Why doesn't Catelyn believe Tyrion's reasoning?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Sure it does. That tiny secret is what keeps Cersei Lannister from moving against Robert and Ned immediately, out of fear for herself and her children. Had she known Catelyn was on her way back from King's Landing, rather than on her way to (or, perhaps, on the way to Riverrun to see her ailing father -- who knows?), the only obvious conclusion was that the Starks knew about what Bran saw and it was only a matter of time before they told Robert. She'd have to strike first. That's very much in her persona.

Believing that capturing Tyrion prevents Cersei from suspecting that the Starks know what Bran saw or are simply on to their general involvement depends on believing that Cersei would be suspicious based on the knowledge that Catelyn was in the Riverlands (and that she could deduce why she was there), but would not become suspicious based on the fact that Catelyn 'arrested' her brother. If Catelyn's presence in the Riverlands is likely to raise suspicions about what the Starks know, then taking Tyrion is like flashing a giant neon sign telling Cersei that they know something.

Of course Cersei is going to know something is up when Tyrion is taken! Robert goes hunting basically right after King's Landing finds out about Cat taking Tyrion, and Cersei has the fortified wine plan ready to go. Ned doesn't help matters by going and announcing to Cersei that he knows everything, but Cersei already knows that matters are coming to a head. Catelyn prevented exactly nothing by capturing Tyrion, and created the additional difficulty of loosing Tywin Lannister and Gregor Clegane on the Riverlands.

Certainly, the inevitable war launches with surprising alacrity -- almost as if the Lannisters were preparing to do just that anyway...

I hope I'm not misunderstanding you, but it seems like you are saying not that the war launches so quickly that it simply looks as if the Lannisters were preparing to do it anyway, but that you are hinting that this is, in fact, exactly what the Lannisters were planning to do anyway. I think this is an incredible reach in an attempt to defend Catelyn. There is simply no reason to believe that Tywin was in on Jaime and Cersei's twincest and Kingslaying plotting and therefore planning to start a war against the Riverlands and the Starks to defend Joffrey's crown. And he had no reason to try to draw Ned Stark out and capture him (which was the true plan behind Gregor's raids), before Catelyn took Tyrion. Please correct me if my assumption is wrong and this is not what you meant.

but it's left to Ned to truly screw the pooch and give up the fact that he knows Cersei's secrets. Very shortly after that, Robert is dead and he is imprisoned. Catelyn succeeded at staving that off long enough... for Ned to actually get the knowledge they were after, and to get into position to make use of it effectively.

How did Catelyn stave anything off? Ned finds out about Catelyn taking Tyrion, resigns as Hand over Danaerys, gets attacked by Jaime, wakes up and Robert is leaving KL to go hunting, Robert dies, Ned gets himself killed by telling Cersei what he knows, trusting LF, and not listening to Renly. It's difficult to imagine how Cersei could have possibly killed Robert more quickly if Tyrion had shown up in King's Landing after seeing Catelyn at an inn and mentioned this to his siblings. They would have suspected what was going on, but why are we to believe that this would have hastened Cersei's attempts to kill Robert, which were already moving apace at this point anyway?

The simple fact is that Catelyn brought Tywin Lannister's wrath down upon the Riverlands when she stupidly captured Tyrion in the inn at the Crossroads. It was in no way an effective defensive strategy and it added to instead of mitigating the already simmering conflict between the Starks and Lannisters.

[brashcandy]

The simple fact is that Catelyn brought Tywin Lannister's wrath down upon the Riverlands when she stupidly captured Tyrion in the inn at the Crossroads. It was in no way an effective defensive strategy and it added to instead of mitigating the already simmering conflict between the Starks and Lannisters.

Precisely. Ran's point about Catelyn's strategy being a defensive one is all well and good if that is what Cat believes, but the point is that her defence was seen as a terrible offensive move by one of the most powerful Houses in the realm, and it's mindboggling that Cat could not see this. A defensive strategy is only strong when you prevent others from gaining an advantage in an attack over you. Kidnapping Tyrion and taking him to the Vale brought the attention of Tywin Lannister to the mess that was developing between the Lannisters and the Starks and caused the Starks to immediately be at a disadvantage in the Riverlands and back at KL. Cersei never having found out Cat was in KL means absolutely nothing. Her knowing that Cat had kidnapped her brother was enough for her to have her suspicions and then of course Ned's telling her about the incest didn't help matters.

