414 replies to this topic

[fossegrim]

Quoting from thread 17:

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MaryaStone, on 14 February 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

Tyrion can make fun even of himself, I don't think Sandor can make fun of himself, his sense of humour is dark, not fun and sparkling like Tyrion's.

someone else said: uhm, but Sandor had some kind of distance to himself (Dondarrion, you are uglier then me now)

I half disagree. Acknowledging that his face is hideous is a very surface way of self deprecation because he can't hide it, and fits in with how he mocks pretty knights and so on. It is classical macho bravado to act like he doesn't care about it. I believe he's actually echoing what others have said to/about him earlier? So he can make fun of that because getting angry would be even more pathetic. But you don't see him make fun of the non-surface areas about himself, such as his fear of fire/scar story, which is a secret until the night of the blackwater.

All this talk of nicknames and languages is making me positively itch to translate the books into my language. I read bits of the prologue and it was regretfully stilted, to the point where I actually liked the subtitles for the show better. It's sad because the books really had the potential to be great in Norwegian.

Edited by fossegrim, 14 February 2012 - 06:22 PM.

[Villemo]

Woman of War, on 14 February 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Will Sandor "do the right thing" for Sansa because he perceives it as right or because the right thing happens to be Sansa's side? What if Sansa herself chooses, maybe as willing pupil of Littlefinger, to take the darker road - will Sandor follow her into moral corruption and defend her with his life, no matter against whom or what? Or would Sandor be on the morally right side in the end, and then you may have the conflict that the "right" side is not Sansa's side? What if his little bird grows up, loses her purity and makes erotic decisions that do not include Sandor but maybe a beautiful false knight like Aegon? Knife through throat?

these are very good question, especially this one
I have no idea what is the answer. Sandor is impressed by her innocence, but I really have no idea what will happen, when they would meet in the future and she will become a self-serving player. At the side of Littlefinger Sansa may change in a cynical, perhaps cruel, disillusioned woman. Ok, they will be similiar, but will they be able to communicate and understand each other?

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Other possibility: Is there still any erotic desire from Sandor's side ? Hasn't this perhaps died with the Hound, when he finally ended at the Quiet Isle? I wonder. Isn't it part of of him now to have overcome this?

I have 'a language' question - I think, that he cant talk about sex/sexuality. He talked to/or about (his) little bird and used word as 'teats', 'fool and his cunt' or 'fucking bloody'. I regard this as a form of self-defense (very specific self-defense), I read this words as vulgar, but I'm not sure if I goot it understand
So, what do you think, Sandor can't or doesn't want to speak gently?

[bgona]

Well, it is a kind of humour (making fun of his appearance, also Tyrion used it when he made the rhyme: "and to the poor Tyrion got his nose cut"). And I like it. He could choose not to have and be angry and serious and type of not mock at me or I will cut you type (even worse that he already is).

[bgona]

I have forgot! Thanks Villemo to bring the comment of Woman of War!

We don´t know what will happen (and that it is so exciting!). My shot: yes, they´ll keep sexual desires. A possible hint: Stranger the horse, priest couldn´t made tame. Not only at war. As his owner as well.

-----------------

Villemo Sandor is rude, vulgar, but the important is under those words. They are also a shield or armour. A way that he got accostume to treat people.

[brashcandy]

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I have 'a language' question - I think, that he cant talk about sex/sexuality. He talked to/or about (his) little bird and used word as 'teats', 'fool and his cunt' or 'fucking bloody'. I regard this as a form of self-defense (very specific self-defense), I read this words as vulgar, but I'm not sure if I goot it understand
So, what do you think, Sandor can't or doesn't want to speak gently?

This is a great question Villemo hmmm, I think his speech on sex and everything related to it is necessarily harsh because to him, intimacy is more akin to taking and possessing. It's similar to his outlook on knights. These men are hypocrites, believing themselves to be honourable, but he has no such pretensions, and he's gonna stick to calling himself a dog, no matter how base that might sound to others. Same thing with sex. Sansa may want to believe in the wonderful romance of Florian and Jonquil, but Sandor is there to tell her, it was just about a fool and his cunt. He isn't going to employ flowery phrases for something that he thinks is elemental and straightforward and not worth bothering about. I have a feeling that Sandor distilled all those songs and romances down to their bare bones, namely sex, and he would have felt it was only a matter of time before Sansa realised what they were all about too.

