Why doesn't Catelyn believe Tyrion's reasoning?

[Melifeather]

In aGoT, after Catelyn captures Tyrion at the Inn and during the trek to the Eyrie, Tyrion has some convincing arguments that he presents to Catelyn that she rejects, namely:

1) Catelyn: "The assassin was armed with your dagger." Tyrion: "...Lady Stark, whatever you may believe of me, I am not a stupid man. Only a fool would arm a common footpad with his own blade."

2) Catelyn: "Why would Petyr lie to me?" Tyrion: "Why, every man at court has heard him tell how he took your maidenhead, my lady." Catelyn: "That is a lie!"

3) Tyrion: "How did Littlefinger tell you I came by this dagger of his?" Catelyn: "You won it from him in a wager, during the tourney on Prince Joffrey's name day." Tyrion: "When my brother Jaime was unhorsed by the Knight of Flowers, that was his story, no?" Catelyn: "It was, " she admitted. (the conversation resumes after the attack by the mountain clans) Tyrion: "As I was saying before we were so rudely interrupted, " Tyrion began, "there is a serious flaw in Littlefinger's fable. Whatever you may believe of me, Lady Stark, I promise you this - I never bet against my family."

Tyrion could not have won the dagger since Jaime lost the tilt against Loras and Tyrion did not bet against Jaime, so why didn't Catelyn believe him that he did not orchestrate the attack on Bran?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

I think she may have believed him, or at least had her doubts about the truth of what Littlefinger told her, but at this point she was too far in to turn back. She had to continue on to the Eyrie. The mountain clans were on them and she expected Tywin to have armed forces out in the Riverlands looking for her, so he had no choice.

[Ran]

Tyrion could not have won th

He says. What proof does he have? None, just his assertion. She's not exactly in place to check it up.

[Phat Walda]

I think she may have believed him, or at least had her doubts about the truth of what Littlefinger told her, but at this point she was too far in to turn back. She had to continue on to the Eyrie. The mountain clans were on them and she expected Tywin to have armed forces out in the Riverlands looking for her, so he had no choice.

:agree:

She needs someone to blame and hold accountable, and it's a lot easier to distrust Tyrion than Petyr.

[David Selig]

It's really simple. A man accused of a serious crime is very likely to lie about it. For all Catelyn knew, Tyrion might've been betting against Jaime all the time and was now lying about. Tyrion claiming he never did it wasn't a proof of anything.

[HenryPotter]

Tyrion's character is easily the most fascinating one. Yeah, Cat is already "all in" by the time Tyrion starts making sense. By the end, she does trust him but it is too late.

They were already in the clutches of Liza.

It's interesting how a lot of what Tyrion says are really not lies at all. He just neglects to share certain truths, but he rarely lies.

Even the Starks think he's evil or bad simply because he's a dwarf.

[birdsong66]

Even the Starks think he's evil or bad simply because he's a dwarf.

I don't remember anything in the books to support this^^. Even as she is preparing for the King's visit, Catelyn is careful to accommidate Tyrion's needs as she knew them, i.e. candles, free use of the library, even allowing him to take books with him. She knows a Lannister is to blame for Bran's fall, and attempted murder after the fact, and in this she is correct. She just grabbed the wrong Lannister, but the only one readily available to her, as it happens.

I think she came to trust Tyrion after the first attack from the clansmen, and demanded that he remain unharmed while at the Eyrie as her prisoner.

That the Starks, as a House, think Tyrion is bad/evil based on physical stature is simply not borne out. That he is one part of the evil that is House Lannister is borne out based on actions alone, as far as the Starks are concerned. And in this, they are correct.

[Vic-tarion Rattlehead]

Catelyn was a highly emotional character (and after having her son flung from a tower and then attempted to be stubbed - who wouldn't be?), so it is not surprising, that she was biased when accusing the very first suspect in committing the crime. For example, before Bran's fall - when she talked to Ned about Lyza Aryn accusations of Lannisters for Jon Aryns murder, she hasn't advised to seize them on the spot.