[lyvyathan]

We can assume that they figured that part out, how could Ned have given Cat the order to arrest Tyrion? It's not a coincidence that she just happened to be on the King's road and Ned giving the order to arrest Tyrion? Would they think that he sent her a raven and instructed her to travel the KR in hopes of finding Tyrion on his way back from the wall? Her actions did not keep her family safer, Ned was injured as a direct result of her actions. If she had stayed in WF and sent Ned a message by Ser Rodrick or anyone else, it would have given Ned time to investigate without starting a war. When Ned discovered the children's true parentage, he send a rider to Stannis, he didn't go himself.

Yeah, I agree. You would have thought that if Ned wanted to arrest Tyrion - he would have specifically have ordered a proclaimation to all and sundry to bring forth the dangerous dwarf to KL to face questioning in relation to Bran's attempted murder.

Besides if the dwarf was indeed heading to KL - Ned would have been in a prime position to question him as "The King's Hand".

The argument that some Cat's fans make that "arresting Tyrion" would somehow make Ned+daughters (not to mention loyal bannermen) safe in KL is absolutely ludicrious - because she had NO WAY of silencing the witnesses who would be rushing in haste to tell the whole world Cat's new found profession of dwarf kidnapping :) and she also had no means to warn Ned that she was embarking on this course.

In fact it was the actions of the Night watchman recruiter who - on his own initiative - rode to warn Ned of Cat's terrible actions.

Ned was forced to cover for Catelyn's stupidity by claiming later on - falsely - that he ordered her to arrest Tyrion so as to give Cat a legal position to justify her actions - and to prevent Catelyn herself from facing the King's justice. (hint hint to Cat's fans remember the fate of the butcher boy and Sansa's direwolf).

[Ran]

Ororo727,

I must write things in a more complex way than I imagined. Because when I say the knowledge of Catelyn's returning from King's Landing was explosive, and then immediately segue into, "if Cersei learned that Catelyn..." then it seems to me that the obvious inference is that I'm talking about Tyrion carrying that information to Cersei, not him murdering Catelyn.

You totally forget that the kidnap was done in OPEN PUBLIC

AND? That's ACTUALLY TO THE GOOD BECAUSE...

I'm joking there. All caps is silly.

But in any case, I mean, how much warning did Ned need? It's unfortunate that Jaime Lannister jumped into matters in such a way, but you'll note that the "incoming wrath of the Lannisters" did not include killing Ned and his daughters, because they still did not know that Ned had learned anything from Catelyn. Since they didn't know Catelyn had ever actually been there. As far as Cat's concerned, mission accomplished. (And, in any case, Jaime's attack has a silver lining: it prevented Ned from haring off to the Mummer's Ford to get ambushed and captured).

how could Ned have given Cat the order to arrest Tyrion?

I'm sure they imagined lots of different ways for that to be arranged without her having been in King's Landing spilling secrets of what Bran saw.

Again, there's absolutely no suggestion anywhere in the book that they realize Catelyn had been in King's Landing. I'd be glad to see a reference to this being wrong, rather than the supposition. At no point in the five novels to date does any Lannister but Tyrion ever come to understand that Catelyn was returning to King's Landing, not traveling to it or to Riverrun or the Eyrie or some such. And the only reason he knows is because Catelyn told him she had spoken with Littlefinger. But for his own reasons, he kept that to himself.

Catelyn's reasons for why she went personally are explained quite satisfactorily. If the evidence had been enough to tell Robert immediately in Ned's estimation, her personal testimony would carry more weight than that of a servant of the house; Robert treats her like a sister, after all, and there are those dramatic wounds. This would be necessary where the Stark accusation would immediately lead to pushback in a divided court -- where there are minions and allies to the Lannisters -- whereas... who'd speak up for the Lannisters at Dragonstone? A letter was all Stannis needed.

