414 replies to this topic

[MaryaStone]

And those Kettleblack's descriptions are very similar to Sandor's (minus the scars). Tall dark guys with rugged features and a hooked nose. Osney even has some scars on his cheek.

The Kettleblacks are supposed to be attractive men (Cersei likes them well enough), so we have to infer that Sandor would be attractive too if his scars weren't so gruesome and he didn't always look so angry and so gaunt. Does the man ever eat or rest? Does he spend his nights drinking and brooding? Why do the Kettleblacks appear in the books? To be compared to Sandor and be found lacking? To make us notice he isn't really ugly but just has half his face ghastly damaged?

And how gruesome are his burns? Are they really as gruesome as they are described in Sansa's point of view chapters or is this Sansa's impression rather than the truth? Of course, they can't be pretty, but they are a bit over the top and quite unrealistic ( the wet wounds that seem fresh, the bone showing... I think this is physically impossible). When Arya describes Sandor she only refers to a man with half his face burned but she doesn't seem as shocked as Sansa (not shocked at all, really).

Maybe the red parts are more the torchlight's reflection than any real fresh wounds, because these should have healed many years before and new skin should have covered them.

Edited by MaryaStone, 22 February 2012 - 06:59 PM.

[clover]

Thanks so much, Bgona!

And it is so hard to do some questions justice, because I still haven't read everything yet, and I forgot about Arya. How could I forget, he totally laughed and didn't give it away either.

[bgona]

It´s true Marya.  I never believe about the almost seen the bone. It is imposible.

[clover]

It's a tough one. He has to have his awakening, his time off to think and reflect, but I also wonder what the hell is really going to have to happen.

I don't see him either, being so patient, and taking such a long personal time out, yet being really worried about his Bird. Something is going to have to kick in, if he is that gravedigger.

[Fred Stark]

I'm looking forward for Sandor's POV if he is alive..
I still dont feel Sansa is in love with Sandor consciously or unconsciously..but  I do feel it was Sandor that kick start her  adult awakening (which is good as that shows Sansa had improved so much as a character that she can see through pysical qualities..so if they meet after this ,there is a big chance for her to fall for him as he is no longer the Hound) ...but it is very clear Sandor loves Sansa ..but poor Sandor doesnt know being harsh is not a way to win a lady's heart especially the old Sansa
And I seriously hope George will have one Jeyne Westerling POV  to solve all the speculation about her(love potion,being pregnant) and some Gendry POV ...I want Sansa to be more active in playing the games of throne without losing much of her moral and cause the downfall of LittleFinger...Imagine her saying to LF "You shouldnt trust me..this one is for my dad!"

Another thing ,sorry as this is out of topic and if it had been discussed before,I'm new to this forum and this is my second post......I found the manner of Lady dying more disturbing than her death itself (dying in Ned's own hand under the Queen's command) ..could this foreshadow that Cersei will hire a faceless man(Arya,her own kin) to kill Sansa after she gets to know her location..Ned killed Lady as he knew no matter what Lady is going to die,so better be him rather than another person..so if it happened, will Arya also feel the same as if not her another faceless man would do the job so better be her or she will refuse it ..George needs to release the book soon,I cant wait..

[brashcandy]

Welcome Fred Stark! I agree that Sandor is in love with Sansa. I was reading through ASOS the other day and the man literally has to sit down when he hears that she's been married, and he gets all quiet, staring into the fire, mouth twitching. It's really sad to read, and also very funny too

Good point on if Sansa's life might be at risk from a family member. I don't see Arya killing any of her relatives under any circumstances, but Tyrion on the other hand is now a relative of Sansa's, and may be holding a grudge. There's credible evidence to suggest that he could be the savage giant in the Ghost of High Heart's prophecy.

[Starbird]

childofsummer, on 22 February 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

IMO, that's barking you hear.   He doesn't talk to her like she's stupid, just naive.  He requires her to make logical deductions when he talks to her about knights and how they're just swords with ribbons.  He argues with her and expects her to get what he's saying.  He trusts her discretion enough to give her some fairly bald character assessments of people at court.  Do any of you think he would talk to, say, Lollys, that way if he were guarding her?

Barking . . . LOL.