And bottomline - Sandor is an uncouth man, battle hardened and cynical in his outlook - no surprise that his speech reflects this.

[Villemo]

fossegrim, on 14 February 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

I half disagree. Acknowledging that his face is hideous is a very surface way of self deprecation because he can't hide it, and fits in with how he mocks pretty knights and so on. It is classical macho bravado to act like he doesn't care about it. I believe he's actually echoing what others have said to/about him earlier? So he can make fun of that because getting angry would be even more pathetic. But you don't see him make fun of the non-surface areas about himself, such as his fear of fire/scar story, which is a secret until the night of the blackwater.

uhm, you are right, Sandor doesn't care about appearance and and he try to doesn't worry about the comments (it is the best solution). His sense of humour is dark, but I'm pretty sure that he would be able to mock of himself too

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It's sad because the books really had the potential to be great in Norwegian.

these books had potential to be great in any language

brashcandy, on 14 February 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

He isn't going to employ flowery phrases for something that he thinks is elemental and straightforward and not worth bothering about.

one more thing: so probably all of Sandor's sexual experience is associated with brothels (cheap, I guess. I dont know why, but I'm pretty sure that he didn't visit Alataya or another courtesan)- maybe there is the answer? In cheap borthels people are rude and vulgar, so maybe he knows only these words...

[brashcandy]

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one more thing: so probably all of Sandor's sexual experience is associated with brothels (cheap, I guess. I dont know why, but I'm pretty sure that he didn't visit Alataya or another courtesan)- maybe there is the answer? In cheap borthels people are rude and vulgar, so maybe he knows only these words...

Where he picked up the words isn't hard to imagine, he is after all lowborn, and has spent his life around other rude and crude persons - prostitutes, fellow fighters etc. I think your original question was why he's so crude, since he's clearly able to vary his touch to communicate concern and care? Utltimately the man could probably talk like a high lord if he wanted to, he's been around enough of them and is the personal bodyguard of the prince. But he would likely consider that to be pretentious and fake, and he prefers his rough, but honest approach to speaking.

[MaryaStone]

Woman of War, on 14 February 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

  No, there I must have made a mistake: I do not think that Sandor is one of the less interesting characters otherwise I indeed would not post here.

You've made some interesting points in your post about Tyrion's characterization in the last book, which has me mystified. It feels as if GRRM was spoiling his own character, but I'll leave it for tomorrow because today I don't feel like discussing neither Tyrion nor morality.


You may disagree with me, but IMH Olenna or Mance Ryder are nothing but flat characters, as flat a the Mountain, Oberyn and Bronn. They serve their purpose, which is to keep the plot moving forward and nothing else. A writer needs to use archetypes (especially if the novel has as many characters as ASOIF), but people wouldn't talk about a flat character for so long and on so many threads.

We aren't the only ones who are mystified by the Hound and his relationship with Sansa. There is magic in this pairing, perhaps black magic but it's there. So many people can't be mistaken, there's something special to them. I don't agree that their interactions are a mere cliche, not at all. If it was as simple as that, everything would be crystal clear and everybody would see the same and agree on what it was about. This is not the case, this is good writing. Good writing always gives ground for multiple interpretations because it can be analyzed on several levels and has several layers. That's what literature is about. Something too obvious may be fun ( I can enjoy reading trash as much as anyone) but it is not good literature.

Like most modern women, I hate the idea of a damsel in distress who needs to be saved by a strong man, but I love the way GRRM portrayed this. She's not your usual pretty girl, waiting there to be rescued, and he's not, by any means, the typical candidate to turn into a hero.

At first, she's not likable, she makes obnoxious mistakes and makes us dislike her. She's even boring when compared to her prodigious sister, but she's the real round character, the convincing one, the one that evolves, while her sister hasn't evolved a tiny bit since the first book. As regards good characterization, and from the literary point of view, Sansa is a much better character, much more interesting. Arya's character is incredibly flat for a main character, extremely archetypical. She's also anachronistic, because she thinks like a modern teenager in a medieval-like context.