Onion,

If Catelyn's presence in the Riverlands is likely to raise suspicions about what the Starks know

It's not her presence. It's the fact that she was returning from King's Landing. Which was a safe enough thing to say when no one knew who she was. But when Tyrion saw her, that information became rather more dangerous. Seizing him appears to have made that particular information lost to the Lannisters: they just hear that Catelyn grabbed Tyrion and made off with him. After all, the big news is that Tyrion has been grabbed by Catelyn Stark -- no big surprise that the surrounding details are lost or garbled. Nowhere in the five novels do Cersei, Jaime, or Tywin (or any Lannister other than Tyrion) indicate knowledge that Catelyn had been in King's Landing. The sum of their knowledge of her whereabouts around that time begins and ends with the inn.

exactly what the Lannisters were planning to do anyway.

I've always thought that Tywin was readying himself, actually. Nothing to do with Catelyn either way, just a side observation on the Lannisters rather than her.

How did Catelyn stave anything off?

Two weeks later, Tyrion waltzes in, tells his siblings, "I hope Lady Catelyn found King's Landing pleasant." And they say, "What? She wa-- oh, hell." And then they hurry up with trying to deal with Ned before he deals with them, because, after all, the only reason for Catelyn to have been in the city without their knowing it... is if the Starks were acting against them. Up to that point, Cersei knows Ned Stark is sniffing around, but it seems he's not really found anything. After that point, the suspicion has to be that he knows something dangerous to her, to Jaime, and to their children.

In the actual time line, weeks pass between the news of Tyrion's arrest and Robert's death. I don't believe it would have been weeks -- days instead, I expect -- if Cersei believed Ned had evidence from Catelyn and Winterfell of their perfidy. Instead... he seemed to think the Imp had done something bad, which Cersei knew was not the case, so her secret remained safe (so far as she could see). But let that suspicion prey on them that Bran identified Jaime and Cersei as having been making love and that they tried to murder him... that would certainly have changed the timeline.

brashcandy,

it's mindboggling that Cat could not see this

Does it say anywhere that she didn't see it? That she didn't act as she did because her concerns were greater than Tywin Lannister launching a private war of retribution against the Tullys?

[lyvyathan]

I must write things in a more complex way than I imagined. Because when I say the knowledge of Catelyn's returning from King's Landing was explosive, and then immediately segue into, "if Cersei learned that Catelyn..." then it seems to me that the obvious inference is that I'm talking about Tyrion carrying that information to Cersei, not him murdering Catelyn.

AND? That's ACTUALLY TO THE GOOD BECAUSE...

I'm joking there. All caps is silly.

But in any case, I mean, how much warning did Ned need? It's unfortunate that Jaime Lannister jumped into matters in such a way, but you'll note that the "incoming wrath of the Lannisters" did not include killing Ned and his daughters, because they still did not know that Ned had learned anything from Catelyn. Since they didn't know Catelyn had ever actually been there. As far as Cat's concerned, mission accomplished. (And, in any case, Jaime's attack has a silver lining: it prevented Ned from haring off to the Mummer's Ford to get ambushed and captured).

Dude, seriously? "How much warning did Ned need?"

According to Cat - very little. In the first place Catelyn had very poor consideration for any need to warn Ned about the consequences of her action. She didn't even bother hiring a rider to take a message to Ned. And you would remember that Ned was warned by the Nightwatch recruiter who did so at his own initiative, not by Cat.

C'mon, can we stop with the Catelyn adoration here for a second? Can you please seriously consider the implications of Catelyn's decision to capture Tyrion ?

What about the Riverrun peasants who got slaughtered by Tywin's troops in revenge?

I mean why are you even mentioning the Mummer's Ford ambush which was setup by Tywin only because Catelyn's rash actions?

If you want to keep on gilding crap and calling it solid gold, fine, go ahead, but don't expect people to take you seriously.

[Ran]

She didn't even bother hiring a rider to take a message to Ned.

Hardly something she could do, under the circumstances, since all the men who she could trust were needed to escort her. "Hiring a rider"... that'd be hiring a rider to give the message to the Lannisters, too, yes? Asking Yoren was out of the question -- the Watch takes no part, yes? That was Yoren acting beyond his vows (and good on him).