I'm agree that he trusts her discretion but I think part of his frustration is from her inability to read between the lines. She doesn't give thank him for saving her from the mob, she doesn't give him credit for saving her from Joffrey when he has her stripped in the yard, he's convinced she can't look him in the face . . . he's giving out all these hints that he likes her and she's just not getting it. Also, she keeps spewing nonsense ("my brother Robb is a traitor") and I think that frustrates him, too. He's leveled with her (character assessments of people at court, the story behind his burns, etc.) but she won't be entirely honest and drop the act with him. He's shown his trust in her and she hasn't shown the same level of trust in him (for ex., he knows she's lying when they run into each other on the serpentine, post-Dontos).

[brashcandy]

Well to be strictly correct Starbird, he didn't save her from Joffrey during that beating. Sure, I would have loved to see her acknowledge him saying "Enough" later on, but that's just my little shipper heart, and not a realistic expectation of a girl who's just been beaten and humiliated and can only think of getting away from her tormentors. I do think she appreciates him throwing the cloak to her however.

Edited by brashcandy, 22 February 2012 - 09:44 PM.

[Caro99]

Maryastone, your second to last post was SO great. You just pointed out many important things and I liked how you defended sandor being sansa’s ideal man- not pod (sorry to the pod fangirls out there. I really like his character, just now with sansa) or aegon or harry the heir.
  But the point that I most enjoyed was where you mention how you’re sure Sandor wouldn’t be very interested in the arts of seduction. The man has lived in court for such a long time & we’ve never heard he fell for the girls who play around with men. i think that when he first met sansa he just dismissed her as another pretty girl who would be utterly foolish around guys and trying to impress every man she ever met with compliments and such, but then after the tourney he realizes that if sansa is nice with guys and everyone else, is not cause she is seeking something in return, but because she was generally nice in her soul. So this sort of breath of fresh air he hadn’t encountered in a long time threw him aback and he fell for it. Smiles, flattery and winks may serve for the kettleblacks or Robert, but sandor likes other things in women. Honesty, compassion, mutual respect. What worries me is that sansa as alayne becomes a real seducer (even if she is acting to get what she wants) and if sandor encounters her and sees her behave like that (whether it be with him or others), well he might get angry at her and turns all nasty again as he tries to bring her back to earth with what a fool she is making of herself- he may even say she resembles cersei now just to really piss her out.
--
About Sansa being possessive of Sandor, maybe this doesn’t seem like a straight statement of it, but in her second chapter of AFFC, when the lords of the vale come for a “visit”, the first time sansa sees them and starts describing them, she mentions how some of the men stood as tall as the hound. To me it sounded like she felt a grim pride regarding how impressive sandor was in person. & this just comes out of the blue in this chapter, so little things make her remember him. is that a sort of possessive behavior, maybe not that much but she isn’t around him so far for us to see how she’ll react to having him back at her side J
--
Welcome Fred Stark! Wow, this week was really cool since we got a lot of new people on the thread! Great J btw, does anybody know what happened to Faceless Girl and Lady Candance? Haven’t seen them around these posts for a while now.
--
Clover, you posted so many theories and all of them worked, so I just can’t seem to suspect which one will George go along with… But we know it will be good, if it happens, since so far their relationship has been dealt with pretty cleverly. Maybe since back at the red keep sandor just keep bumping into sansa or saving her all of a sudden, we’ll have them reunite like this? But Brash, I am clueless as to how will the kiss eventually come about. Can’t decide if I want a passionate one, a gentle teary eyed one, or a climatic one… so many possibilities!
--
And as for what sandor thinks of sansa’s intelligence: I think Sandor, more than anyone in ACOK know just how bad things are for sansa cause he cared enough to keep an eye out for her. so he may believe that sansa would have been willing to be involved in a plan for her escape, and actually trying to carry it out, but I don’t think he believed there was at least one person in KL who would care enough to take the risk of helping her out. But since he took the “trouble” of seeking her out to “talk” more than once and he tried to change her views on different subjects, I believe he thought of her as a smart girl, not at all like the silly foolish empty headed girl everyone thinks she is (and the girl he once thought she was). But I also agree with what somebody posted previously that he must have been frustrated that she never seemed to trust him. he doesn’t know that sansa by the end of the second book believes that he will let no harm come to her. That’s why he tells her later on this thing. To make her finally realize she has someone who is willing to help her out and cares about her. I’m sure he was glad that she was finally lying to keep up appearances with the whole my-family-are-traitors thing, but maybe he would have like her to let down this charade with him?