I enjoyed her adventures in the first book because her journey is fascinating (it's a horrible nightmare) and she witnesses the horrors of war, depicted in a crude but extremely interesting way. However, as a character, she's not very interesting. She's little more than a cartoonish tomboy.

I also liked her interactions with the Hound, as they were fun to read, but I didn't like them because of her, but because she gave us the chance to make sure that what we had suspected about him was right: that the Hound was brave, protective and respected his own code of honour in a tough basic way, without pretenses; that he was capable of mercy (towards the dying man) and also empathy (he tried to comfort Arya after the RW, in his clumsy way, but he tried).

In these chapters, I like him even more. I have to say that he's the interesting part of this pair. She's funny in her wild way, but nothing else. She may be less interesting than him because it's difficult for an adult to portray a child in a nuanced way, but Martin dared to introduce Sansa in an unsympathetic light and then showed us her slow convincing evolution. He was too obvious with Arya: She struggles, she fights and kills, she's brave to an unbelievable extent.

'Readers, you must like her', GRR seems to be shouting at us.'

'It's not necessary, George, we got it from minute one', that's me thinking far too often.

The badass pair Sandor and Arya make is every bit as cliched as his pairing with Sansa, even more so. It's something we've seen often enough. Click on the links and check for yourselves:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110413/

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The Badass and Child Duo in its purest form, occurs when a (usually) male badass takes it upon himself, out of goodness, interest, or circumstances beyond his control, to protect an orphaned, unrelated young (usually) girl.

http://tvtropes.org/...dassAndChildDuo

http://en.wikipedia....Kid_(1921_film)


I'm rather disappointed and I haven't been interested in Arya's chapters since she left the Hound. I don't care about the nasty sect she is being trained by and I find her chapters with the Quiet Man boring and extremely unconvincing. I used to like her chapters more but I've realised I was interested in her chapters only because of what I could see through her eyes: the Hound, the Mountain and his monstrous men, the horrors of war, creepy enigmatic Roose Bolton, Yoren and the NW retinue of outcasts. What we saw through her eyes was very interesting, but not her as a character. She is neither a rich character nor does she present several facets. She's as flat as a character can be, and now that the place where she is and the people that she meets aren't interesting, I find her chapters really boring.

I didn't mean to write this, because I don't usually choose to say which characters I find disappointing, because I don't see the point. I prefer to write about the ones I consider interesting. I guess I wrote this because her character was brought up and I felt I needed to say this.

For instance, I find Roose Bolton and Tywin Lannister interesting, though I don't like them. They're the kind of characters one loves to hate and they've never bored me.

As for finding characters sexy, we were joking, having fun. We like Sandor, but not because our men are tall and have black hair. We like him for many reasons as we've explained over and over. If other people don't like him, I don't care in the least. It's their loss, not mine.

By the way, I don't find Oberyn sexy, I don't feel attracted to men who are so open as regards sex, I prefer a bit of a mystery and a bit of a challenge. I don't usually find womanizers like Robert and Theon, or cocky guys like Jaime, attractive either.

I was in for a surprise when I found out about Jaime's fidelity and when I realised that I liked Theon as a character as much as I despised but pitied him as a man. Theon is a multifaceted character, a character I do like.

As for Jaime, I never liked him more than in that scene with Catelyn when he was kept captive. Beautiful disgusting bastard!

There was a shocking twisted chemistry there, in that filthy dungeon . I thought Cat wanted the sword to kill him or maim him and I would have clapped her for that ( he deserved it ) but I couldn't help to agree with him when he said:

'There are no men like me, only me.'

I loved to hate the cocky bastard, but I was attracted by his recklessness and his charm. Now that he wants to become chivalrous, I don't like him half as much.

Edited by MaryaStone, 15 February 2012 - 07:56 AM.

[brashcandy]

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I'm a bit disappointed and I haven't been interested in Arya's chapters since she left the Hound. I don't care about the nasty sect she is being trained by and I find her chapters with the Quiet Man boring and extremely unconvincing. I used to like her chapters more but I've realised I was interested in her chapters only because of what I could see through her eyes: the Hound, the Mountain and his monstrous men, the horrors of war, creepy enigmatic Roose Bolton, Yoren and the NW retinue of outcasts. What we saw through her eyes was very interesting, but not herself as a character, she's not rich nor does present several facets. She's as flat as any character can be, and now that the place where she is and the people that she meets aren't interesting, I find her chapters really boring.