I don't think she really had a choice as far as that goes.

What about the Riverrun peasants who got slaughtered by Tywin's troops in revenge?

What about them? That's on Tywin and Gregor and the like. Ned and Catelyn and Tyrion and Robert -- they're not responsible for the misdeeds of others.

I mean why are you even mentioning the Mummer's Ford ambush which was setup by Tywin only because Catelyn's rash actions?

I don't know -- because it is a silver lining, maybe? Again, Catelyn isn't responsible for the crimes of others.

C'mon, can we stop with the Catelyn adoration here for a second? Can you please seriously consider the implications of Catelyn's decision to capture Tyrion ?

If you want to keep on gilding crap and calling it solid gold, fine, go ahead, but don't expect people to take you seriously.

This stuff? Not really worth responding to.

[Free Northman]

Personally I don't understand Catelyn apologists.

It seems clear that if Martin had wanted to portray her more sympathetically, he could have done so.

He did not.

Instead, he portrays her as a stubborn, bitter, vengeful and selfish woman.

It is worth remembering that SHE was the one who urged Ned to go south in the first place, when his instincts rightly screamed at him to refuse Robert and stay in the North.

[brashcandy]

Ran,

Does it say anywhere that she didn't see it? That she didn't act as she did because her concerns were greater than Tywin Lannister launching a private war of retribution against the Tullys?

Therein lies the problem. Cat was in no position to make her concerns greater than those of House Lannister, especially not with her children still in KL and on the flimsy evidence given to her by an old suitor. Your argument is that she flees to the Vale with Tyrion as a defensive strategy to offset the risk of Tyrion reporting that she had been in KL. This doesn't make sense. You don't contain a leak in a boat by blowing it even further apart, and this is analogous to what Cat did by kidnapping Tyrion. There were many other options available to Cat at the moment when Tyrion saw her, but she chose the vengeful route and decided to arrest him instead. Again, it's not surprising given Cat's characterization that this is the choice she is most comfortable making, but it's lacking in plain old common sense. When she got up and made the speech to the Tully bannermen about honouring her father and doing their duty, it was a powerful scene and reflected Cat's intelligence and strength of character, but it was the wrong act to play.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

There were many other options available to Cat at the moment when Tyrion saw her, but she chose the vengeful route and decided to arrest him instead. Again, it's not surprising given Cat's characterization that this is the choice she is most comfortable making, but it's lacking in plain old common sense. When she got up and made the speech to the Tully bannermen about honouring her father and doing their duty, it was a powerful scene and reflected Cat's intelligence and strength of character, but it was the wrong act to play.

Such as...? The man tried to kill her son, prob twice. He waddled his way up to her face and said "hello Lady Stark" while turning his head in imp fashion. Cat belives LF almost 100%, foolish, yet it is what it is. So what should she have done in that inn? Talk to him of the weather? Religion? Marillion's voice? Or she could ignore him, and let him waddle his way back to KL, aka the lion's den, where "justice" will never commence

[Melifeather]

She could have sent Ser Rodrick under the guise of Winterfell business or anything. She personally did not have to go.

I agree. She could have sent Ser Rodrick. But, I think GRRM lays this out in a logical manner as to how the decision was made. Catelyn gathers a small group of her people to tell them about the knife and who she thinks it belongs to, thanks to Littlefinger. She doesn't trust using a raven as ravens can fall into the wrong hands. She needs to send someone who will be believed. I agree Ned would have believed Ser Rodrick, but Catelyn comes to the conclusion that it must be herself. That no one else suggests sending Ser Rodrick alone could be excused with that the idea didn't occur to anyone. That could happen in a real conversation as well, especially since Catelyn is their liege lady making the decision, they would be more likely to go along with her plan.

Ha. Really? Then what did you mean when you said:

The obvious inference from your statement - is that if Tyrion the Dwarf was the cold-blooded killer who hires assasins to kill little boys at night, then she would naturally be in fear of her safety from that scary dwarf and -as you mention - what he could do to Ned and her two lovely daughters.