[Elba the Intoner]

OK, I am going to try and make this quick because I have about a hundred other things I should be doing right now but can't seem to pull myself away from these threads.  So, I have two quick things I want to respond to -
1. About why Sandor didn't interrogate Sansa further on the serpentine steps about where she was when it was obvious he didn't believe her, actually, the only part of her statement that he didn't believe is that she went to pray for Joffrey.  The part about going to the Godswood was the truth, and if you go back and look at that scene, Sansa thinks"she dared not lie to him".  She says she went to the Godswood to pray for her father, and then throws in the part about also praying for Joffrey, and my take ion it is that he didn't believe she would pray about Joffrey but the rest of it, going to the Godswood to pray for her father, is very believable and so not necessary to question it further.

I know a lot of us on this thread are also following the Sansa character arc reread, and the next chapter (read ahead tonight) si when Cersei and Sansa are in Maegor's holdfast during the Blackwater Bay Battle, and this actually gets brought up.  Cersei confronts Sanssa about going to the Godswood.  Sansa's first thought is that they have found out about her meetings with Dontos, but really Cersei is calling Sansa out on praying for her family in the war and that she had better rethink that because if Stannis wins the she is going to have Ilyn take Sansa's head.  So, they all know that she goes to the godswood and they all believe it is just to pray for her family, because it is believable and there's no need to dig further there (which is a good thing for Sansa since she is actually doing more than just praying for her family in the Godswood).

2. To the new poster who was wondering if anyone else got the idea that Sandor was lurking around after Sansa and searching her out in places (sorry I forgot your name but welcome), you are not the only one who thinks that.  That discussion came up in the Sansa character arc reread thread also during the chapter with Sandor and Sansa on the serpentine steps.  If you go to that thread and that part of the discussion with the chapter on the serpentine steps, it's also the first time Sansa meets with Dontos, you can read some interesting discussion on that.

[brashcandy]

MaryaStone, on 22 February 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

As for seduction, Sandor knows nothing of seduction, although he instinctively knows what he must do for love, even when he's never experienced love himself. I also think that he'd refuse to use seduction strategies even if he knew them, because he'd see them as a form of deception and this simply wouldn't do for him. Littlefinger, on the contrary, is the master of deception and treachery, so he'll try to lure her with his sacarine speech and manners. He's more than possessive, he's an oppressor for Sansa.

So Sandor's is a bit of a caveman getting the girl into bed, but once there what does he do? I agree with you that he might know instinctively what he has to do, especially if he is with someone inexperienced, and we know already that he knows how to touch gently (gosh could GRRM have made San/San anymore blatant?)

Would it be fair to say then that (in the future!) Sansa would have a similar night to the one between Dany and Drogo? Obviously with none of the I've just been sold to you anxiety and fear floating around. Or do you guys and girls not see Sandor as that type of lover.

[R & R]

brashcandy, on 23 February 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

...do you guys and girls not see Sandor as that type of lover.

I honestly don't see Sandor as being a particularly skilled lover, by which I mean having a squee amount of bedroom skillz.  I assume that for the most part he's only ever dealt with his sexual needs with whores and, sadly, but this is the way of warriors, even though there's nothing in the text to affirm or deny, via post battle rape, as soldiers tend to do.

For all those assumptions, Sandor is a man who is clearly undergoing much in the way of personal changes, and the text does support that he is capable of a "not ungentle" touch.  So I suppose there is the hope that if SanSanage does occur that he doesn't simply take her brutally.  Then again, it's difficult to suss what, exactly, fuels the fires of the fandom.

[Queen Dorothea]

bgona, on 22 February 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

Jajajajaja Well I don´t see the washerwoman caring about The Hound in another circunstances. It is not an easy thing to say: "Guess with whom I was last night? The Hound" and the other washerwoman: "And didn´t you trhow out?"

We see him sexy, Sansa maybe, all the other women in KL not at all.

I don't think they have a say there. Consensual is not the Westerosi style.
There is some quote about him when Tyrion wonders "Does he drink, gamble, whore?" (or similar, I'm not looking at book right now)
And the answer is "all of it".
I seem to remember something about a maid too. Vaguely.

I really don't think the washerwomen would know about the sword fighting.

Edited by Queen Dorothea, 23 February 2012 - 04:15 AM.

[bgona]

Somethig about a maid? I´m going to reread everything about the hound to find out!!!!!

