134 replies to this topic

[lyvyathan]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 08 March 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

But Catelyn is smart enough that she should be able to weigh the fairly meager cost of the Lannisters in the city knowing she was there against the fairly enormous cost of seizing a son of Tywin Lannister. And Catelyn obviously does understand the repercussions of capturing Tyrion, it's why she flees to the close-by Eyrie instead of far-away Winterfell. Capturing Tyrion is not leverage, it's casus belli- and Cat knows it. And none of this is a reason to hate Cat, Ned's actions lead to a whole lot more deaths in the long run than Cat's do. But I don't think it is fair to say that she was making a shrewd move here, or that she was not at all motivated by revenge. She was doing something dumb, and she was doing it at least in part for revenge.

I agree with some of what you said. But I think a re-reading of the book make change your opinion.

She takes Tyrion to the Eyrie because
1. she hoped to elude the Lannister chase party who would be going towards Winterfell and Riverrun, the 2 most obvious places for her to go.
2. taking Tyrion to the Eyrie would unite her with her sister who sparked the whole conspiracy story with that midnight letter. In the book, it is written that Catelyn believed her sister would have the key information to solving the Lannister Consipracy and ultimately uncovering why there were 2 attempts on Bran's life + the death of the old Hand. She believed that Lysa would be able to effectively question Tyrion and solve the whole mess - yeah, like a Murder She wrote story ala Angela Lanisbury.

3. She doesn't fully realize the warlike implications of kidnapping Tyrion because otherwise she wouldn't have done it. Kidnapping( or killing) Tyrion in open public was the worse possible act she could done. She had no ability to warn her husband and her daughters - not to mention the people of the North or Riverrun of her idiotic actions. But Tywin and the Lannisters would know about the news soon - unless she killed every single witness in that inn.

[lyvyathan]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 08 March 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

She wasn't in the best mind set during AGOT, can you blame her? And of course with hind sight it was the wrong move, but to argue with hindsight is kinda ridiculous.

Just because someone went through some trauma doesn't give them the right to go start a war.

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 08 March 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

KS "my bro was arrested under your wife's orders"
Ned "your bro was arrested under my order"

I was wondering when someone would bring that up. You realize that Ned lied don't you? Let me explain, as we already know - from reading the book - Ned did not instruct Catelyn to arrest Tyrion. However, he HAD to lie and defend her so that her actions would be legally justified.

If Ned had said, "I had no part in her actions." Then it would allow the Lannister to exact legal justice against her for the unauthorized act. Now, we know that the Lannisters don't give a damn and would torch half of the North and the Riverlands as a F.Y.I.F.Y. But its quite another thing for Tywin to legally force Robert to punish Catelyn for kidnapping Tyrion, ie. have her humiliated in public etc.. or worse - remember the fate of Sansa's direwolf?

By covering for her, he gave her the protection of his Office - that way, she couldn't be prosecuted at court.

Edited by lyvyathan, 09 March 2012 - 06:31 AM.

[Thrice the Hound]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 08 March 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

Would there be a hearing thou? Why walk into the lions den when your sister is a few yards east of the Kingsroad?

Well you couldn't exactly call what Lysa did a hearing either. Cat shouldn't have tried to take the law into her own hands by having Tyrion tried anywhere else but KL. It's not like the man she thinks is responsible is a commoner, it is Tyrion Lannister - a very very politically sensitive situation and she should have known better in my opinion. As for if nothing came of it, Ned could have packed himself up and gone back North and told Robert to shove his handship up his arse and it's war. That would have been cool with me.

Edited by Thrice the Hound, 09 March 2012 - 06:47 AM.

[Ran]

lyvythan,

You have a habit of coming back a few days down the road repeating the same flawed, tired arguments to justify your position, ignoring not only the text at times but, apparently, ignoring what those trying to discuss the issue are saying as well.

I never said Catelyn was afraid for her life. Go back and read (and re-read) what I wrote, and look at what I say Catelyn is afraid of. It's not her life she's afraid of: it's the life of her husband and daughters that's she concerned about if Cersei Lannister concludes that Catelyn had been in King's Landing in secret to reveal that she had evidence that the Lannisters were behind Bran's fall or the attempt on Bran's life.

Others seem to get it, but you never seem to do so. I've said this about half a hundred different ways by now, and still, you crop up saying she seizes Tyrion because she wants to kill him, ignoring the fact that her first move is to hide from him and her relief that they're so far from him that he hasn't spotted them.

As to your "vengeful much" remark, bear in mind that Tyrion immediately notes that, obviously, his death was not the point, because otherwise he'd be dead already. This back and forth between them is nothing bot posturing by both sides, trying to get a better handle on one another. One can't help but notice that when Lysa takes over Tyrion's trial and all, that it's Catelyn cautioning Lysa against killing Tyrion -- the point for her is not, in fact, Tyrion's death; it's justice for the Starks and the protection of the realm from the apparent Lannister conspiracy, first and foremost.