OK, so you believe she was worried about her kids in KL. Duh, how is kidnapping Tyrion and dragging him all the way to the Eyrie going to do anything other than excerbate the tension between House Stark and House Lannister? You totally forget that the kidnap was done in OPEN PUBLIC - unless Cat could kill every single witness in that inn - there was NO WAY she could prevent the news of the incident from reaching Tywin in Casterly Rock or Cersei/Jamie at KL.

Now how is she going to warn Ned+ at KL, her father/brother or the people of the North of the incoming wrath of the Lannisters??? She has NO WAY of silencing the witnesses in that packed inn. and she took the most dangerous path to the Vale - the one path where she easily have been killed or badly injured which would also have prevented her from sending word of her stupid act to her side.

Now it would seem its you who don't wish to debate about it. Calling a detractor's argument as tired and false is not the same as discrediting it with sound logic. Then again, I'm not expecting that from people who love Catelyn.

You know...why do you have to be like this? Your attitude towards other's opinions is disrespectful. Just because you feel strongly about your own opinion doesn't mean you're right.

Personally I don't understand Catelyn apologists.

It seems clear that if Martin had wanted to portray her more sympathetically, he could have done so.

He did not.

Instead, he portrays her as a stubborn, bitter, vengeful and selfish woman.

It is worth remembering that SHE was the one who urged Ned to go south in the first place, when his instincts rightly screamed at him to refuse Robert and stay in the North.

Stubborn and vengeful, yes, but bitter and selfish? I disagree. I think her actions are understandable, even if we may not agree with her actions, as a mother who's child was attacked twice. We have the luxury of hind sight here since we know how this all plays out. I think Catelyn felt she had to make an arrest once Tyrion discovered her presence. I think others here in this discussion agree with me when I say Catelyn thinks since Tyrion saw that she was at the Inn that he would report that he had seen her to people in Kings Landing and that it would ultimately reach Cersei's ears. So, she figures if they're going to find out that she was in the Riverlands either way, that it would be to her advantage to seize him. It would have been bad either way, but at least she had a member of the family who she believed attacked her son. It was an offensive move. We all know it proves to have consequences, but I don't think the end result was worse than if she hadn't seized him. If she hadn't seized him and Tyrion had returned to Kings Landing, Ned would have avoided the attack by Jaime, but he would have been in no less danger from Cersei as she would now know that the Stark's new "something". She wasn't sure they knew anything up to this point, but Catelyn's presence so near Kings Landing would have been a tip off. The end result would have been different, yes, but Ned and the girls would still have been in danger none the less. Catelyn knew they would be in danger and she took Tyrion, in her eyes, as a "legal" hostage to face charges. She had three logical places to take him: Winterfell, Riverrun and the Vale. She only took him to the Vale, because it was the least likely of the three.

And can we end with the "lovers and fans of Catelyn"? This discussion isn't because Catelyn is somebody's favorite, or whether or not her decision to take Tyrion was wise. We're discussing "why" she didn't believe Tyrion was innocent after he gave her such logical reasons for his innocence?

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I agree. She could have sent Ser Rodrick. But, I think GRRM lays this out in a logical manner as to how the decision was made. Catelyn gathers a small group of her people to tell them about the knife and who she thinks it belongs to, thanks to Littlefinger. She doesn't trust using a raven as ravens can fall into the wrong hands. She needs to send someone who will be believed. I agree Ned would have believed Ser Rodrick, but Catelyn comes to the conclusion that it must be herself. That no one else suggests sending Ser Rodrick alone could be excused with that the idea didn't occur to anyone. That could happen in a real conversation as well, especially since Catelyn is their liege lady making the decision, they would be more likely to go along with her plan.

As I said, we wouldn't have had a story if Catelyn/Ned had acted logically.

[Melifeather]

As I said, we wouldn't have had a story if Catelyn/Ned had acted logically.

I know, right! Otherwise the books would be very Disney-like, happy ending fairy tales! Wait, perhaps that's what some of the posters on this thread wanted all along! :grouphug:

[Ran]

I can tell you with absolute certainty that George does not see her as "bitter" and "selfish" in the way that you mean. Frankly, he rather dislikes the Sansa and Catelyn "bashing" that goes on, feeling that it presents a one-sided view of complex characters in complex situations. That's on the readers who, I think, are letting personal biases get in the way of clear-eyed reading of the text, or who aren't distinguishing between internal voice and external action very well.