Arya cannot touch Sansa when it comes to character development and nuance, and you're absolutely right: her journey with the Hound was interesting for what it revealed about HIM. Arya isn't half so compelling.

Edited by brashcandy, 14 February 2012 - 08:52 PM.

[Bloodhound]

Marya, I agree that Arya is a fairly flat character, much flatter than Sansa. However, I'm not sure it's entirely fair to compare them at this stage, as Sansa is considerably older than Arya. Sansa is an adolescent who is on her way to becoming a responsible adult. She can reasonably be expected to change at this stage of her life. By contrast, Arya has barely reached adolescence yet. I think she's pretty interesting for a prepubescent girl, even if there's not much character development to speak of. Her real character development will likely come when she reaches Sansa's age.

As for Jaime, I agree that he's lost a bit of swagger since he lost his hand -- understandably so, since much of his swagger derived from that hand. He's lost the fabulous self-confidence and deliriously nasty one-liners, so brilliantly delivered by Nikolaj Coster-Waldau in the HBO adaptation. He's definitely becoming a rounder character, though. Personally, I rather like his new-found humility and rebellion against his past. It may not be as sexy as the old Jaime swagger, but it does make me want to root for him (in the non-Australian sense of the word). I'm also enjoying his bromance with Ser Ilyn. I look forward to seeing that relationship develop almost as much as I'm looking forward to seeing what happens to Sandor and Sansa!

------

Now, if I may go off on a tangent for a moment, all the talk of translation issues has made me very curious about an aspect of the books not at all related to Sandor Clegane -- the translation of the Reek rhymes. As a former literary translator, I find myself fascinated by the 'My-name-is-Reek,-it-rhymes-with-meek-/-leek-/-weak-/-freak-/-bleak' rhymes. I keep wondering how I would go about translating those, the problem being, of course, that in Dutch (the language I used to translate books into), there is no word for 'stench' which rhymes with any of the rhyme words Martin picked. And since many of those rhymes reflect the context, that poses a problem. How did the Spanish / Hungarian / German / Norwegian / Polish / Serbian translators deal with that? Did they come up with other rhyme words which somehow matched the context? If so, what words? Sorry for the off-topic question, but I've been wondering about this for a while, and I'm genuinely curious to see the solutions other translators came up with. I'm especially interested in the German and Norwegian translations, since they'll probably be close to what the Dutch translator would have come up with. Thanks in advance for enlightening me!

(Or should I create a separate thread for this?)

Edited by Bloodhound, 14 February 2012 - 10:08 PM.

[brashcandy]

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(Or should I create a separate thread for this?)

You could if you really wanted to, but the Sandor threads seem to be made up of multiple nationalities, so I'm sure you'll get some satisfactory answers soon.

Edited by brashcandy, 14 February 2012 - 09:27 PM.

[Caro99]

wow, a lot of things were discussed in a day..! hard to catch up but finally here's what struck me the most:
Sandor & Tyrion are as diffrent from each other as day and night, and yet both of them have things in common, like the outcast rejection they receive and many more things, but @fossegrim's words let me wondering if Sandor embraced his "Hound" character because he wanted it that way or cause he was for some reason encountering mockery with the name and so he decided to do the "embrace whatever names men call you so they can never be used against you" speech tyrion gives jon..? i sort of thought at first that he was okay with the name, but when either joff called him dog or after the 2nd book where peasants call him dog, i didn't feel like he liked that nickname very much.

And as for the way Sandor talks to Sansa, yes he was very rude and used words which probably weren't to most high-born ladies liking, like cunt or teats. but that's just the way he speaks: roughly. i can sort of forgive him for those things cause i know he didn't say them particularly while he was w/ sansa to make her feel bad or something. of course all the other KG memebers and even Jaime used those words, but it really stands out  here that SAndor never pretends to be anything he isn't around sansa, since we don't see him putting on a show and trying to be all pleasant and creating nice small talk.
Villemo, yes i don't imagine him going to Chataya's either. not even after he had the $ from the tourney.