Does she believe Tyrion a murderous villain? Of course. Would she like to see him dead based on her belief? Yes. But she's a law-abiding type who believes justice will out, and so when she acts, it's not because she wants to murder him, it's not because she's afraid for her own life, it's because she believes he now has no choice but to seize him to prevent harm to her family.

"Family, Duty, Honor". You can pretty much understand everything Catelyn ever does, good or bad, in terms of the Tully motto.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Melisandra, on 06 March 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

I agree with you that Catelyn was a skillful player. Her military scheme to draw out Renly to distract Tywin was spot on. She didn't forsee his killing by Stannis shadow, but the strategy was sound. She also gave Robb good advice whether he took it or not, and it was her negotiations that gained them access over the Twins. Her only mistakes had to do with her belief in "honor".

I'd like to think that if her sister hadn't blundered with the trial the outcome would have been different. Tyrion would have remained a prisoner even if she did come to believe he was innocent. She could have used him as a ransom to get Ned and the girls. I wonder if at the time she realized what she lost? But then again, it would have been "honorable" to release Tyrion once she was convinced of his innocence and she probably would have went that route.

Do you really believe that Cersei/Tywin would have traded Tyrion for Ned and the girls?  No way in hell would they have traded for Tyrion. If Joffrey hadn't beheaded Ned, they would have traded for Jaime.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

lyvyathan, on 07 March 2012 - 02:16 AM, said:

LF wasn't just sick. He was practically torn in half by Brandon's blade. I don't know about you but if I find a childhood friend who has a sidejob working as a pimp and drug dealer - I gotta be pretty desperate to trust the dude 100%.

He was not practically torn in half by Brandon's blade. Brandon scarred him as a reminder, not to overstep his bounds. The way I pictured it, Brandon smacked down tiny Petyr like a nat, while Brandon had him on the ground ready to kill him, Cat begged, so Brandon cut him in order to teach him a lesson and put him his "place". Not that he severely injured him to the brink of death. A nasty cut, yes. practically torn in half, no.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Ran, on 08 March 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

Again, no. She was not motivated by vengeance. If she was motivated by vegneance, she would not have tried to hide her presence from Tyrion in hopes that he would not notice her at the inn and therefore she would be able to slip out without actually having to do anything.

When he spots her, and only after a positive effort on her part to not be spotted, does she act. What, then, is motivating her? It's not vengeance: it's fear. If Tyrion has done what Littlefinger has said he's done, in a way that has convinced both her and Ned, then his knowledge that she was coming up the road from King's Landing was explosive. After all, her visit had been deeply secret. If Cersei learned that Catelyn was secretly in King's Landing... well, that leads to a natural conclusion, doesn't it? She came to tell Ned something that required secrecy, like her son was awake and he just blabbed everything about what he saw, or they captured the catspaw and now they know we tried to kill Bran, etc.

Or so Catelyn imagined. Arresting Tyrion on suspicion of conspiracy to commit murder provided the Starks leverage, and prevented the Lannisters from learning that she had been in the city in secret. And note that as far as that  goes, it seems to work: Cersei Lannister never seems to realize that Catelyn had met secretly with Ned. That's in part due to Catelyn's actions.

So. No, the evidence is very clear, the arrest was not a matter of revenge. It was a defensive action, not an offensive one.

That one tiny secret really doesn't matter being that everyone knew that Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion and was headed toward the Vale, which is why Jaime and Tywin mounted up in the first place. Especially that in the secret meeting Ned tells Catelyn to go home. Her traveling to KL in the first place was her biggest mistakes. But, we needed that to happen for the story to develop.

Edited by Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, 09 March 2012 - 01:47 PM.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

How is it kidnap when Catelyn Tully arrests someone in the Riverlands, for a murder "he committed" within the North under the roof of Carelyn Stark? And then transport him to jail in the Vale under Lord Roberts decree?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 09 March 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

How is it kidnap when Catelyn Tully arrests someone in the Riverlands, for a murder "he committed" within the North under the roof of Carelyn Stark? And then transport him to jail in the Vale under Lord Roberts decree?

It doesn't really matter what we call it. What matters is what Tywin Lannister is going to see it as. To decide that it is better to bring the wrath of House Lannister upon you by 'arresting' Tywin's son than to have Cersei and Jaime know you were in King's Landing is an incredibly foolish choice.

Edited by OnionAhaiReborn, 09 March 2012 - 01:50 PM.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 09 March 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

How is it kidnap when Catelyn Tully arrests someone in the Riverlands, for a murder "he committed" within the North under the roof of Carelyn Stark? And then transport him to jail in the Vale under Lord Roberts decree?