[David Selig]

Ran, your patience when discussing this topic is amazing. I've been involved in these discussions for less than an year and I am already tired of repeating myself over and over again.

Personally I don't understand Catelyn apologists.

It seems clear that if Martin had wanted to portray her more sympathetically, he could have done so.

He did not.

Instead, he portrays her as a stubborn, bitter, vengeful and selfish woman.

It is worth remembering that SHE was the one who urged Ned to go south in the first place, when his instincts rightly screamed at him to refuse Robert and stay in the North.

Ned is a big boy. His apologists crack me up. If he didn't want to go to KL, it was his call.

And obviously not everyone agrees that Catelyn is "stubborn, bitter, vengeful and selfish".

[The hairy bear]

Instead, he portrays her as a stubborn, bitter, vengeful and selfish woman.

Are we really reading the same books?

You call stubborn to the woman that didn't say a word when sixteen year old son sent her at Seagard as an honored guest/prisoner. And instead of publicly discussing his son's decision, the thinks:

A king indeed, Catelyn thought, defeated. She could only hope that the trap he’d planned for Moat Cailin worked as well as the one in which he’d just caught her.

You call her bitter, but when the girl responsible of his son losing a big part of her army comes to her she trests her well and gives her as good council as she can. And then she thinks:

she thought about Jeyne. The girl did seem to have a good heart, just as Robb had said.

You call her vengeful, but in Catelyn's last chapter in AGOT, after the Lannisters haave just murdered her husband:

“Why not a peace?” Catelyn asked.

The lords looked at her, but it was Robb’s eyes she felt, his and his alone. “My lady, they murdered my lord father, your husband,” he said grimly. He unsheathed his longsword and laid it on the table before him, the bright steel on the rough wood. “This is the only peace I have for Lannisters.”

You call her selfish, yet that's what he thinks when he is traveling to meet king Renly:

She woke aching and alone and weary; weary of riding, weary of hurting, weary of duty. I want to weep, she thought. I want to be comforted. I’m so tired of being strong. I want to be foolish and frightened for once. Just for a small while, that’s all . . . a day . . . an hour . . .(...) It was her children she yearned after. One day, she promised herself as she lay abed, one day she would allow herself to be less than strong. But not today. It could not be today.

Defintitely, we are not reading the same books.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

It's not her presence. It's the fact that she was returning from King's Landing. Which was a safe enough thing to say when no one knew who she was. But when Tyrion saw her, that information became rather more dangerous. Seizing him appears to have made that particular information lost to the Lannisters: they just hear that Catelyn grabbed Tyrion and made off with him. After all, the big news is that Tyrion has been grabbed by Catelyn Stark -- no big surprise that the surrounding details are lost or garbled. Nowhere in the five novels do Cersei, Jaime, or Tywin (or any Lannister other than Tyrion) indicate knowledge that Catelyn had been in King's Landing. The sum of their knowledge of her whereabouts around that time begins and ends with the inn.

Ok I feel like we're talking past each other a bit. You've quoted half a sentence from me and responded to a point I wasn't making. I agree that letting Tyrion go to King's Landing with the knowledge that Catelyn was returning from King's Landing would have tipped the Lannisters off. My point is that if your goal is to not tip the Lannisters off, capturing one of them is blowing that goal to pieces. So maybe the Lannisters never realized she was in King's Landing, but they know something else now- Catelyn has captured a member of their House about a month after one of them pushed her son out a window. That is as big a tip off to what the Starks know as Tyrion returning to King's Landing with knowledge of Cat's having been in KL is.

I've always thought that Tywin was readying himself, actually. Nothing to do with Catelyn either way, just a side observation on the Lannisters rather than her.