[teemo]

In my opinion, Catelyn really knew that Tyrion was telling the truth, but just couldn't face it, or else she'd have to admit to herself and others that she led 6 men to their deaths for absolutely nothing. And since Tyrion is clever as hell and there is no total absolute way for her to find out whether he is speaking the truth, it's easier to just consider him a liar.

Plus, like HenryPotter said, she was basically "all-in" with this move. But I think not too far deep-down, she knew the truth. No turning back though at this point.

Right before she entered the Vale, her POV:

...Two score men flanked the dwarf and the rest of her ragged band, knights and men-at-arms in service to her sister Lysa and Jon Arryn's young son, and yet Tyrion betrayed no hint of fear. Could I be wrong? Catelyn wondered, not for the first time. Could he be innocent after all, of Bran and Jon Arryn and all the rest? And if he was, what did that make her? Six men had died to bring him here.

Resolute, she pushed her doubts away.

[Karimbus]

He's a Lannister, Petyr is her old friend. It wouldn't seem right to openly trust him, and it wouldn't look good to turn back by that point, as someone has previously mentioned.

[lyvyathan]

In aGoT, after Catelyn captures Tyrion at the Inn and during the trek to the Eyrie, Tyrion has some convincing arguments that he presents to Catelyn that she rejects, namely:

1) Catelyn: "The assassin was armed with your dagger." Tyrion: "...Lady Stark, whatever you may believe of me, I am not a stupid man. Only a fool would arm a common footpad with his own blade."

2) Catelyn: "Why would Petyr lie to me?" Tyrion: "Why, every man at court has heard him tell how he took your maidenhead, my lady." Catelyn: "That is a lie!"

3) Tyrion: "How did Littlefinger tell you I came by this dagger of his?" Catelyn: "You won it from him in a wager, during the tourney on Prince Joffrey's name day." Tyrion: "When my brother Jaime was unhorsed by the Knight of Flowers, that was his story, no?" Catelyn: "It was, " she admitted. (the conversation resumes after the attack by the mountain clans) Tyrion: "As I was saying before we were so rudely interrupted, " Tyrion began, "there is a serious flaw in Littlefinger's fable. Whatever you may believe of me, Lady Stark, I promise you this - I never bet against my family."

Tyrion could not have won the dagger since Jaime lost the tilt against Loras and Tyrion did not bet against Jaime, so why didn't Catelyn believe him that he did not orchestrate the attack on Bran?

I thought it was obvious. She's just a naive woman who lived a largely sheltered life and is a very bad judge of character - hence her decision to trust LF, old man Frey, Jamie Lannister, and hate a child living in her household for no good reason.

[Melifeather]

I thought it was obvious. She's just a naive woman who lived a largely sheltered life and is a very bad judge of character - hence her decision to trust LF, old man Frey, Jamie Lannister, and hate a child living in her household for no good reason.

Wow! Harsh! LOL

I think that the overall theme of these books are "honor" and how each character makes their decisions based on how important they value honor. Ned would be at one extreme and Cersei at the other. What value does honor have if not everyone plays "fair"? Catelyn values honor as well, but she realizes that not everyone will adhere to honor and so she does have "doubt" going for her. If you look at each Stark child, their chances of survival depend upon their ability to adapt and realize that their world is changing from one of honor to one of "realpolitik" (a description I borrowed from here: http://reviewsindepth.com/2011/10/the-dilemma-of-honour-and-realpolitik-in-george-r-r-martins-a-song-of-ice-and-fire/)

I agree she shows some naivity to completely trust Littlefinger, and the Freys by thinking they would be protected by the Guest Right, even though she understood that Robb had dishonored him. Ironically, Jaime is trying to adhere to honor by giving Brienne Ned's sword and money to find the girls, and because of this I think he is destined to die. Sansa's survival will depend upon whether or not she can adapt, as she thought the world operated on honor until Joffrey showed her what realpolitik was like.

From your comments it would appear that you think that it's "naive, and a very bad judge of character" to expect others to adhere to honor. That is the debate in these books and ultimately the one(s) who sit the Iron Throne will be the one(s) who are able to somehow be a combination of honor and realpolitik.