And the topic of LF and Sandor was metioned earlier by Elba the Intoner, i think?? well, a lot of good comparisons and points were talked about, and they got me to thinking that another reason why i prefer Sandor to LF is cause we know that even though it broke his heart when he thought that sansa didn't want to leave with him, he didn't kidnapp her or anything of the sort. and if they ever meet again i bet that though he wouldn't like it much, he would respect once more her decision to chose for herself. but with LF we have him clinging to the utopia he created for himself when young and whenever things don't happen like he wanted he still manages to find explinations as to why he lost the girl: like, "it wasn't cat's fault that she didn't marry me. she was a tully and had a duty." and even when he may suspect that cat really doesn't care about him anymore and loves her husband, he still thinks, "Well at least i'll get her daughter" or something of the sort. he just won't let go and that is sort of annoying. sandor on the other hand was at first forced to give up his ideals of knights and innocence, but at least he grew out of it (not in the best of ways, but he did) and can now let the girl he loves choose what to do, while LF just doesn't seem the type to willingly respect either sansa or cat's choices...  
hope i made sense

Edited by Caro99, 15 February 2012 - 07:35 PM.

[Bloodhound]

brashcandy, on 14 February 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

You could if you really wanted to, but the Sandor threads seem to be made up of multiple nationalities, so I'm sure you'll get some satisfactory answers soon.

I've actually created a separate thread, so as not to hijack the Sandor thread. It's here:

http://asoiaf.wester...is-reek-rhymes/

[Elba the Intoner]

Caro99, on 14 February 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:

And the topic of LF and Sandor was metioned earlier by Elba the Intoner, i think?? well, a lot of good comparisons and points were talked about, and they got me to thinking that another reason why i prefer Sandor to sansa is cause we know that even though it broke his heart when he thought that sansa didn't want to leave with him, he didn't kidnapp her or anything of the sort. and if they ever meet again i bet that though he wouldn't like it much, he would respect once more her decision to chose for herself. but with LF we have him clinging to the utopia he created for himself when young and whenever things don't happen like he wanted he still manages to find explinations as to why he lost the girl: like, "it wasn't cat's fault that she didn't marry me. she was a tully and had a duty." and even when he may suspect that cat really doesn't care about him anymore and loves her husband, he still thinks, "Well at least i'll get her daughter" or something of the sort. he just won't let go and that is sort of annoying. sandor on the other hand was at first forced to give up his ideals of knights and innocence, but at least he grew out of it (not in the best of ways, but he did) and can now let the girl he loves choose what to do, while LF just doesn't seem the type to willingly respect either sansa or cat's choices...  
hope i made sense

Caro, yes you made sense and it's very well said too!  I agree.

[Lemon Cake]

I'll just leave this here.  It's relevant to the thread, I swear.

And sorry if you've already seen it.  I'm a bit behind the times.

[Villemo]

brashcandy, on 14 February 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

Where he picked up the words isn't hard to imagine, he is after all lowborn, and has spent his life around other rude and crude persons - prostitutes, fellow fighters etc. I think your original question was why he's so crude, since he's clearly able to vary his touch to communicate concern and care? Utltimately the man could probably talk like a high lord if he wanted to, he's been around enough of them and is the personal bodyguard of the prince. But he would likely consider that to be pretentious and fake, and he prefers his rough, but honest approach to speaking.

It was only argument for option 'he doesn't want'. I agree, he spent most of his life with Lannisters (strong and one of the largest family in Westeros), so he can speak like a high knight

[bgona]

He doesn´t want cause, as it has been pointed out, it would sound fake. He is rough, but she feels more comfortable with him that way. She didn´t feel bothered when he tells her things as she is taller, and the teats things as when Tyrion ask her about her blooming.

[Buckwheat]

Villemo, on 14 February 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

I have 'a language' question - I think, that he cant talk about sex/sexuality. He talked to/or about (his) little bird and used word as 'teats', 'fool and his cunt' or 'fucking bloody'. I regard this as a form of self-defense (very specific self-defense), I read this words as vulgar, but I'm not sure if I goot it understand
So, what do you think, Sandor can't or doesn't want to speak gently?