Ok, so I didn't misread you. You're making this argument based on nothing in the text and it doesn't make sense to me. To believe that Tywin was preparing for war against the Riverlands before Catelyn's actions we would have to believe that either:

1) Tywin was in on Cersei's plans to kill Robert and/or her incest with Jaime and Tywin knew that Ned Stark was on the trail to discovering one or both of these things.

or

2) Tywin was planning to go into open rebellion against the Crown by making war against the Riverlands without the knowledge that Robert Baratheon would soon be dead.

There is absolutely no indication that Tywin knew what Cersei was up to and no indication that Tywin was planning on attacking the Riverlands without cause, thereby risking the wrath of Robert Baratheon- a man who is good at nothing except going to war. The only reason I can see for making this argument is to absolve Catelyn of her role in sparking the war between the Starks and the Lannisters, and the argument is being made with zero evidence.

Two weeks later, Tyrion waltzes in, tells his siblings, "I hope Lady Catelyn found King's Landing pleasant." And they say, "What? She wa-- oh, hell." And then they hurry up with trying to deal with Ned before he deals with them, because, after all, the only reason for Catelyn to have been in the city without their knowing it... is if the Starks were acting against them. Up to that point, Cersei knows Ned Stark is sniffing around, but it seems he's not really found anything. After that point, the suspicion has to be that he knows something dangerous to her, to Jaime, and to their children.

Again, I agree Tyrion's knowledge would have tipped the Lannisters off to what the Starks were up to. But so does the knowledge that Catelyn has taken Tyrion captive.

In the actual time line, weeks pass between the news of Tyrion's arrest and Robert's death. I don't believe it would have been weeks -- days instead, I expect -- if Cersei believed Ned had evidence from Catelyn and Winterfell of their perfidy. Instead... he seemed to think the Imp had done something bad, which Cersei knew was not the case, so her secret remained safe (so far as she could see). But let that suspicion prey on them that Bran identified Jaime and Cersei as having been making love and that they tried to murder him... that would certainly have changed the timeline.

How could Cersei's plan move faster, and how did Catelyn capturing Tyrion delay Cersei's plan when the course of events is this:

1) Catelyn captures Tyrion

2) Yoren races to KL to warn Ned, arriving before anyone else brings the news

3) Ned resigns as Hand over Dany before getting a chance to talk to Robert about the Tyrion situation

4) The rest of the city finds out, or at least Jaime.

5) Jaime attacks Ned

6) Ned wakes up, Robert decides to go hunting because he is a terrible King

7) Ned figures it all out, warns Cersei like a naive fool

8) Robert dies

Now, how could Tyrion strolling in a couple of weeks later- certainly after a longer period of time than the information about the capture took to travel to KL- have sped up the above process? It couldn't have. If Catelyn felt what she was doing was a defensive strategy, she was obviously wrong. Instead of Tyrion showing up and telling his siblings that Catelyn was in the city, the news arrives quickly that Catelyn has taken Tyrion captive- sparking conflict within King's Landing and with Tywin in the Riverlands.

Catelyn made a foolish decision. If she had not made that decision, the war would have come anyway. I'm not trying to say she caused the war, but I think you are going too far in saying that capturing Tyrion was actually a good decision, and that it produced a positive outcome that gave Ned more time to investigate. It clearly didn't. Catelyn's actions tipped off the Lannisters just as much as Tyrion's knowledge would have, and it also sparked Jaime to attack Ned, and Tywin to attack the Riverlands.

When Catelyn met Tyrion at inn, she was faced with two decision: bad and worse. Bad was letting Tyrion slip by and inform his siblings that she had been in the city. This would have tipped them off that the Starks were on to them. Worse was capturing Tyrion. This not only tipped his siblings off that the Starks were on to them, but also incurred the wrath of Tywin Lannister and brought the simmering conflict to a full boil.

I'm not really sure what this insistence that Catelyn's decision was intelligent and produced a positive outcome is all about. Ned Stark is one of my top five favorite characters. He made some really major mistakes. I don't really care for Catelyn, but a lot of people like her quite a bit. That doesn't change the fact that she made her own major mistakes. Capturing Tyrion was one of them.

[Ran]

Busy screencapping, but a quick response to one bit here which I think is key:

This would have tipped them off that the Starks were on to them.

Except it didn't.