[teemo]

Catelyn is gullible. When she saw Petyr for the first time in forever she didn't trust him at all, and then what...within the day or so she was telling Ned to trust him and that he was like her brother? :ack: If Cat trusts someone, that's a pretty good sign that they can't be trusted at all...

[Gingerly Grumkin]

We can't really blame her for trusting LF, he was a different man when she knew him. And as for not beliving Tyrion, maybe she did. Despite what the haters say Cat was a skilled player of AGOT. She was planning her next move on how to deal with Tyrion when he waddled his way up to her face. What could she do except arrest him? She could not go south or west, becuase that was enemy territory so she had to choose between north and east. The Lannisters would check the north regardless, so she went east. When Tyrion said "I didn't do it" Cat thought that BF and her sister would uncover the truth. And the rest is history...

[Melifeather]

We can't really blame her for trusting LF, he was a different man when she knew him. And as for not beliving Tyrion, maybe she did. Despite what the haters say Cat was a skilled player of AGOT. She was planning her next move on how to deal with Tyrion when he waddled his way up to her face. What could she do except arrest him? She could not go south or west, becuase that was enemy territory so she had to choose between north and east. The Lannisters would check the north regardless, so she went east. When Tyrion said "I didn't do it" Cat thought that BF and her sister would uncover the truth. And the rest is history...

I agree with you that Catelyn was a skillful player. Her military scheme to draw out Renly to distract Tywin was spot on. She didn't forsee his killing by Stannis shadow, but the strategy was sound. She also gave Robb good advice whether he took it or not, and it was her negotiations that gained them access over the Twins. Her only mistakes had to do with her belief in "honor".

I'd like to think that if her sister hadn't blundered with the trial the outcome would have been different. Tyrion would have remained a prisoner even if she did come to believe he was innocent. She could have used him as a ransom to get Ned and the girls. I wonder if at the time she realized what she lost? But then again, it would have been "honorable" to release Tyrion once she was convinced of his innocence and she probably would have went that route.

[teemo]

Yeah, I can't believe she let it come to that trial. Did she even go to Lysa's chambers to try to talk her out of it? What was her grand plan, anyway...take Tyrion to the Vale and..... ????? Cat should have fought tooth and nail to get him out of that trial....considering she pretty much knew that Bronn was going to win. Not to mention, she was basically screwed either way with that trial by combat. Bronn loses? Tyrion's dead and useless. Bronn wins? Tyrion's gone and you have no prisoner/hostage.... :stillsick:

[Melifeather]

Yeah, I can't believe she let it come to that trial. Did she even go to Lysa's chambers to try to talk her out of it? What was her grand plan, anyway...take Tyrion to the Vale and..... ????? Cat should have fought tooth and nail to get him out of that trial....considering she pretty much knew that Bronn was going to win. Not to mention, she was basically screwed either way with that trial by combat. Bronn loses? Tyrion's dead and useless. Bronn wins? Tyrion's gone and you have no prisoner/hostage.... :stillsick:

I think Catelyn was taken by surprise by how much her sister had changed. She chose the Vale because she correctly deduced that anyone wanting to help Tyrion would go towards Winterfell.

[lyvyathan]

I think that the overall theme of these books are "honor" and how each character makes their decisions based on how important they value honor. Ned would be at one extreme and Cersei at the other. What value does honor have if not everyone plays "fair"? Catelyn values honor as well, but she realizes that not everyone will adhere to honor and so she does have "doubt" going for her. If you look at each Stark child, their chances of survival depend upon their ability to adapt and realize that their world is changing from one of honor to one of "realpolitik" (a description I borrowed from here: http://reviewsindept...f-ice-and-fire/)

I agree she shows some naivity to completely trust Littlefinger, and the Freys by thinking they would be protected by the Guest Right, even though she understood that Robb had dishonored him. Ironically, Jaime is trying to adhere to honor by giving Brienne Ned's sword and money to find the girls, and because of this I think he is destined to die. Sansa's survival will depend upon whether or not she can adapt, as she thought the world operated on honor until Joffrey showed her what realpolitik was like.