What murder? At that point, the only person dead was the would be assassin.

Edited by Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, 09 March 2012 - 02:09 PM.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 09 March 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

What murder? At that point, the only person dead was the would be assassin.

fine how about "the accused orchestrator of an attempted murder on two separate occasions."

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 09 March 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

fine how about "the accused orchestrator of an attempted murder on two separate occasions."

Much better.

[Ran]

Ororo727,

Quote

That one tiny secret really doesn't matter ...

Sure it does. That tiny secret is what keeps Cersei Lannister from moving against Robert and Ned immediately, out of fear for herself and her children. Had she known Catelyn was on her way back from King's Landing, rather than on her way to (or, perhaps, on the way to Riverrun to see her ailing father -- who knows?), the only obvious conclusion was that the Starks knew about what Bran saw and it was only a matter of time before they told Robert. She'd have to strike first. That's very much in her persona.

Certainly, the inevitable war launches with surprising alacrity -- almost as if the Lannisters were preparing to do just that anyway... but it's left to Ned to truly screw the pooch and give up the fact that he knows Cersei's secrets. Very shortly after that, Robert is dead and he is imprisoned. Catelyn succeeded at staving that off long enough... for Ned to actually get the knowledge they were after, and to get into position to make use of it effectively.

Alas, he made a mess of it. Not because he gave Cersei the opportunity to flee with her children -- it wouldn't have been Ned, otherwise -- but because after seeing that she was not fleeing, he thought nothing of it, and then proceeded to fritter away opportunities to take charge of matters as Robert lay dying.

But none of that is Catelyn's fault. Her actions may have started the war earlier, but they kept her family alive longer in AGoT, and that's all she could really do.

[Stark@heart]

She could have said she was going to Riverrun to see her ailing father, a very good cover story indeed.  Alas, Catelyn is more like Edmure than the Blackfish and didn't think things through.

[Feather Crystal]

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 09 March 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Do you really believe that Cersei/Tywin would have traded Tyrion for Ned and the girls?  No way in hell would they have traded for Tyrion. If Joffrey hadn't beheaded Ned, they would have traded for Jaime.

Cersei hated Tyrion, Tywin was embarrassed to have fathered him, but eventually gained some admiration for his intelligence, and Jaime actually had affection for him. However, even if all three hated him, they would have traded "someone" for him just because of their fierce family loyalty. He's their family to hate, but they would never tolerate anybody else keeping him. Why do you think Jaime and the Kingsguard attacked Ned after Catelyn took him? Cersei told Joffrey that, "the enemy is everyone but us."...the "us" being Lannisters.

[Feather Crystal]

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 09 March 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

Her traveling to KL in the first place was her biggest mistakes. But, we needed that to happen for the story to develop.

I disagree. She had to go to Kings Landing to warn Ned that she had reasons to believe the Lannister's hired a hitman to slit Bran's throat as she didn't trust using a raven. Even with her warning though, being the honorable Ned that he was, he ended up dead. He was too slow in learning how to "play" and by the time he did try, by agreeing to hire the Gold Cloaks via Littlefinger, he did it so awkwardly. It was just so against his nature that it resulted in his death. If he hadn't insisted that Stannis had the right, I think Littlefinger would have made sure the Gold Cloaks would have been on his side for real.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Melisandra, on 09 March 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

I disagree. She had to go to Kings Landing to warn Ned that she had reasons to believe the Lannister's hired a hitman to slit Bran's throat as she didn't trust using a raven. Even with her warning though, being the honorable Ned that he was, he ended up dead. He was too slow in learning how to "play" and by the time he did try, by agreeing to hire the Gold Cloaks via Littlefinger, he did it so awkwardly. It was just so against his nature that it resulted in his death. If he hadn't insisted that Stannis had the right, I think Littlefinger would have made sure the Gold Cloaks would have been on his side for real.

She could have sent Ser Rodrick under the guise of Winterfell business or anything. She personally did not have to go.

Edited by Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, 10 March 2012 - 01:16 AM.

[lyvyathan]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 09 March 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

How is it kidnap when Catelyn Tully arrests someone in the Riverlands, for a murder "he committed" within the North under the roof of Carelyn Stark? And then transport him to jail in the Vale under Lord Roberts decree?

Because the evidence was so freaking flimsy. Ned, of all people, could have immediately ordered the arrest of Tyrion after he received the blade and the testimony of LF - but he didn't. Why. Because there was not enough evidence to charge the dwarf with.

You forget that Catelyn is just the wife of the Hand, not the Hand itself. While a certain amount of respect and status gives her certain privildeges - it does not allow her to go arresting anyone she feels like - esp. the son of the most powerful warlord in the 7 Kingdoms.