Because Tyrion is far from Cersei's thoughts, very far from her plots, and utterly out into space when it comes to the events surrounding Bran, the fact that the Starks grabbed Tyrion of all people was almost certainly reassuring, as far as that goes. The Starks were, so far as Cersei could tell, no closer to the real secret, and were on a wild goose chase concerning Tyrion.

But change that tune to Tyrion walking into King's Landing and telling Cersei that Catelyn was on the way back from King's Landing, suddenly she does think the Starks are onto her.

As to the time line, again, quite a few weeks pass between the news arriving and the coup -- according to Errant Bard's global timeline, it seems about a month passes. I expect it would have been shorter than that, if Cersei believed the Starks were on to her because of Catelyn's secret meeting with Ned in King's Landing being revealed to her by her brother.

[lyvyathan]

Stubborn and vengeful, yes, but bitter and selfish? I disagree. I think her actions are understandable, even if we may not agree with her actions, as a mother who's child was attacked twice. We have the luxury of hind sight here since we know how this all plays out. I think Catelyn felt she had to make an arrest once Tyrion discovered her presence. I think others here in this discussion agree with me when I...

Hey, maybe it might help if we get some presepective. This is a fantasy novel we are discussing here - one where there are dragons, White Walkers, and a witch with magic uterus, etc... its really just a world populated by caricatures. Now there's nothing wrong about liking "caricatures" but it quite another to assume that they are "real people", althought we may discuss them as such.

If you can step back from the "Cat love" you'll find her to be a character who - like many others in the book - is a deeply flawed person. Cat is driven by two things - "self-confidence" and "protect her family - ie Ned and children". The problem is that she isn't a terribly bright person - she's remarkably very naive and too trusting - and that's why she refuses to even consider Tyrion's arguments.

After that whole incident in the Vale, when Tyrion goes out of his way to save Cat's life and the horrible realization that her sister was mentally unsound - surely, she might have stopped and considered "Bugger, what if LF was lying to me all this time? What if this whole Lannister vs Stark thing is a big setup?" None. Zip. Nada.

So she keeps on acting on her own initiative and not thinking too carefully or reflecting about it. And that's why she pleads for her side to parley - to help protect Sansa and Arya. And that's why decides to help Jamie Lannister escape. And that's why her transformation into Stoneheart is a logical progression.

The tragedy for Cat is that in her determination to "protect her family", she causes - through her own erronous choices - its destruction. My bet for the next book is that she will somehow be responsible for Sansa's death or near fatal injury. (I like Sansa btw).

Her actions are mirrored by Cersei who is also determined to "protect her kids" and a strong misplaced belief in her own abilities.

[lyvyathan]

Hardly something she could do, under the circumstances, since all the men who she could trust were needed to escort her. "Hiring a rider"... that'd be hiring a rider to give the message to the Lannisters, too, yes? Asking Yoren was out of the question -- the Watch takes no part, yes? That was Yoren acting beyond his vows (and good on him).

I don't think she really had a choice as far as that goes.

But this is where you don't seem to understand. Cat does have a choice. She can decide to ignore Tyrion and not "arrest or kidnap" him.

Once she had decided to embark upon this new course of action - she had to make haste to inform her husband of her actions - at least before word of the capture reached Tywin or the Lannisters twins at.KL. She already knew that the Lannisters were pretty violent, so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that retailiation was sure to follow.

But the only things running through her brain was to

1. capture the dwarf whom she held responsible for Bran's attempted assasinations.

2. evade the Lannister rescue parties by going to Eyrie and the least likely route.

3. get to the Eyrie where her sister would somehow magically produce the evidence which would uncover the "Lannister conspiracy" and solve everything.

Wow, what a great plan. What comes next? Oh, release Jamie Lannister from prison and protect him with an escort of a female soldier and an elderly knight and hope that they may make it safely through several war zones before reaching Lannister lines. And then believe hopefully that Tywin Lannister or that dwarf son whom you kidnapped and nearly got killed will be nice enough to release your two precious daughters. Fantastic.

[lyvyathan]

Such as...? The man tried to kill her son, prob twice.

Says who? The evidence was so flimsy that Ned chooses to ignore it when he was probably in the best position to order his arrest.