From your comments it would appear that you think that it's "naive, and a very bad judge of character" to expect others to adhere to honor. That is the debate in these books and ultimately the one(s) who sit the Iron Throne will be the one(s) who are able to somehow be a combination of honor and realpolitik.

I don't think its a prerequisite for an honorable person to be naive. An honorable person can and should control his behavior and reaction to other people. But that doesn't mean that he or she should do extremely foolish acts.

Anyway, since when does an honorable person give the cold shoulder to her spouse's child living in the same household for 15 years?

And since when does an honorable person decide to kidnap a dwarf and spark a major conflict? I'd have excuse Catelyn if she had tried to make amends to Tyrion after the "evidence" against him started looking shaky. At the very least, plead for an escort to take him safely off the Vale - after the trial by combat - and write a "sorry, my bad" letter to Tywin for kidnapping his son.

She doesn't do any of these things.

I'd give her credit for defending Brienne against the charges of king slaying and other things of course.

[Melifeather]

I don't think its a prerequisite for an honorable person to be naive. An honorable person can and should control his behavior and reaction to other people. But that doesn't mean that he or she should do extremely foolish acts.

Anyway, since when does an honorable person give the cold shoulder to her spouse's child living in the same household for 15 years?

And since when does an honorable person decide to kidnap a dwarf and spark a major conflict? I'd have excuse Catelyn if she had tried to make amends to Tyrion after the "evidence" against him started looking shaky. At the very least, plead for an escort to take him safely off the Vale - after the trial by combat - and write a "sorry, my bad" letter to Tywin for kidnapping his son.

She doesn't do any of these things.

I'd give her credit for defending Brienne against the charges of king slaying and other things of course.

I think in order for Catelyn to get over Ned's apparent infidelity, she disassociated it from Ned and manifested it all in Jon. It certainly was without honor. But, I was also thinking Catelyn was not as far to the extreme as Ned was in regards to honor.

I don't think Catelyn initially wanted to kidnap Tyrion, because it mentions in the book how she tried to hide her identity from him, but after she was recognized she made an impulsive decision. She knew the Lannisters were responsible for Bran's fall, and he was a Lannister. I too am searching for answers as to why she didn't believe Tyrion after he gave her such convincing facts to support his innocence. I think she was too far gone to go back and she may have come to a different conclusion if her sister hadn't grown into such a wacko. Catelyn was truly unprepared for how much Lysa had changed, and was unable to have any influence over what Lysa did. That trial by combat was truly out of her hands.

[lyvyathan]

We can't really blame her for trusting LF, he was a different man when she knew him. And as for not beliving Tyrion, maybe she did. Despite what the haters say Cat was a skilled player of AGOT. She was planning her next move on how to deal with Tyrion when he waddled his way up to her face. What could she do except arrest him? She could not go south or west, becuase that was enemy territory so she had to choose between north and east. The Lannisters would check the north regardless, so she went east. When Tyrion said "I didn't do it" Cat thought that BF and her sister would uncover the truth. And the rest is history...

There are different levels of trust - in Cat's case - she swallowed LF's bait hook line and sinker - no one asked her to kidnap Tyrion. In fact LF told her specifically that the evidence was flimsy. And her husband also told her that the situation would not inevitably lead to war.

He did tell her to mobilize the North defences - but that was what? Sending 200 archers to guard Moat Cailin etc.. - it wasn't a full scale mobilization. Just a cautionary preparation.

Now all she had to do was to walk away from that inn. If she was worried about her safety, she could have still revealed herself and got herself an escort to take her to Riverrun where her father's Seat was.

Kidnapping Tyrion was the worse possible action she could have taken as she was in effect - initiating War on her own - without having the ability to warn House Stark or House Tully. The last time this happened was when Rhaegar (supposedly) kidnapped Lyanna. Catelyn should have known better. Nonetheless it was a pretty dramatic moment and made for good reading.