When Jamie Lannister slaughtered Ned's men and injured him - he didn't hang around despite the fact that Ned was technically not "The Hand" at the time of incident. He ran away. Why? Because you don't go around killing another faction's troops in *open public* - repeat, in open public - and not expect retribution to follow.

[lyvyathan]

Ran, on 09 March 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

lyvythan,

You have a habit of coming back a few days down the road repeating the same flawed, tired arguments to justify your position, ignoring not only the text at times but, apparently, ignoring what those trying to discuss the issue are saying as well.

I never said Catelyn was afraid for her life. Go back and read (and re-read) what I wrote, and look at what I say Catelyn is afraid of. It's not her life she's afraid of: it's the life of her husband and daughters that's she concerned about if Cersei Lannister concludes that Catelyn had been in King's Landing in secret to reveal that she had evidence that the Lannisters were behind Bran's fall or the attempt on Bran's life.

Ha. Really? Then what did you mean when you said:

Ran, on 08 March 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

When he spots her, and only after a positive effort on her part to not be spotted, does she act. What, then, is motivating her? It's not vengeance: it's fear. If Tyrion has done what Littlefinger has said he's done, in a way that has convinced both her and Ned, then his knowledge that she was coming up the road from King's Landing was explosive. After all, her visit had been deeply secret. If Cersei learned that Catelyn was secretly in King's Landing... well, that leads to a natural conclusion, doesn't it? She came to tell Ned something that required secrecy, like her son was awake and he just blabbed everything about what he saw, or they captured the catspaw and now they know we tried to kill Bran, etc.

The obvious inference from your statement - is that if Tyrion the Dwarf was the cold-blooded killer who hires assasins to kill little boys at night, then she would naturally be in fear of her safety from that scary dwarf and -as you mention - what he could do to Ned and her two lovely daughters.

OK, so you believe she was worried about her kids in KL. Duh, how is kidnapping Tyrion and dragging him all the way to the Eyrie going to do anything other than excerbate the tension between House Stark and House Lannister? You totally forget that the kidnap was done in OPEN PUBLIC - unless Cat could kill every single witness in that inn - there was NO WAY she could prevent the news of the incident from reaching Tywin in Casterly Rock or Cersei/Jamie at KL.

Now how is she going to warn Ned+ at KL, her father/brother or the people of the North of the incoming wrath of the Lannisters??? She has NO WAY of silencing the witnesses in that packed inn. and  she took the most dangerous path to the Vale - the one path where she easily have been killed or badly injured which would also have prevented her from sending word of her stupid act to her side.

Now it would seem its you who don't wish to debate about it. Calling a detractor's argument as tired and false is not the same as discrediting it with sound logic. Then again, I'm not expecting that from people who love Catelyn.

Edited by lyvyathan, 10 March 2012 - 09:06 AM.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Ran, on 09 March 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

Ororo727,



Sure it does. That tiny secret is what keeps Cersei Lannister from moving against Robert and Ned immediately, out of fear for herself and her children. Had she known Catelyn was on her way back from King's Landing, rather than on her way to (or, perhaps, on the way to Riverrun to see her ailing father -- who knows?), the only obvious conclusion was that the Starks knew about what Bran saw and it was only a matter of time before they told Robert. She'd have to strike first. That's very much in her persona.

Certainly, the inevitable war launches with surprising alacrity -- almost as if the Lannisters were preparing to do just that anyway... but it's left to Ned to truly screw the pooch and give up the fact that he knows Cersei's secrets. Very shortly after that, Robert is dead and he is imprisoned. Catelyn succeeded at staving that off long enough... for Ned to actually get the knowledge they were after, and to get into position to make use of it effectively.

Alas, he made a mess of it. Not because he gave Cersei the opportunity to flee with her children -- it wouldn't have been Ned, otherwise -- but because after seeing that she was not fleeing, he thought nothing of it, and then proceeded to fritter away opportunities to take charge of matters as Robert lay dying.

But none of that is Catelyn's fault. Her actions may have started the war earlier, but they kept her family alive longer in AGoT, and that's all she could really do.

We can assume that they figured that part out, how could Ned have given Cat the order to arrest Tyrion? It's not a coincidence that she just happened to be on the King's road and Ned giving the order to arrest Tyrion? Would they think that he sent her a raven and instructed her to travel the KR in hopes of finding Tyrion on his way back from the wall? Her actions did not keep her family safer, Ned was injured as a direct result of her actions. If she had stayed in WF and sent Ned a message by Ser Rodrick or anyone else, it would have given Ned time to investigate without starting a war. When Ned discovered the children's true parentage, he send a rider to Stannis, he didn't go himself.