Anyway, I just can´t see the washer women talking about that.  Sandor visited whores, that is all we know.
About the: "younger and faster" I just took as a proof of Sandor loosing favor and power on Joffrey´s. They were beginning to go each one in different paths.Also it is show that the Imp was getting what he want: Sandor away of Joffrey. Ad people just take notice that Sandor is been replaced by one younger and faster, even they really haven´t see it in a real combat or in a tourney.  While they had see Sandor warriors skills at many.

---------------

Something was on my head: why Sandor starts talking with Sansa? What have changed inside him to do it?

I just believe that in the tourney when he proves in front of everybody how was his brother and he fight him, something changed inside him. But this will have a point if Sandor speaks to Sansa after the second day. However, it was the opposite, after speaking with Sansa, something changed inside him. He react in a more honorable behaviour saving Loras.

And also, in that first conversation, something got in Sansa. She knew that he was going to win everybody. She begun to havean unbreakable faith on The Hound. So just in that fist night was created a bound between them.

[MaryaStone]

Sandor and Sansa's first kiss, if it ever happens (Marya lighting candles to all the Seven begging for this scene to happen) ...
Please, no body-ripping, trashy novel kiss, please nooooo.
I want it earthy (not in the sense of bawdy, but natural, simple, uninhibited and down to earth) believable, honest, sincere and imperfect, just as Sandor is.
It will be tentative and endearingly awkward, because it will probably be his first kiss (whore's don't usually kiss their clients) and perhaps hers as well. Some nose bumping, some fumbling to find a comfortable angle, some neck strain for Sansa and much leaning down for him if they are standing (he's so tall). I guess it will start tentative and cautious, as if on tip toes, but then, if they have time and privacy, the dams will break and it will go on an on, like the tide, unstoppable and flooding everything else.
No more, I'm letting myself be carried away. You can imagine the rest yourselves.

And what about making love? I agree with RR, Sandor can't be a skilled lover, I'm sure he doesn't know how to caress a woman and give her pleasure because he has only taken care of his own needs. He probably thinks all women find him disgusting and they only let them come near them for money. He'd hate pretenses ( he wouldn't stomach a fake relationship like the one Tyrion has with Shae), so he wouldn't want hookers to pretend they like him, and he wouldn't want to be kissed by them because he would be looking out for signs of revulsion all the time and he'd hate it.

He'd go straight to business with whores and he'd prefer the simple ones and not the expensive sophisticated ones, because he'd find the simple ones more honest , and that's the way he likes everything: honest and without false flattery, no saccharine words and fluttering of eyelashes for Sandor or he'll gag.

If he ever climbs into bed with Sansa, he'll be in awe, he'll worship her body and all of her and he'll probably blink and shake his head, and pinch himself to check he's awake, because she is all he's ever wanted and never dreamed he'd get her. Being accepted by the most beautiful girl in the world (that's what she is for him) must be shocking , earthshaking, for a man who's never felt wanted and accepted, not even by the whores in the most dingy Flea Bottom brothels or the poorest street hookers. He only made advances on her during the BBB scene because he was far gone and intoxicated, but being sober and having dealt with his feelings of regret and shame, he won't do that again and he'll think she's disgusted by him and angry at him for threatening and scaring her, for daring to yank at her, shove her the way he did and for being unable to protect her.

I think that she'll have to make the first move if she wants him in her bed, because he can't fathom what her feelings are and never, in a million years ,would he imagine she is attracted to him.

If they make love, it won't be perfect, it will be uncomfortable and and a bit awkward because he's no expert and she won't be either. They'll be inexperienced and nervous ( he can't have learned much from whores if he's only aim was to satisfy his own needs and nothing else), but tender and gentle. He'll treat her as if she was a china doll and it will be beautifully imperfect and honest, like a first time real experience for real inexperienced people. He'll be to heavy and too big for her and afraid of hurting her, she'll be more than a little anxious and scared but they'll manage, and it will be unforgettable, worth waiting for seven books ( and who know how many years) and having to suffer a lot of slimy unwanted suitors (Sansa) and attending boring religious services, listening to endless sermons and digging graves aplenty (Sandor). And, we silly Sansan fans will be clapping and hooting and tossing our Dream of Spring book in the air ( though I'm sure it'll be another door-stopper) but they'll never know.

I'm afraid this post is only apt for giggling girls. Sorry Sandor boys but you can only watch Die Hard again to get over all this fluff. Now that I think about it, I can also watch it again, but only to see, and above all, listen to Mr. Alan Rickman.