As already mentioned, nobody ever bothered to teach Sandor how to talk politely. And perhaps he also thinks it would be too "knightly", too artificial and false, like if talking politely would be something the courtiers and knights invented to hide the real face of the world - at least as he sees it: dirty, "bare", rogue, unfair (I do not know how to say it, well, Sandor's wiew of the world and society). It is like tying a handkerchief to one's beloved's lance: it may look prettier, but it will not change the function of a lance which is to kill somebody. I think Sandor also sees sex like this and so he will not talk of it and other way because that would be being untrue and it would mean lying - I do not remember, but does somebody have a quote where Sandor tells a lie? I just started my ACOK reread and I never paid attention to Sandor before, so, does anyone know whether he lies? Because if he does not, then it is just as he sees it and talks about it true.

[bgona]

He lies at Joffrey in his tourney helping Sansa. He lies at the man in the boat telling that he will pay without having money. Few times he lies, but always in a purpose of survival. He lies also getting to the RW.

[MaryaStone]

Elba, I liked your post comparing Petyr and Sandor very much, it was very insightful. Instead of writing anything else on the topic, I´m going to add something I wrote for the romance thread. Someone suggested the comparison and that's my reply. My views are very similar to yours.

MaryaStone, on 05 February 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

I'm glad you found the post interesting. Thanks for telling me!

As for Petyr, I don't see romance there. She is not attracted to him and this is clear in the books. For me, a love story involves two and Sansa doesn't even like Petyr. I agree with you that GRRM has established a sort of love triangle with Sandor/Sansa/Petyr in which the two men seem to be compared. An Appearances/Reality dynamics where Petyr is better looking, speaks courteously, even his breath is nicer (smells of mint), while Sandor is disfigured, speaks harshly and usually smells of wine.

Petyr seems to be the nice one but he is deceiving and treacherous (he betrayed Ned and probably took part in his death) while Sandor is brutally honest and apparently cruel but has never harmed the Starks (on the contrary, he's protected the girls), while Petyr caused their downfall. You can observe that Petyr insists on touching her and kissing her while S. Clegane restrains from doing so (he never touches her in a sexual way, no matter how threatening he is, he never goes so far) and Sansa herself touches the Hound three times of her own volition (after the tourney, after the mob scene and when she touches his face and notices his tears) and never touches or kisses Littlefinger unless forced to do so.

Fantasies are also important and Petyr never appears in them, while Sandor seems to be the subject of these fantasies more than once.

As for the foreshadowing and signals indicating that Sansa and Sandor Clegane are meant to live one of those love songs she's so fond of, there are plenty of them in the books, but I agree with Clover that this isn't the right thread to enumerate them.

I agree with you that it was only a connection in the first book (although an interesting and surprising human connection) but later it developed into something more complicated, the spark for a potential future romance. Romance doesn't necessarily mean 'happily ever after', but I think their song is meant to be, although it'll probably be a tragic one other girls like Sansa will hear the minstrels singing for years to come.

It would be the greatest irony for cynical Sandor Clegane to became chivalry and song material and for Disney princess Sansa to have her fairy tale but end up with an ugly monster, instead of a gorgeous prince. This would be the ultimate irony for Sandor and Sansa.

I also think there should be some successful relationships in the story, otherwise it would be unbelievable, because even in real life, some people get their reasonably happy endings. Why not ASOIF characters, then?

I don't usually establish comparisons between characters in ASOIF because I like to measure each character according to their worldview, their attitude, the things that make them tick, etc.

For example, one has to measure Sandor by the knightly values he insists on mocking but follows doggedly, all the time, even when he killed Mycah. I say this, because a knight is obligued to obey his king/queen. No excuses are valid here. The KG knights stayed put behind a door hearing how king Aerys raped and savaged his queen (their queen). When one of them was questioned why, if they were not expected to protect the queen, the answer he got was: 'Yes, but not from him (the king)'.

I'd never given a thought to Sandor's similarities/differences to Tyrion because their similarities weren't specially relevant, in my view, not even for the characters themselves, until they were set as competitors for Sansa. With Littlefinger, it's more or less the same. He seems to be a sort of suitor for her as well. Probably, this three men interested in the same girl for completely different reasons are meant to be compared. Not as potential lovers but as people with worldviews and attitudes to life that are completely different, and this shows in the way they feel for Sansa and what she means to them.

