liking both Sandor and Sansa and hoping their relationship is part of a future arc because of everything written so far, a big part of me wants them to get together just to see LF and Tyrion's reaction. The reaction of others could also be amusing!

[Elba the Intoner]

Buckwheat and Brash - yes, yes, that's it.  Sansa says to LF, "there is only one man that I will ever love", LF is all like "Yes, my darling" stepping closer to her, and she says, "Only Sandor!"  Goes over and kisses him passionately.  LF goes crazy and loses it and runs out the moon door himself.

[Fragile Bird]

Here's that Blade Runner love scene in full, not just the push against the window, mainly because a young Harrison Ford was so GD hot.  That's the romantic bodice ripper scenario Brash Candy does not want to see (or at least, not yet) but it works for me....

http://youtu.be/IjO8wsjPqbg


Edit:  Oh yeah, forgot to mention - Sean Young takes down her hair.  In the HBO series I always see Sansa's hair in that braided maiden look.  Can you imagine her taking her hair down like this in front of Sandor?  (This is why men have abandoned us in this thread.  Sigh.)

Edited by Fragile Bird, 21 February 2012 - 11:44 AM.

[brashcandy]

Fragile bird! Thank you posting that, seriously hot!!   And I agree, it would definitely fit for a San/San love scene in the future. It captures the whole "I want you, but I can't say I want you before I know you want me" vibe going on.