For Tyrion, she's a means to obtain a goal, to have a claim on Winterfell and the North, to Littlefinger, she's more or less the same, but we have to add his twisted interest in the girl and that weird mixture of pseudo fatherly love and surrogate love interest.

For Sandor, she represents the best in him (and the world in general) and everything that is worth fighting for: ideals, chivalry, honour, beauty, and even love (why not?).

In GOT, I started to be fascinated by this pair and I didn't think there would be any kind of romance between them (things started to change later).Their connection in an basic human level ,that interesting exchange and those conversations about values, ideas and worldviews, were enough for me to look forward to their encounters.

He offered her pragmatism and advice, a grasp on the sordid side of reality and the corruption of the court and the world in general, his protection, his support and even a basis for self respect, because he listened to her, talked to her, when all the rest only objectified her in one way or another ( Cersei and Joff took her for dumb, only because she wasn't scheming and twisted like them and the others only wanted something from her, not the person she was).

In exchange, she offered him compassion, comfort, understanding, beauty ( in the broad sense of the world) and some hope in his bleak existence. She gave him reasons to live, not just exist the way he does, and a purpose, a reason to fight or to change, even.

It's meaningful that they are the only ones who can see one another for what they are. In him, they only see the disfigured monster, nothing else, and they don't see Sansa either. As beautiful as she is, they can't see her, they only see her as a means to obtain a goal or as an object of desire because of her looks.

People can't see past the superficial layer: He's the Hound, the brutal fighter, as scary as he looks, and she's the dumb pretty girl for the rest of the people. They are the real man and the real girl only when they talk to each other, probably because nobody else bothers to see them for what they are.

Their encounters belong to the intimate personal sphere of life and take place without witnesses. Whatever was going on between them, nobody knew it existed but them. It was their secret, a secret she still keeps (she thinks of him but keeps it for herself : What would they think if they knew I kissed the Hound? ) and he only spills his soul and talks about her when he's at death's door.

Woman of War said she wasn't all that interested in Sandor's predicaments because they were personal and intimate, and that Tyrion's were more interesting as his choices would have political relevance.

Why bother reading endless pages about his personal life then? Why writing about his relations to his siblings, his father, his sexual life, his lost wife, his whore-lovers, and the way people see him or wheter they like him or not (he's angry when the smallfalk don't like him despite his efforts to be a good Hand) ? Let's forget his irrelevant personal life and focus on his political relevance. What shall we talk about then? There's not much, I'm afraid. Tyrion isn't all that interesting from a political and strategical point of view in these novels, not as much as Tywin, Bolton, Varys, Doran or Littlefinger.

In fact, these books aren't all that interesting from the political point of view: a lot of scheming, plotting and struggling to retain or achieve power, but not so much depth. I think the books are more interesting when they show the conflicts characters undergo because of concepts more universal and pivotal than even politics (and politics is very important), the things that have always worried people since the origins of civilizations: Religion, power, family, love, moral codes and honour, life and death, victims and victimizers, peope who exploit or are exploited.

Vary's and Littlefinger' s plots pale as regards relevance compared to this, because it's always the same: the same dogs with different collars. I makes no difference to me which king/queen sits on the iron throne (unless I prefer one for personal reasons, but what does this have to do with politics?).

Nothing will change: the aristocrats above and the smallfalk below. If a king could rise from below, we'd witness a change, but just for a while, for the amount of time it takes this former commoner to identify with the aristocracy and blend with the nobles and their ways. Unless the political system changes, nothing will really change. Unless the Others cause a deep change in the old values and the current status system becomes irrelevant, nothing will change.

Dany has good intentions and tries to change things but she fails and everything stays the same or becomes even worse. She's the only one who really bothers to be fair to the smallfolk and she's hated and ridiculed. Jon also tries very hard to be a good ruler but it isn't easy. I don't care who has rightful claims on the throne or who hasn't. I'd prefer someone like Davos: honourable, well meaning and with common sense, but none of the potential kings/queens have these qualities.

Edited by MaryaStone, 16 February 2012 - 05:23 AM.